NVRAM experience -- $1.50-$2.00 chips

(Topic ID: 141588)

NVRAM experience -- $1.50-$2.00 chips


By lyonsden

2 years ago



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There are 636 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 13.
#1 2 years ago

I'm probably late to the NVRAM game, but thought I share my experience. I bought 5 chips of FM1608-120-PG from EBay for about $30. They showed up today. I (gently) took out the batteries and popped out U212 from one of my whitestar pins, put in an FM1608, powered the game back up, changed some settings (e.g., free play), rebooted the game, and everything worked like a champ. Couldn't have been easier!

Link to Ebay: ebay.com link

EDIT: There are some links in this thread for NVRAM (Aliexpress) that costs around $2.50. People have received these and have reported that they work.

UPDATE: July 27 2017
Here is a link for someone selling these for $1.50: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/FM1608-120-PG-FM1608-120-P-DIP/32596337719.html

#2 2 years ago
Quoted from lyonsden:

I'm probably late to the NVRAM game, but thought I share my experience. I bought 5 chips of FM1608-120-PG from EBay for about $30. They showed up today. I (gently) took out the batteries and popped out U212 from one of my whitestar pins, put in an FM1608, powered the game back up, changed some settings (e.g., free play), rebooted the game, and everything worked like a champ. Couldn't have been easier!
Link to Ebay: ebay.com link

Thanks for your experience and feedback

4 weeks later
#3 2 years ago

Just an update -- I used one of these NVRAMs in my Baywatch. The old chip is socketed, so it took 5 min to replace. No problems and BW is now batteryless. Recently bought some sockets to use in WPC games and will report back.

#4 2 years ago

im sure its been covered but how long can you go between power ups , and retain the data.

#5 2 years ago
Quoted from Astill:

im sure its been covered but how long can you go between power ups , and retain the data.

30+ years...

#6 2 years ago

okay so its not like the memory caps that need power every so often?

#7 2 years ago
Quoted from Astill:

okay so its not like the memory caps that need power every so often?

Nope. Different memory tech altogether.

#8 2 years ago

Just replaced the memory chip in my Theatre of Magic. It is a bit more work than a Whitestar or Sega as you need to desolder the old chip. I added a socket for the new chip too, just in case I need to replace it in the future for whatever reason. Overall, it took about 30 minutes to do, start to finish (but I do have a desoldering gun) and worked without any problem.

Old chip on board in game:
IMG_4781.JPG

Board out of game. Chip to be removed is the Sharp LH5268A
IMG_4784.JPG

Old chip removed and socket added

New chip in socket. Chip is Ramtron FM1608-120-PG
IMG_4787.JPG

#9 2 years ago

In case anyone wants to buy sockets for these chips (10 for $1.50): ebay.com link

#10 2 years ago

Another update: I just added this to Bride of Pinbot without any problems.

Original in game
MOSEL chip to be replaced
Chip removed
Socket added
Ramtron added

#11 2 years ago
Quoted from lyonsden:

Another update: I just added this to Bride of Pinbot without any problems.
Original in game
MOSEL chip to be replaced
Chip removed
Socket added
Ramtron added

Nicely done, wish I could do board work like that.

#12 2 years ago

Just ordered some

#13 2 years ago
Quoted from lyonsden:

I (gently) took out the batteries and popped out U212 from one of my whitestar pins, put in an FM1608

You think you could have left the batteries in and changed out the chips, powered the game on and then take out the batteries? It seems this would keep your settings and your scores. Or would this not work and it'll mess something up?

#14 2 years ago
Quoted from phillymadison:

You think you could have left the batteries in and changed out the chips, powered the game on and then take out the batteries? It seems this would keep your settings and your scores. Or would this not work and it'll mess something up?

No... the ram chip that retains that memory is what you are changing out

#15 2 years ago

I changed all my pins to NVRAM except for my TZ and it was the best thing I did. No worries with batteries for very little cost.

#16 2 years ago

FYI: Be careful buying from that seller (hkutsource) on ebay. They have been selling counterfeit IC's for years.

#17 2 years ago

Sounds like a good hack. How does NVRAM with no battery handle Time & Date?

Anything else lost when you get rid of batteries?

#18 2 years ago
Quoted from roc-noc:

Sounds like a good hack. How does NVRAM with no battery handle Time & Date?
Anything else lost when you get rid of batteries?

Everything is saved as it normally does with batteries. Time/date, all settings, high scores, audits, etc. The old chip requires power from the batteries to keep its bits flipped correctly, the NVRAM does not require external power (NV == non-volatile). Of course, that means that everything is lost when you change out the chips, but it it lets someone else be grand champion for a while.

#19 2 years ago
Quoted from roc-noc:

Sounds like a good hack. How does NVRAM with no battery handle Time & Date?
Anything else lost when you get rid of batteries?

I read that the game's time moves in real time, but if you cut off power, it stops keeping track of time. If you shut the game off at say 12pm, power it back on in 6 hours, the game still thinks it's 12PM.

#20 2 years ago
Quoted from roffels:

I read that the game's time moves in real time, but if you cut off power, it stops keeping track of time. If you shut the game off at say 12pm, power it back on in 6 hours, the game still thinks it's 12PM.

You are correct.

#21 2 years ago

I just put in my last chip (NGG). Easy as pie and worked without any problems.

Board in game with old chip (located next to chip with blue tape)
IMG_4794.JPG

Board out of game with old chip
IMG_4795.JPG

Old chip desoldered and ready for removal. Definitely check out TerryB's guide to soldering for tips and tricks on how to desolder. I learned several tricks from his thread.
IMG_4796.JPG

Old chip removed
IMG_4798.JPG

Socket added
IMG_4799.JPG

New Ramtron chip installed in socket
IMG_4800.JPG

#22 2 years ago

So far I've replaced the RAM chip that stores game settings in 5 games with Ramtron NVRAM:

Nascar
Baywatch
Theatre of Magic
Bride of Pinbot
No Good Gofers

I've had NVRAM in NASCAR for month and the other games were updated this week. So far, no problems. Baywatch and NASCAR has socketed chips so removal and replacement was easy. The WPC games all had the original RAM chip soldered to the board and required more work to desolder the older chip and add a socket for the new chip. You should definitely desolder and remove the old chips slowly and carefully as you don't want to damage the eyeholes. I have a HAKKO FR-300 desoldering gun, which makes the job much, much easier.

For the WPC games, there are photos above for finding the right chip to replace and included CPU board for:

WPC (BOP)
WPC-S (ToM)
WPC-95 (NGG)

It was interesting to see how the battery placement moved on these boards, with the last design (WPC-95) having batteries placed in the upper left of the CPU board where, if they were to leak, would cause the most damage.

Given that I am very good about replacing all the batteries once a year, I wasn't very concerned about causing damage, but I feel better knowing that I won't have to worry about it any more. Also, since the Ramtron chips were about $6, I'll be cost neutral in 2-3 years, and save a couple bucks every year after that.

One final note is that all of the replaced chips were different. Not sure why, but interesting.

IMG_4801.jpg

#23 2 years ago

Nice Job! I just have my Jokerz and Gorgar left to do myself..

#24 2 years ago
Quoted from lyonsden:

One final note is that all of the replaced chips were different. Not sure why, but interesting.

That's normal, pinball companies would have sourced 6264 compatible NVRAM from various manufacturers in bulk & likely when they resupplied they just went with whoever was cheapest. The markings on the chip sometimes don't have "6264" or "64" even in them as you may have noticed. It throws a lot of people off when they go looking for the existing RAM in the machine, but a quick Google search usually tells you that it's a 6264 (ie. 8k x 8bit, 8192 words, 64 Kbit). Find that and you're good to go.

#25 2 years ago

These are for sale in the USA by barakandl on Pinside. They cost a little more, but they are tested and come from a far more reliable source. He gives quantity discounts.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/fs-mc6821p-mc6802p-pcd5101p-tip102-genuine-parts-great-price

Review:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/installing-barakandls-nvram-battery-eliminator-vids-review

#26 2 years ago
Quoted from pinballshark:

These are for sale in the USA by barakandl on Pinside. They cost a little more, but they are tested and come from a far more reliable source. He gives quantity discounts.

Thanks for posting.

I'm sure he will stand by his product and provide help/replacements when there is a problem, while some random ebay seller from China (or some random guy posting his experiences in a pinside thread, aka me) may not. Also, it is always good to support the pinball community developing these products as they will be the ones innovating the next must-have idea.

#27 2 years ago
Quoted from lyonsden:

However, I'm sure he will stand by his product and provide help/replacements when there is a problem, while some random ebay seller from China (or some random guy posting his experiences in a pinside thread, aka me) may not. Also, it is always good to support the pinball community developing these products as they will be the ones innovating the next must-have idea.

True. In today's climate though, if you don't receive what you should have from an eBay seller.. eBay will take care of the buyer. There's minimal risk IMO. Same goes for some of the HK/China marketplace websites. So if you don't mind waiting a few weeks for chips and they're going in your own games.. not much to lose. With these DIP parts.. anyone importing and reselling them is just doing what everyone else *could* do if they wanted. Import, test them in a tester and offer them for sale at a premium. Nothing against that if the person stands behind what they sell, but there's no *guarantee* the chips weren't remarked or used in harsh environments or in equipment that did an extreme number of writes to the chip.

I'm definitely in favoring of supporting innovators, but reselling imported pulls isn't innovation. Now that the "cat's out of the bag" on where to get imported chips for cheap.. and multiple posts of China sellers whose chips work, then it's just up to the buyer to decide if they want to take a gamble and possibly have to dispute something if they don't get what they expected (but again, minimal risk IMO) or support someone in the pinball community, etc. If you look hard enough you can import DIP RAMTRON parts for $3-4 or less. $6 is actually a bit on the expensive side.

#28 2 years ago

One thing to consider is the remark factor and revision number of the FM1608. Checking the data sheets you will see as time goes by and revision numbers increased, the rated life of the chips increases by a factor 100 from 1999 to 2004. When buying chips from eBay, they often take tons of the same kind of chip and refurbish them. They straighten the legs, resolder the legs, and they also reprint the top of the chip. If they reprint the top of the FM1608 you don't know if you have FM1608 rated for 10 billion writes (1999) or a FM1608 rated for 1 trilling writes (REV M date codes start around 2004).

All my FM1608 have original imprints, revision M (1 trillion write endruance, 35 years between cycles) and are tested good.

Saddly I cannot compete with Shenzhen sellers. I have squeezed the price point about as low as I can. As long as the batteries are getting off the MPUs is the main thing. About a years ago plus your options for NVRAM was priced up to $40 each. Competition is good the end pinballer.

http://html.alldatasheet.com/html-pdf/80224/RAMTRON/FM1608/245/1/FM1608.html early date code data sheet showing the endurance is only 10billion.

#29 2 years ago
Quoted from acebathound:

True. In today's climate though, if you don't receive what you should have from an eBay seller.. eBay will take care of the buyer. There's minimal risk IMO. Same goes for some of the HK/China marketplace websites. So if you don't mind waiting a few weeks for chips and they're going in your own games.. not much to lose. With these DIP parts.. anyone importing and reselling them is just doing what everyone else *could* do if they wanted. Import, test them in a tester and offer them for sale at a premium. Nothing against that if the person stands behind what they sell, but there's no *guarantee* the chips weren't remarked or used in harsh environments or in equipment that did an extreme number of writes to the chip.
I'm definitely in favoring of supporting innovators, but reselling imported pulls isn't innovation. Now that the "cat's out of the bag" on where to get imported chips for cheap.. and multiple posts of China sellers whose chips work, then it's just up to the buyer to decide if they want to take a gamble and possibly have to dispute something if they don't get what they expected (but again, minimal risk IMO) or support someone in the community, etc. If you look hard enough you can import DIP RAMTRON parts for $3-4 or less. $6 is actually a bit on the expensive side.

I completely agree. I share what I learn or figure out to give back to the community (and is a small thing that I can do for all that I've learned from others.)

It would be great if you would share your source(s) for even cheaper RAMTRON DIP chips.

#30 2 years ago

Nice

#31 2 years ago
Quoted from lyonsden:

Thanks for posting, but I'd consider his prices more than a "little more":
FM1608
----
1-9 $12 each
10-24 $11 each
25-49 $10 each
50-99 $9 each
100+ $8 each
Basically $60 vs. $30 for 5 chips. Or, $110 vs $49 for 10 chips: ebay.com link » 10pcs Fm1608 120 Pg Encapsulation Dip
However, I'm sure he will stand by his product and provide help/replacements when there is a problem, while some random ebay seller from China (or some random guy posting his experiences in a pinside thread, aka me) may not. Also, it is always good to support the pinball community developing these products as they will be the ones innovating the next must-have idea.

I have lowered my prices since that post too, I need to go back and edit that. You can get a 10 pack of FM1608 for $70 shipped. Plus i have 5101 NVRAM adapters and 6116 NVRAM adapters at good prices too.

Repro boards are in the works. Aux lamp driver is out, Bally -51 sound board coming soon.

http://nvram.weebly.com

#32 2 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

About a years ago plus your options for NVRAM was priced up to $40 each. Competition is good the end pinballer.

Have to view this though of what the market was like a few years ago. DIP parts *were* obsolete.. very few overseas sources. PCD5101P was also nowhere to be found cheap. Imported SMD nvram was 2-3x what it costs now. The market has just changed a lot in 2014-2015. Not only from who is selling what & competition, but just in how many overseas sellers are competing on the imported RAM/NVRAM. If there were places to import RAMTRON DIP parts for $2-3 each and reliably get what you paid for.. and memory testers to give you some indication what you had was good.. then none of the custom PCB adapters would have happened (at least for the 6264 nvram). Even the easier dispute/resolution from eBay or China/HK marketplace websites has made it less of a hassle to take a risk.

I'm saying all that because there was a reason this didn't happen earlier and nvram adapters were priced at $25-30 (or more in case of the premier version of AnyPin). There's a reason many pcb nvram adapters are STILL priced that way. The parts costs are more expensive if sourced from authorized distributors, many people don't want to chance importing unknown parts and using them in a product they're selling. Sources for imported parts were much shadier a few years ago, resolving disputes was much harder. The Neoloch memory tester didn't exist, so you were pretty much "blindly" saying that a used chip worked just because it booted in a board. It's interesting seeing all of those changes and what it's done to pricing. And nowadays more people are catching onto eBay sellers or overseas sellers that they can buy the chips from cheaper than $6-8 even.. causing more people to attempt importing them themselves, cut out the middle-man. Why not, can't blame them.. if the parts work, it achieved the same thing and saved them a few bucks.

#33 2 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

I have lowered my prices since that post too, I need to go back and edit that. You can get a 10 pack of FM1608 for $70 shipped. Plus i have 5101 NVRAM adapters and 6116 NVRAM adapters at good prices too.
Repro boards are in the works. Aux lamp driver is out, Bally -51 sound board coming soon.
http://nvram.weebly.com

Sorry for the misquote -- I'll edit my post and I'm happy to add your prices there too.

#34 2 years ago
Quoted from lyonsden:

It would be great if you would share your source(s) for even cheaper RAMTRON DIP chips.

I've posted this before.. quite a few times in various threads, and I haven't attempted to order myself because frankly I have more nvram than I know what to do with -- considering I'd invested heavily in the stuff in 2013-2014 & have built products with smd parts and DIP parts.

Anyway.. this seller doesn't have a ton of feedback, but they're 5x for $15.00:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-5pcs-lot-FM1608-120-PG-FM1608-120-DIP-new-original-electronics-IC-kit/32477487724.html

There's some other sellers on Aliexpress I've found over the last year even cheaper than that.. I think the lowest I've seen was around $2.50. Again, it's a bit of a gamble..but it's $15.00. I personally wouldn't try and import with the objective of re-selling the stuff.. you don't know what was remarked or pulled from harsh environments. But if it's for your own machines.. well, let's just say if it was me in today's environment and I wasn't already knee-deep in nvram I'd definitely take the small risk. If you're going to use them or sell them, it probably makes sense to buy the Neoloch memory tester to verify what you buy in bulk. If you're doing a lot with pinball machines the Neoloch tester pays for itself quickly in saving you time of finding faulty RAM... plus you support an innovator of some great testing products that have helped us all

#35 2 years ago

Here's 10x for $23.75

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/10PCS-FM1608-120-PG-FM1608-120-P-DIP/32413906510.html

And.. that is now probably the cheapest I've seen DIP parts. Seller has a ton more feedback than the other link.

If someone orders from that seller, post how it works out. I'd do it myself but.. that whole knee deep in nvram thing.. lol.

#36 2 years ago
Quoted from acebathound:

Here's 10x for $23.75
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/10PCS-FM1608-120-PG-FM1608-120-P-DIP/32413906510.html
And.. that is now probably the cheapest I've seen DIP parts. Seller has a ton more feedback than the other link.
If someone orders from that seller, post how it works out. I'd do it myself but.. that whole knee deep in nvram thing.. lol.

Thanks! Order placed and I'll report back when the chips come in (2-4 weeks).

#37 2 years ago
Quoted from acebathound:

Here's 10x for $23.75
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/10PCS-FM1608-120-PG-FM1608-120-P-DIP/32413906510.html
And.. that is now probably the cheapest I've seen DIP parts. Seller has a ton more feedback than the other link.
If someone orders from that seller, post how it works out. I'd do it myself but.. that whole knee deep in nvram thing.. lol.

That looks like a remark to me. The font and package is wrong. Still probably works, but see my post above about revision number and write endurance. You want 1 trillion write endurance, not 10 billion.

#38 2 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

That looks like a remark to me. The font and package is wrong. Still probably works, but see my post above about revision number and write endurance. You want 1 trillion write endurance, not 10 billion.

I've seen a ton of different fonts on these things. The genuine FM1608B-PG parts I have look nothing like the FM1608 chips. And even on the same part number, I'd seen some different fonts.

How's the package wrong though?

#39 2 years ago
Quoted from lyonsden:

Thanks! Order placed and I'll report back when the chips come in (2-4 weeks).

The guinea pig has been chosen!

#40 2 years ago

Good to see the prices have come way down.

#41 2 years ago
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

Good to see the prices have come way down.

The obsolete DIP parts were always kind of "out there" to be imported for $4-6 even a few years ago. Just much shadier looking environments. Aliexpress / Alibaba = shady looking back in 2011/2012. I did some research on Aliexpress back then.. saw they were a wholesale marketplace for Chinese sellers.. and found people were importing all kinds of knock-offs of clothing, watches, etc. Some people importing and having good luck with quality, some not. Shady. Not a lot of info on those marketplaces, no idea how good their security measures were with credit cards, etc. They had Paypal hooked into their system for a while and something fell through there.. I'd imagine enough disputes that Paypal was losing money or didn't want to support it back then.

And to be sure, you increase your chance of getting something that's a counterfeit or clone. Most likely any name-brand products (purses, shoes, expensive watches, Oakleys, etc) are clones. Probably enough of the expensive / obsolete ICs too.. but they're also doing a lot of recycling over there so it's anyone's guess what percentage is counterfeit versus remarked versus genuine. You and I don't know what's inside that "black box" -- if it functions correctly, hey if that works for you then you saved some $$$. But they could be factory rejects, clones, remarked scrap or a different chip entirely. The odds of getting something totally not working are slim because the dispute process on those websites is somewhat like eBay where it's in the buyer's favor. But that doesn't prevent the sellers from selling something that "looks and smells" like the real thing, even though it might not match specs, be a reject, etc.

#42 2 years ago
Quoted from acebathound:

I've seen a ton of different fonts on these things. The genuine FM1608B-PG parts I have look nothing like the FM1608 chips. And even on the same part number, I'd seen some different fonts.
How's the package wrong though?

The font used on that package "1" character should not have the horizontal bar across the bottom is what makes me think it is a remark. None of mine do in that package across similar dates.

I thought it was missing a circle shaped divot on the top, but that package does not have them.

Has anyone counted how many write cycles our pinball machines are doing while just sitting in attract mode? Is 10 billion not many writes or plenty?

The new FM16W08 dated 2011+ seem to have a 100 trillion write endurance. Maybe i should start pimping those as new and high write endurance. I paid more than $2 each the FM1608 pulls i have, cant compete with Shenzhen there.

#43 2 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

Has anyone counted how many write cycles our pinball machines are doing while just sitting in attract mode? Is 10 billion not many writes or plenty?

Have not counted write cycles myself for anything, but in attract mode I'd think it's only doing reads. During a game, it's probably doing a lot of writes to keep track of scores, switches activated, game modes, etc. That'd be interesting to have some numbers on. Probably would write an entire memory map at once of anything it's keeping track of in-game.. maybe on-event? No sense in writing anything if nothing changed, but if a switch is sensed then that would cause scoring to be updated, status of switches to change, modes to change etc. On that note, I'd imagine write cycles are MUCH higher on the newer games (ie. late-80s onward) versus older games like Classic Bally/Stern or Williams that had the 6810 scratchpad to use for the stuff being kept track of in-game and would seem to have written much less frequently to the 5101.

#44 2 years ago
Quoted from acebathound:

The guinea pig has been chosen!

Totally. $23 contributed to the greater good.

#45 2 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

Is 10 billion not many writes or plenty?

Just to put that number in perspective. If the chip was getting one write per second, 60 seconds per minute, 60 minutes per hour, 24 hours per day, and 365 days per year, it could handle 317 continuous years of writes. Of course, I have no idea how many writes are happening during an hour of solid play, but considering that games in a home environment aren't getting played too much, I'd guess that 10 billion writes will last at least a few years. If the cost of the chip over its lifetime is less than the cost of new batteries each year (plus the added benefit of no leaking batteries worries), then it seems like a no brainer. Esp. if the chips are $2.50 a pop. Given $1 per year for new, cheap batteries (or $3 per year for "quality" batteries), in 1 to 3 years and you are ahead of the game. Of course, get a couple of bad chips, and the equation changes.

#46 2 years ago

The 6264 RAM is the scratchpad in these later games, no? The lamp matrix i think would be doing lots of writing even during attract mode, maybe not. We would need a software guy to figure that out i suppose.

If the ram was written to every cpu cycle of 1mhz. That is 166 hours to reach 10 billion. 16,666 hours to reach 1 trillion.

And the brand new SOIC-28 FM16W08 would take a whopping 190 years of straight writing at 1mhz to reach 100 trillion write endurance.

The date code and endurance could be important.

#47 2 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

If the ram was written to every cpu cycle of 1mhz. That is 166 hours to reach 10 billion. 16,666 hours to reach 1 trillion.

Excellent! That comes to 694 continuous days of operations. Of course, who knows how long they will last if they are used chips with an unknown number of writes.

#48 2 years ago

placed an order based on your original post. I have about 60 games to do so the cheaper the better. Cant wait to find out how the alibaba ones come out. please update when you can.

#49 2 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

The 6264 RAM is the scratchpad in these later games, no? The lamp matrix i think would be doing lots of writing even during attract mode, maybe not. We would need a software guy to figure that out i suppose.
If the ram was written to every cpu cycle of 1mhz. That is 166 hours to reach 10 billion. 16,666 hours to reach 1 trillion.
And the brand new SOIC-28 FM16W08 would take a whopping 190 years of straight writing at 1mhz to reach 100 trillion write endurance.
The date code and endurance could be important.

This one:
ebay.com link » Ramtron Fm16w08 Sg Fm16w08 64kbit Fram Nvram Soic28 X 10pcs

If they are cheep to

#50 2 years ago
Quoted from tezting:

This one:
ebay.com link » Ramtron Fm16w08 Sg Fm16w08 64kbit Fram Nvram Soic28 X 10pcs
If they are cheep to

Those are surface mounted and require an adaptor board to fit the size of the stock chips.

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