Seems like you need to do some research on the history of pinball. The game started with ONLY nudging, no flippers. Many games have been built with nudging and tilting in mind.

If you ain’t nudging, you ain’t playing the full game.

there's another thread on the forum right now about "pinball milestones" or something

realizing that you can't play competitively unless you learn to nudge, bump, and slide should be on that list

Imagine having a ball headed sdtm and just standing there watching it because it's cheating. Lame

Nudging is control, same as hitting the buttons. Same as stage flipping. Same as tap passing, ski jumping, post passing, or any other control method.

Take a look at the legs on your Pirates. Make note of the space where the legs meet the cab. They are made this way specifically to accommodate nudging.

Same thing with the tilt bob. If nudging were cheating, you wouldn’t get a warning - it would simply end the game. And that’s what the “slam tilt” is for, which is a different mechanism than a tilt bob.

A tilt bob can be adjusted, same way the pitch of the table can be adjusted - to make things easier or harder.

Heck, you can even earn more tilt warnings on Jersey Jack games.

Literally every single person who’s done well in the tournament scene uses nudging. Constantly.

I think you’re just new to the hobby, and that’s okay. You’re definition of “cheating” needs to be rethought. A well-timed slap save or outlane nudge is every bit as much skill as a 5 way combo or 5th consecutive upper loop shot.

i always thought a no-nudge tournament would be interesting. play with chopsticks, or by remote control. but that's not really pinball

i've also been present when some players that are much better than me made some incredible slide saves that i'd have been too scared to even attempt. it's always impressive

I don’t mind a little nudge, but anything more and I get pretty pissed off. A friend of a friend came over thinking he was the pinball wizard. Started slamming my machines I warned him twice and asked him to leave. I paid way too much for these pieces of art for someone to start slamming them. Not to mention they hit the wall when it gets hit hard. I have laminate flooring you can nudge the machines just by looking at them too hard!

what type of fiend would rob the world of this skill

I’m still trying to figure out if this thread is genuine or a troll thread

You are correct that they were designed around luck. That is precisely what they were created for. That being said, all of what you think is cheating is perfectly okay in pinball. Now, the extent of how much of that is done as others have said can be adjusted to be tighter or looser. I personally do not think people need to beat the hell out of the machine, but even I have almost put a shoulder out trying to nudge a heavy machine.

Rubbin's Racin'

Cheater cheater pumpkin eater.

https://clips.twitch.tv/PeppySpookyLapwingArgieB8

https://clips.twitch.tv/BrightRenownedPorpoiseJonCarnage-u2-smDxG0H62Gpyq

Thread title sounds like a date night in my house !

Think about the legs... They are attached and constructed the way they are for a reason, to flex and give... If the game wasn't designed with nudging in mind, surely, they could and would have arrived at a sturdier design of rigidity. If you're not nudging and slapping, you're not really playing to the full extent

What you describe is a death save or a bang back, these are both illegal in tournament play.

You’re describing an illegal move.

Like in any sport, there are moves that push the rules. In hockey, for example, you can knock a puck out of the air with your glove, but hold on to it too long, and it’s a penalty. In basketball, you can take 3 steps without dribbling, but take 4, and it’s a traveling penalty.

Your attitude on nudging is kinda like a basketball player who says “taking a single step without dribbling is cheating!”… well, it’s not, and you will absolutely hinder your own abilities by indulging stubborn ideas of “cheating”.

Again, you’re still very new, and you will absolutely not have a 45 minute game on any machine at your skill level - nudging and death-saving included

You’re going to miss out on a lot of features of your $8k+ machines if you just stand there like a statue and watch the ball go down the middle and outlines w/out trying to save it. You’re absolutely right that these modern games aren’t the same 1930s games — cause there’s a ton of deep code on these with the understanding that good player (solid control and nudging skills) will be rewarded by getting to see /play thru it. It sounds like you don’t want people throwing the games around which is fine.. tournament games have the tilts set pretty tight. But disallowing nudging completely is ridiculous. Like buying a sports car and babying it, always going 0-60 in 30 seconds... but you do you, it’s your game. However, this isn’t an ‘opinion’ thing overall - pins were designed to be nudged from the early days thru now. It’s known and accepted. How much nudging vs throwing the game around is ok is much more grey - even death saves are debated outside tourney rules.

I'm likely to get flamed for this but oh well- lol
So I've been in the pinball hobby for all of two months now really enjoy it. Obviously I'm not very good at it but that's OK. A few weeks ago a friend was over and we played a few games of JP to which he usually scored higher. I noticed however that he would often press the buttons on the side of the cabinet that move these arm doohickeys on the playfield to bounce a ball that likely would have drained to which I pointed out was cheating. He said no, that's how everyone plays and I just said that's BS. Well turns out he was right, I've read online about and watched tutorial vids on YouTube, that's apparently how people play.
When I was in high school, we didn't have any pinball machines as we lived in a small town, farm community but what we did have was pachinko and bingo games. I never was real good at pachinko, did ok but not great. I was however really good at bingo games. Friends and I wouldn't take a point on a ball unless we had nudged it perfectly in the right hole outsleves. To spin my member was a sin and we always called it playing slop, and we never played slop. So fast forward 35 years and I get my first Pin, JP. Roughly a month later a POTC. I think these machines are simply beautiful, they are artwork as well as entertainment. I can only imagine the time spent in design, the artwork, the lights, the ramps, slings, flippers, mech's and outlane drains all flowing together in harmony only to have some ogre press those buttons while spinning his meat sideways to alter the balls course. This is slop (cheating) with some cool names hung on it. Plain and simple and you'd have a hard time selling me it otherwise. We've got some Menonite families in the area and they live by their own rules. Nobody forces these rules, only themselves. They can't jerk off, but what they can do is go over to the neighbors and spin their meat..... What!??? Who are they kidding? They created a work around for a rule they imposed on themselves. Makes no sense!
So I believe that pinball is designed for an element of skill and an element of luck. The skill of course being able to bump and nudge the game. The luck, well that's just luck. sometimes a lucky bounce or other times it ends in the outlane. I don't believe they meant for people to remove the element of luck by altering it. Imagine watching that pool tournament on TV and Minnesota Fats calls the 8 ball in the corner pocket and it's starting to look like it's going a little wide and BAM, he spins his meat all over the table, shifting it sideways and sinks it for the win!!... yeah, no. So I'll I'll likely be posting the crazy high scores I see online but now understanding how they were likely achieved I'm a whole lot less impressed. Folks are welcome to stop by if in the area and play a few games but I gotta warn ya that the buttons are greasy cause we don't play slop where I'm from. Hell you gotta sweat pressing the start button...
So I'll ask again, if you play by spinning your meat pressing the buttons etc. Who ya kidding?

I only nudge games in the standard way, have my whole life, but I would never do any of that other stuff. I'm too lazy.

Only time I ever give one of my games a good shove is maybe when I blow it on the last ball.

This was the thread-ending comment. Game over

That man has got some kind of outlane voodoo!

Simple solution.

Tighten the tilt bob.

This will allow skilful nudging but anything more, well, you tilt.

Nudging has always been part of pinball, through every era.

That wouldn't apply to an EM or an SS game before the tilt warning feature came out. But I still wouldn't call it cheating. Just a tilt mech existing says "Sure, you can nudge the game a little but overdo it and you will be punished for it." And the fact that tilt eventually became only a one-ball penalty then it was like the companies were saying hey, no big deal, you don't lose the whole game anymore. Hell, they even printed it on the instruction cards back then: "Tilt does not disqualify player". That doesn't exactly scream "Don't tilt, you cheater!"

"My first ball's been hung up between those two posts for the past 45 minutes."
"Well whadda ya waitin' for, shake it loose, stupid!"
"Are you telling me to CHEAT??"

I've seen guys at barcades sliding pins around and looking pretty happy with their score afterward. And yes, the tilt was obviously too forgiving. Nudging and bumping a game is fine, but some people do seem to go a little over the top. We discuss mods, rules, theme, art, playfield angle, but not much about tilt. Im curious how forgiving or unforgiving tilt is set. I dont even put tilt bobs in my games, I guess I should reconsider.

So, you're the Menonites here. You can play by your no nudging rules all you want. No one else has to.
And, in general, if you are critical of someone's religious beliefs as part of your argument, you are probably wrong.

One noob, one thread, two posts that make no sense, and TWO carguments?

Who ya kidding?!?!

It certainly reeks of the "Pinlord Marc" school of trolling.

We may never know.

Nudge away. Sliding is cheating to me. Rubber feet on games with slippery floor.

I think you are on to something here. We need to add a tiltbob to billiards. It could make the game exponentially more exciting.

I was actually raised in a Mennonite community, but got into death saves last year to the point of messing up my elbow pretty badly. How far I’ve fallen. Only Jesus can death save, anything else is blasphemous

My wife scolded me for it, and said I should reset the high scores. I 100% agree. Death saving is a neat trick to impress people, but it’s absolutely cheating.

@OP, If you stay in the hobby, I suggest you review and repost about this topic you’ve started again in 5 years. I have a feeling you’ll have progressed and your opinions will have changed.

Pinball is a physical game, not a computer simulation in video screen. The ball moves according to laws of physics, and a skillful player can, and is expected to affect the movement with external forces. That's why the tilt bob and warning count are adjustable. Part of the game is to keep the nudging so moderate that the game does not tilt. It is up to the game owner/operator to set the desired sensitivity.

Bangbacks and actually moving the game while playing are no-no though.

It’s part of the game as much as stealing bases is part of baseball. It just is, whether you think so or not. That being said, play as you wish!

What’s the tilt bob for then if nudging isn’t contemplated? It’s set up to give you wiggle room to nudge a little but not too much. If nudging was a no no, the tilt bob would go off the moment you moved the pin the slightest bit.

If one dislikes players nudging their games, one can tighten the tilts and set warnings as low as they will go, and put rubber feet on their games.

Conversely, if one likes manhandling their games, they can remove tilt bobs, set warnings to max, and put sliders on their games' feet for all I care.

Pinball can accommodate either preference, or anywhere in between. Knowing what one can get away with on a given game (which is not to say "how much they can cheat!") is all part of the strategy.

My own old, wimpy self, I like the rubber feet because they discourage me from even trying to push the game around, which would only mess up my shoulders even worse than they already are.

You compare pinball to foosball and billiards, but those are entirely different games with their own sets of rules. Of course nudging a pool table would be cheating, the game wasn't designed with that in mind. Pinball is. Somewhere along the line it became a crucial risk/reward element to the game, and anyone involved in designing pinball games in the past 50 years will tell you so. Some games even have playfield elements designed around nudging (Path of the Dead on LotR for example), or will reward you with extra tilt warnings (If it was cheating, and tilting only existed to prevent cheating, this would have never been a thing).

Pretty much every digital pinball game ever made also includes the ability to nudge. If it was cheating, the devs of pinball videogames would have the perfect solution to the problem by just not allowing it to be done, but they do because it's a mechanic, not a cheat.

I'm at least glad he made up his mind before he posted and is "just asking questions", we don't see that enough these days! I'm glad one of the new guys finally had the balls to step up to the plate and just tell it like it is for once. My only regret is that he doesn't have a podcast.

Excellent post

I walked it right up the outlane on location once. Even the people at the bar that didn’t know anything about pinball were impressed by the finesse.
Walking it up for an outlane save is so insanely rewarding and satisfying.

OP. I totally understand where you are coming from.
Eventually you’ll get tired of getting dogshit scores and you’ll warm up to the idea of nudging. They have always been designed arounding nudging and shaking. Pinball wasn’t a different game 80 years ago. It’s the same. Buy some 1960s machines and you’ll realize that.
It’s obvious.

It takes a deep appreciation and understanding of the history of pinball to accept that nudging is a CORE skill in pinball. The machines are designed around this.

And unless you bought your precious expensive machine NIB, they got the absolute piss beat out of them on location. Doesn’t matter how nice you think they are, go to an arcade. Every single machine, especially back in the 80s and 90s was severely abused on route and they survived just fine.

In regards to pinball machines as art, yeah, they are, but they're also designed as coin-operated machines meant to withstand intense amounts of play and abuse at arcades, bars, etc. Giving it a push here and a slap there, especially in a home environment, isn't going to cause any noticeable damage. Your fingers resting on the artwork on the sides of the cabinet as you flip is likely to cause more wear than you will from slap saving.

Then adjust your tilt bobs. If hes not tilting out of the game, hes not nudging too hard

But to the OP feeling he is not impressed by some of the great players knowing they do nudge/slap save that’s very naive…….it still takes a great deal of skill to know when/how to nudge/slap save or use any of the ball control techniques. And even being proficient in these skills there is still a fair amount of luck. Even the top players get house balls and there is just nothing you can do. If it was as simple as just nudge or slap save EVERYONE would be a top 100 world ranked player if they wanted to. The fact is it just ain’t that simple. There is a lot to be said about shot accuracy and knowing the rules of many different games. And when you play in tourneys it’s different examples of machines and they all play slightly different from one you may be familiar with and you have to adjust to how that machine plays.

So I expect the OP to come back and update us in 6 months that he is ranked in the top 100 in the world since it’s so “easy”. I guess you skipped over the chapter that pinball is “hard”. We are messing with ya so don’t take any of this serious…have fun!

That reminds me - Godzilla has the imposter award for nudging a magna grabbed ball behind the upper left flipper. Absolutely designed as a nudge-only achievement.

Pinside search is your friend here:

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In basketball you only get two steps. Unless your name is LeBron James.

i played a lot of pinball in college, back in the 90's, and would never have dreamed of nudging the machine. i learned on a CFTBL (Pinball Pete's at Michigan State) too, so it was pretty brutal.

i started playing again, this time competitively, in 2019 and more seriously in the past year, and i think a big part of it is that no one tells you until you play competitively that you're allowed/supposed to nudge the machine. new players know what games cost and i think they're afraid they might hurt them. i make it a point now to tell new people that it's part of the game

College in the 90s huh.

So we are exactly the same age, grandpa!

I actually LEARNED to nudge around that time, thanks to an Addams Family with no tilt. I mean, I didn't exactly learn best nudging practices as I was abusing the game, but I certainly learned how effective nudging can be.

While I disagree that nudging, slap saving etc is cheating I will say that if someone invites me into their home to play their pins I play by their rules. Can't say I've ever encountered someone who doesn't mind some reasonable amount of physical movement of their machines but again, their house their rules.

What is sad is when you see someone move a machine like it's on a bar floor with slide saves and death saves. Unless you are certain your host has no problem with that I feel it's a large assumption to make on someone's multi thousands dollar toy. So in that regard I think the OP is well within his right to boot his friend off his machines but also as many have said here the OP might want to revaluate what is "legal" and what is actually abuse.

In closing. Slap Saves, it'll change your life