(Topic ID: 117693)

"Nudging is wrong"


By mof

4 years ago



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  • 302 posts
  • 134 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by ccotenj
  • Topic is favorited by 5 Pinsiders

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There are 302 posts in this topic. You are on page 5 of 7.
#201 4 years ago

Quiddity insists on leaving the bob off our Metallica...

So last night, when she got too much of an upper leg, and I drained with five hits left on Coffin, I shook the hell out of that mother until that captive ball ricocheted around enough to award the multiball before it hit the outhole switch. Take that.

#202 4 years ago
Quoted from silver_spinner:

Lock bar dampener- slapping palm of hand on lock bar when ball is hitting slings to compress some of the force.

Curious about the physics of that....

#203 4 years ago
Quoted from Frax:

Curious about the physics of that....

I pull back on the game to help with live catches too. Helps me out cause I stink at those.

#204 4 years ago

<---- Winner

#205 4 years ago

it works.
me and koz first came up with the method on my Spiderman. stern starting making slings more powerful. the next biggest change started with rolling stones. the slings are so powerful it can through a ball in the air over the in lane rails and into the out lane.
anyhow, we have tilts set tight so we were testing alternatives..and slamming palm down on lockbar it dampens the through of the slings when implementing correctly. timing is key. i do it, he does, zach sharpe does, and others have followed suit.

Actually Bowen does this too but in a different way kind of. his is more of a one handed finesse to the lock bar. does it often on em or ss games.

88

Quoted from Frax:Curious about the physics of that....

#206 4 years ago

BTW i absolutely love physics and always look for ways to defy or challenge the laws. i recently adopted a new method of " crazy sling madness". when the ball is going crazy between the slings to counter act the direction. its with concentration on one side only. for example, when the ball is in a frenzy going back and fourth between left and right sling, let the left sling do its thing but when the ball hits the right sling apply a technique which alters the ball trajectory so the sling virtually cant send the ball out the out lane.....which is the default design of many games. This can be done with tighter tilts as well.

#207 4 years ago

If nudging is wrong then I don't want to be right

#208 4 years ago

Ahh, physics, defy them at will!

-1
#209 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

I do not nudge and ask people to nudge their own machines. My house, my rules. When I play at your house I go by your rules.

1. You don't know how to play pinball.
2. I will never play at your house.
3. You will never play at may house.

You remind me of the guy with the garage queen muscle car. It's sort of cool and all, but I'm not really interested in it until you are selling it or your family is.

It's certainly fine that you are the way you are, I just don't want to be around people like you. And I'm sure you would say the same of me. You see, that is real diversity.

-2
#210 4 years ago
Quoted from Caucasian2Step:

Lyman is one of the best to ever play the game. I made a point of telling him that: "My life is better for the work you have done." The last time I met him.

Did you offer him a BJ?

Post edited by moderator: Completely out of line and posted for the sole purpose of shock value. Permanent Thread Ejection.

#211 4 years ago

#212 4 years ago
Quoted from SadSack:

Did you offer him a BJ?
Post edited by moderator: Completely out of line and posted for the sole purpose of shock value. Permanent Thread Ejection.

welcome to the No Fun League of pinball.

#213 4 years ago
Quoted from rollinover:

I forgot where I saw it but one of the designers was being interviewed and the lady said hey your nudging isnt that cheating ? and he said that is all part of the game and playing it, something along those lines. as long as it isnt extreme after seeing that a little nudging is a good thing for me.

10 sec in.

#214 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

I do not nudge and ask people to nudge their own machines. My house, my rules. When I play at your house I go by your rules.
Also, some people don't want drinks on, or by their machines. I'm one of them.

If you don't want people to nudge just set the tilt super tight.

#215 4 years ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

I tried nudging but was not very successful until I watched his tutorials. I learned when to nudge and how.
Bowen does this move where he can save a side drain ball with a quick jerk of the machine (death save?). The ball jumps up to the flippers instead of going into the trough. I have no idea how he does that with just a warning. That's kinda cheating but pretty awesome.

Technically that is cheating, it's illegal in tourneys.

It might be interesting to have a special "no holds barred" pinball tournament some day where bang backs and death saves are allowed and see how it affects things

#216 4 years ago
Quoted from KloggMonkey:

ยป YouTube video
10 sec in.

Cool video from the past! Thanks!

#217 4 years ago

My new country hit single:

"If nudging is wrong, I don't wanna be right."

#218 4 years ago
Quoted from Caucasian2Step:

My new country hit single:
"If nudging is wrong, I don't wanna be right."

From his debut album: "My tilted heart"

#219 4 years ago

Most of the discussion on here is about nudging or not nudging new Sterns and DMD pins.
Whats being left out is the fact that older pins have nudging built into the game play.
Before flippers all you did is nudge.
Then came 2 inch flippers.Lots of nudging needed .Check Fireball.
Then came the 70s,pinball was huge,lots of Ems and then SS that require nudging to collect certain awards.Check the extra ball target on Joker Poker.Check the out lanes on Silverball Mania or Fathom.
These designs encourage nudging.
Move to the present and now nudging is part and parcel of all(most)players.Lots of examples of top players nudging techniques already mentioned.Roger Sharpes book "Pinball" has a whole chapter on what he calls "hudging"(combo of hit and nudge).
Nudging is engrained in the design and play of pinball since its invention.Use it or you lose it,but don't abuse it.

#221 4 years ago
Quoted from Frax:

Curious about the physics of that....

It vibrates the playfield which in turn slows the ball down.

#223 4 years ago

You don't meet Jenn Peavler. You experience Jenn Peavler.

#224 4 years ago

I had to Google the name...

#225 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

I had to Google the name...

There are plenty of women out here on the left coast that nudge. Makes tournaments and league a lot more fun when the ladies are kicking ass and taking names too. Used to be a guy was happy to hear he was facing a women in the next round. Not any more. I think it's awesome. The west coast pinball ladies are the best.

#226 4 years ago
Quoted from DarthXaos:

Technically that is cheating, it's illegal in tourneys.
It might be interesting to have a special "no holds barred" pinball tournament some day where bang backs and death saves are allowed and see how it affects things

Bangbacks and death saves are not allowed in most tournaments. The tournaments would go on forever if they were. The only time I've seen them allowed was in fun tournaments run by non-pinballers. They had never seen them before and so didn't even know to make them against the rules.

I considered allowing death saves in a time-limited format. They would certainly add some excitement. The problem is that due to their stigma as 'cheating', many players don't bother to learn how to do them, and doing them well (like how Bowen does them) takes a lot of practice. It could end up being an overwhelming advantage for some players.

#227 4 years ago

So where's the best place to learn / view nudging tutorials? I'm progressing a bit as a player and have improved my flipper skills quite a bit (still PLENTY of room for improvement of course!)... but holy hell, nudging is just an enigma that fiendishly escapes me.

I mean, I've now played the one game I own enough to where it can friggin telegraph an oncoming STDM or an outlane shuffle/drift... I naively tell myself not to be so cynical, yet I see it coming and always feel powerless to stop it. Mind you, I have no problems shaking the machine a bit: I'm able to do so without tilting. Sometimes it works, or was it just luck? I just can't seem to figure out the when/how.

Any attempts I make probably hurt me as often (or more so?!?) than they might help. Mostly I can't even discern that my nudge had any kind of effect whatsoever. The fact there's no way to consistently predict or repeat the same situations for practice (unlike flipper control and timing) doesn't help, but of course that's part of the game (or my still-needs-work lack of finesse).

I've watched a few gameplay videos where I can tell they're nudging, but not how or why... it all happens too fast and subtly and is rarely even pointed out.

Anyway: I say nudging isn't wrong, but my inability to do it right pisses me off. How can I fix this?

#228 4 years ago
Quoted from goingincirclez:

So where's the best place to learn / view nudging tutorials? I'm progressing a bit as a player and have improved my flipper skills quite a bit (still PLENTY of room for improvement of course!)... but holy hell, nudging is just an enigma that fiendishly escapes me.
I mean, I've now played the one game I own enough to where it can friggin telegraph an oncoming STDM or an outlane shuffle/drift... I naively tell myself not to be so cynical, yet I see it coming and always feel powerless to stop it. Mind you, I have no problems shaking the machine a bit: I'm able to do so without tilting. Sometimes it works, or was it just luck? I just can't seem to figure out the when/how.
Any attempts I make probably hurt me as often (or more so?!?) than they might help. Mostly I can't even discern that my nudge had any kind of effect whatsoever. The fact there's no way to consistently predict or repeat the same situations for practice (unlike flipper control and timing) doesn't help, but of course that's part of the game (or my still-needs-work lack of finesse).
I've watched a few gameplay videos where I can tell they're nudging, but not how or why... it all happens too fast and subtly and is rarely even pointed out.
Anyway: I say nudging isn't wrong, but my inability to do it right pisses me off. How can I fix this?

A few years ago I threw together this video. Very basic stuff but a good place to start. Make sure to leave youtube annotations on.

#229 4 years ago
Quoted from goingincirclez:

So where's the best place to learn / view nudging tutorials? I'm progressing a bit as a player and have improved my flipper skills quite a bit (still PLENTY of room for improvement of course!)... but holy hell, nudging is just an enigma that fiendishly escapes me.
I mean, I've now played the one game I own enough to where it can friggin telegraph an oncoming STDM or an outlane shuffle/drift... I naively tell myself not to be so cynical, yet I see it coming and always feel powerless to stop it. Mind you, I have no problems shaking the machine a bit: I'm able to do so without tilting. Sometimes it works, or was it just luck? I just can't seem to figure out the when/how.
Any attempts I make probably hurt me as often (or more so?!?) than they might help. Mostly I can't even discern that my nudge had any kind of effect whatsoever. The fact there's no way to consistently predict or repeat the same situations for practice (unlike flipper control and timing) doesn't help, but of course that's part of the game (or my still-needs-work lack of finesse).
I've watched a few gameplay videos where I can tell they're nudging, but not how or why... it all happens too fast and subtly and is rarely even pointed out.
Anyway: I say nudging isn't wrong, but my inability to do it right pisses me off. How can I fix this?

imo... the "best way" to learn nudging skills is to acquire a 2" flipper 60's em, and play the living crap out of it... as myself (and others) have noted multiple times on this thread, good nudging skills are a MUST on those machines... you will learn "what works and what doesn't" simply by playing it a LOT...

but that's coming from someone who cut his teeth on them...

#230 4 years ago

No nudging in pinball would be like no bluffing in poker. If you're not nudging than your not appreciating the art of pinball. There's nothing better than getting a huge ball save through a perfect nudge from an outlane to extend your ball time. It's awesome!

#231 4 years ago
Quoted from nhm:

You don't meet Jenn Peavler. You experience Jenn Peavler.

This is the absolute truth. Playing against her in C div EM finals at TPF the first year I entered tournaments there was awesome.

#232 4 years ago
Quoted from ccotenj:

imo... the "best way" to learn nudging skills is to acquire a 2" flipper 60's em, and play the living crap out of it... as myself (and others) have noted multiple times on this thread, good nudging skills are a MUST on those machines... you will learn "what works and what doesn't" simply by playing it a LOT...
but that's coming from someone who cut his teeth on them...

Slick Chick is my first pin with 2" flippers and I'm loving it. I can't imagine playing Slick Chick without nudging!

#233 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Slick Chick is my first pin with 2" flippers and I'm loving it. I can't imagine playing Slick Chick without nudging!

beating slick chick, even if you completely manhandle her, isn't easy... beating the chick without nudging would be impossible...

i know that many people don't like "old boring slow em pins*"... but i'd be willing to wager that 90% of the people out there could dramatically increase their pin skills if they played one on a regular basis...

2" flipper pins rule...

* "we" know they aren't boring and slow, just stating the perception that many have...

#234 4 years ago
Quoted from phishrace:

There are plenty of women out here on the left coast that nudge. Makes tournaments and league a lot more fun when the ladies are kicking ass and taking names too. Used to be a guy was happy to hear he was facing a women in the next round. Not any more. I think it's awesome. The west coast pinball ladies are the best.

I like it that I get my ass kicked by girls. Usually that costs money. Pinball it's free.

#235 4 years ago
Quoted from jonnyo:

I considered allowing death saves in a time-limited format. They would certainly add some excitement. The problem is that due to their stigma as 'cheating', many players don't bother to learn how to do them, and doing them well (like how Bowen does them) takes a lot of practice. It could end up being an overwhelming advantage for some players.

Thats right. If you can make a death save without tilting(not easy not at all) then I think it's ok and very skillful. It's the tilt mechanisms job to take care of these things. What about when the balls going straight down the guts, and you can jerk three inches to one side then the other without even a warning if you do it right. I do wonder about all the looms of wires swinging about but they fortunately seem to cope very well.
Skill is knowing when not to nudge, which is nearly all the time.
Nothing worse than a nervous unnecessary nudge which results in a drain.

An unnudged pin is an unhappy pin.
They feel unloved and unfulfilled.
But read the bounce of the ball and learn the danger spots and nudge when it's needed.

#236 4 years ago
Quoted from jonnyo:

I considered allowing death saves in a time-limited format. They would certainly add some excitement. The problem is that due to their stigma as 'cheating', many players don't bother to learn how to do them, and doing them well (like how Bowen does them) takes a lot of practice. It could end up being an overwhelming advantage for some players.

I don't think they should be allowed at all. If the ball is in the outlane, past any sort of ball save feature, your ball is dead. I can assure you that although nudging is a very important part of pinball, death saves and bangbacks are not. Sure if you want to have a trick shot tournament for novelty, but these actions have no place in a true tournament IMO.

#237 4 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

I don't think they should be allowed at all. If the ball is in the outlane, past any sort of ball save feature, your ball is dead. I can assure you that although nudging is a very important part of pinball, death saves and bangbacks are not. Sure if you want to have a trick shot tournament for novelty, but these actions have no place in a true tournament IMO.

i agree... do whatever you want physically to the machine while the ball is in play... but once the defenses of the machine have defeated the player, that's it, your ball should always be considered "gone"...

they don't even have a place in casual pinball...

#238 4 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

past any sort of ball save feature

Keep the ball in. sometime the ball goes down the middle and pops out.

#239 4 years ago
Quoted from DirtyDeeds:

Keep the ball in. sometime the ball goes down the middle and pops out.

yeah but you did nothing to cause that. I am sure every once in a while a crazy air ball has hit the out lane and bounced back in as well. But if the ball rolls down the outlane and you force it back into play, that it totally different. I think most everyone here knows the difference between random luck and a force generated by the player to bring a dead ball back into play. Again, just my opinion.

#240 4 years ago

Sometimes, a teeny-tiny nudge is all that's needed for a deathsave. The opportunity shows itself when the ball shoots down the outlane with a high velocity. A little left-right wiggle like you're doing a slap save and bam! Up comes the ball.

#241 4 years ago
Quoted from pinBilly:

Sometimes, a teeny-tiny nudge is all that's needed for a deathsave. The opportunity shows itself when the ball shoots down the outlane with a high velocity. A little left-right wiggle like you're doing a slap save and bam! Up comes the ball.

sorry, it has gone down the outlane. Ball over.

#242 4 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

If the ball is in the outlane, past any sort of ball save feature, your ball is dead.

Tell that to the ball I walked up the outlane of a game at the SCS champs this year..

#243 4 years ago
Quoted from Frax:

Tell that to the ball I walked up the outlane of a game at the SCS champs this year..

Not sure I know what you're talking about. If that was within the rules, good for you. If you got away with something that wasn't allowed, then you cheated.

#244 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Slick Chick is my first pin with 2" flippers and I'm loving it. I can't imagine playing Slick Chick without nudging!

I'm glad it works.

#245 4 years ago
Quoted from ccotenj:

i agree... do whatever you want physically to the machine while the ball is in play... but once the defenses of the machine have defeated the player, that's it, your ball should always be considered "gone"...
they don't even have a place in casual pinball...

Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

If the designers of the game wanted to prevent them, it would be very simple to do so. The flippers could go dead as soon as the outlane rollover is triggered. But they don't.

Also, a well-executed death save impresses the chicks.

#246 4 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Not sure I know what you're talking about. If that was within the rules, good for you. If you got away with something that wasn't allowed, then you cheated.

Just a shake save, or whatever the real name is, totally legit. Ball bounces left and right and 'walks' back out of the top area of the outlane.

#247 4 years ago
Quoted from KloggMonkey:

Just a shake save, or whatever the real name is, totally legit. Ball bounces left and right and 'walks' back out of the top area of the outlane.

Crazy. Yeah I mean if it's legit and the tilt lets you, more power to ya. I'm all for it.

#248 4 years ago

Here a clip of one happening: Start at 50 sec in.

#250 4 years ago
Quoted from jonnyo:

Bangbacks and death saves are not allowed in most tournaments. The tournaments would go on forever if they were. The only time I've seen them allowed was in fun tournaments run by non-pinballers. They had never seen them before and so didn't even know to make them against the rules.

They had an 'Anything Goes' tourney at FGW a few months ago. Not sure if Per ran it. I didn't attend, but I'd love to hear how it turned out. Because it obviously couldn't award points, you can't look up who attended on the IFPA site to see who went. Ask Per next time you see him. If he didn't run it, I'm sure he knows the details.

Quoted from ccotenj:

imo... the "best way" to learn nudging skills is to acquire a 2" flipper 60's em, and play the living crap out of it... as myself (and others) have noted multiple times on this thread, good nudging skills are a MUST on those machines... you will learn "what works and what doesn't" simply by playing it a LOT...
but that's coming from someone who cut his teeth on them...

I also cut my teeth on EM's and I mostly agree. Even better than having a good nudging game at home is to regularly play games like that with good nudgers. You play a few games on Sweet Hearts with Rick Stetta and you will learn. Guaranteed. On EM's especially, knowing when *not* to flip is just about as important as nudging. That's the biggest thing I learned from Rick. He'll nudge or dead flipper pass 5 or 6 times on an EM without scoring a single point or flipping. Watching really good players do stuff like that in person is by far the best way to learn.

Classic divisions at tournaments are also an excellent place to learn nudging techniques. At a well run tournament, the EM games should have looser tilts as many EM games end the game for a tilt. There are some older guys that regularly travel around and always play (well) in the EM divisions. If you see a greying or balding dude wearing white tennis shoes playing in classics, pay attention. Old dudes can nudge. d

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