(Topic ID: 117693)

"Nudging is wrong"


By mof

4 years ago



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  • 302 posts
  • 134 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by ccotenj
  • Topic is favorited by 5 Pinsiders

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There are 302 posts in this topic. You are on page 4 of 7.
#151 4 years ago

How can people that don't nudge make a shot that sets up for a centre drain just watch the ball roll straight down the drain and not want to do something about it? You just let it go after u made ur shot?

#152 4 years ago
Quoted from Gate-keeper:

How can people that don't nudge make a shot that sets up for a centre drain just watch the ball roll straight down the drain and not want to do something about it? You just let it go after u made ur shot?

U wave bye bye at it with the flippers. That's doing something ain't it?

Is nudging wrong?

nameofthegame.jpg

It's the name of the freakin' game!

#153 4 years ago
Quoted from balzofsteel:

U wave bye bye at it with the flippers. That's doing something ain't it?

Something useless....

#154 4 years ago
Quoted from Anth:

Agreed, I do think pulling your hand completely off the buttons and slapping them back into the buttons is inefficient and harder to time though.

I disagree, it's about moving the machine a little and flipping simultaneously. It's a vakud nudge technique.

#155 4 years ago
Quoted from gweempose:

So it seems like most of us are in agreement that nudging is an integral part of the game. How do you guys feel about a hard sideways shove to save a SDTM drain? I do this on my machines all the time. I can often save the ball with this technique, but it usually results in a double tilt warning. To me, this is a perfectly acceptable move, but I would be hesitant to do it on someone else's machine.

It's fine to do on your own machines, and I think it's generally acceptable for tournament play. I hesitate to invite a guest back who thinks it's OK to slide save on my games; that's just a little too rough, and I don't like having to reorient every damn game after a night of pinball.

That said, I definitely encourage new players to experiment with nudging. I'm absolutely find with people tilting my games on occasion - that's how you find how tight the tilt is.

#156 4 years ago

Hey guys, I am wanting to put cabinet protectors on the legs of my pins and was curious which one was better..the metal ones, felt ones or the newer plastic ones (Pinguard).

http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=catalog&mode=search&search_in=all&search_str=cabinet+protectors

#157 4 years ago
Quoted from Collin:

That said, I definitely encourage new players to experiment with nudging. I'm absolutely find with people tilting my games on occasion - that's how you find how tight the tilt is.

I often tilt games at shows or on location. Every game is different, so you got to find out how much leeway you have for nudging on that first game.

th.png
#158 4 years ago
Quoted from FishPharm:

Hey guys, I am wanting to put cabinet protectors on the legs of my pins and was curious which one was better..the metal ones, felt ones or the newer plastic ones (Pinguard).
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=catalog&mode=search&search_in=all&search_str=cabinet+protectors

What kind of cabinet, with decals you have to use the metal under leg, otherwise your decals will wrinkle. Wood cabinets, plastic is fine.

#159 4 years ago
Quoted from gatordad:

Last time I nudged I heard
Cheating makes baby Jesus cry!

and THAT is why I miss my TSPP and will probably by another one someday

#161 4 years ago
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

What kind of cabinet, with decals you have to use the metal under leg, otherwise your decals will wrinkle. Wood cabinets, plastic is fine.

I havea CFTBL and a STTNG....so should I get the metal ones?

#162 4 years ago

I read most of the thread and am somewhat amazed at some of the responses. Why would games of skill have "tilt warnings" if it was not ok to move games around? Sure, there is good reason that Death saves AND bang-backs are banned from most all current leagues and competitive pinball.

HOWEVER, I have one request... If you don't nudge or wiggle the pinball game at all when you play...

If someone that you do not know asks you to play with them, please let them know this fact before you start. That way, they can be sure they know you don't care if you win and vise-verse.

Anyone that is not nudging or tilting is not trying to win and I have very little interest in playing pinball with people that don't want to win. Why even keep score?

10
#163 4 years ago
Quoted from snyper2099:

Anyone that is not nudging or tilting is not trying to win and I have very little interest in playing pinball with people that don't want to win. Why even keep score?

I can play for fun with non-nudgers. Not a problem. (especially if she's hot d The big problem happens when you get invited to someone's crib that doesn't allow nudging. Put simply, I don't want those invitations. I've been nudging for more than 40 years now and I'm not going to pretend I'm enjoying playing your games while not nudging. That would make me extremely uncomfortable. I'd rather play the dirty leaning games down at Crazy Bob's than play your pins. I rarely do death saves because I'm not good at them and I don't do bang backs. Thankfully, most saying they don't allow it don't live in my area. So I likely won't have to politely decline any invitations soon.

Also, if your legs bolts are coming loose due to nudging, you didn't tighten them enough. Properly tightened leg bolts won't come loose from nudging. If you're not sure, get a torque wrench and set it to 50 lbs. Leg bolts should never come loose.

#164 4 years ago
Quoted from nhm:

Nudging is for amateurs. Sliding is where it's at. Much harder to master the slide without tilting. When I play in local tournaments, I always take note of the floor surface. Smooth tile and any polished surface are ideal for sliding. You just have to make sure that you don't slide into the game next to you.

Sometimes at CA tournaments, the legs of the games are taped down to the floor. It was either painters tape or duct tape, and it was on there pretty thick. So the game literally could not be slid around at all. I remember this happening at California Extreme and It Never Drains tournaments.

Nudging was still possible of course, it's just that sliding was largely impossible.

#165 4 years ago

there are actually more ways to manipulate than nudging, even when tilt is tight. its not possible to compete at a high level unless you nudge and other manipulations. even if you are the most accurate player with your shots, when balls comes from pops on games like ac dc or pops on TWD its headed stdm unless you do something about it. a lot of ems like 3 coin require nudging if you want to save the ball with 6 inch gaps between the flippers thats why certain rubber is placed in design areas (as was centaur mentioned) same with IJ (williams) rt outlane, bally flip flop, and a host of others,.

other ball save or change ball trajectory methods:

warbling (when ball is headed stdm)
slap save (2 handed)
hard button press (to do post catches).
habitrail shimmy- when ball is going down a habitrail to a flipper in lane to slow the ball down so you can cradle it quickly.
side slap- when a ball is coming down a loop and its about to hit the sling shot, so you slap the cabinet to make the ball avoid the slingshot and either live catch it on the flipper or let it dead bounce.
Lock bar dampener- slapping palm of hand on lock bar when ball is hitting slings to compress some of the force.

there is much more..thats just a sample.

#166 4 years ago

I would also like to mention that a lot of digital simulations of pinball also include the ability to nudge as a part of the programming.

#167 4 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

I would also like to mention that a lot of digital simulations of pinball also include the ability to nudge as a part of the programming.

A good quality virtual pinball machine will have an nudge sensor (accelerometer) installed that allows you to move the table around and affect the ball. My cabinet also has a tilt sensor (plumb bob) installed, so the game will let you know if your to rough.

Just a question for the non-nudges. What do you do if the ball stops and gets stuck somewhere? Do you wiggle it free, or just stop your game. give up and take the glass off.

#168 4 years ago
Quoted from Luckydogg420:

What do you do if the ball stops and gets stuck somewhere? Do you wiggle it free, or just stop your game. give up and take the glass off.

Valid question!

#169 4 years ago

When I got my first machine, I didn't nudge because I was afraid of breaking something. Then I watched a few videos and talked to some other pinheads and now I love nudge my machine. I get a real sense of accomplishment when I can properly nudge the machine and save a ball while not tilting a machine. I do my absolute best not to do it in anger and only when I'm legitimately trying to save a ball.

I talked to a guy right after I got my machine that has about 10 on location, all are very high end titles (TAF, MB, AC/DC LE, Metallica LE, WH2O, SS, ToM, etc). I asked him if it bothered him watching people smacking his machines around. His response was that he had seen thousands of dollars over the years in damage to machines, but never from nudging. He also said that he's a big fan of the death save, as I watched him do it on every game we played. That was enough for me.

I don't nudge at other people's house until I watch them and see how they play their own machines. Even then, I keep it toned down.

My wife used to worry that I would hurt the machine when smacking it around, although recently I've seen her give it a hip check or two.

#170 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

I do not nudge and ask people to nudge their own machines. My house, my rules. When I play at your house I go by your rules.
Also, some people don't want drinks on, or by their machines. I'm one of them.

See i'm just the opposite. When I see a sidelane drain, that might have been avoided, I start coaching. I'll usually say, "you should have Bad Santa'd the shit out of that".

#171 4 years ago
Quoted from FishPharm:

Hey guys, I am wanting to put cabinet protectors on the legs of my pins and was curious which one was better..the metal ones, felt ones or the newer plastic ones (Pinguard).
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=catalog&mode=search&search_in=all&search_str=cabinet+protectors

Just for the record, and i've said this at least 30 times on this site. The plastic ones are not protectors. not only will they not protect anything, but cause more damage farther into the cabinet than just the legs will.

For those that miss it.

Plastic cabinet ruiners, are not protectors. The metal ones are awesome and should be used on every game you have.

#172 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

Just for the record, and i've said this at least 30 times on this site. The plastic ones are not protectors. not only will they not protect anything, but cause more damage farther into the cabinet than just the legs will.
For those that miss it.
Plastic cabinet ruiners, are not protectors. The metal ones are awesome and should be used on every game you have.

What about the felt ones? I would think just from a material standpoint that felt would be the best option. I haven't used any protectors on my games yet.

#173 4 years ago
Quoted from FishPharm:

I havea CFTBL and a STTNG....so should I get the metal ones?

If they have decals, then the neutral ones in your link for sure. Wouldn't hurt for all machines, but wood I might go with plastic, that's just me.

#174 4 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

What about the felt ones? I would think just from a material standpoint that felt would be the best option. I haven't used any protectors on my games yet.

If your machine has decals, anything other than the metal ones, they will wrinkle over time. I've heard of people even scoring the decal around the metal protector with an exacto blade, to eliminate any chance of wrinkling.

#175 4 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

What about the felt ones? I would think just from a material standpoint that felt would be the best option. I haven't used any protectors on my games yet.

I've been using felt ones for many years without any damage to the pins. BUT the ones I'm using are made of very thick and rigid felt and most important, they are cut just slightly smaller than the legs are. You can't see them on the machines, you can only see that the metal of the legs seems to be "floating" above the cab at the edges.

"Oversized" plastic or felt protectors are meant to dress up existing damage, not to protect. Actually they will make the damage worse.

If I would get into the protecting business these days I would use the "Stern-Style" (metal or plastic) protectors. The effect is pretty similar to the oldschool felt ones I'm using.

#176 4 years ago

I think Stern switched from the metal ones to plastic ones at some point. I guess they needed to save a couple bucks per machine ...

#177 4 years ago

I always encourage nudging, i'm not building a museum here.

#178 4 years ago

"I thought you humans were more civilized", when you tilt avengers pinball....

image.jpg
#179 4 years ago

I did it again last night

I was told "Your a funny guy"

#180 4 years ago
Quoted from silver_spinner:

there are actually more ways to manipulate than nudging, even when tilt is tight. its not possible to compete at a high level unless you nudge and other manipulations. even if you are the most accurate player with your shots, when balls comes from pops on games like ac dc or pops on TWD its headed stdm unless you do something about it. a lot of ems like 3 coin require nudging if you want to save the ball with 6 inch gaps between the flippers thats why certain rubber is placed in design areas (as was centaur mentioned) same with IJ (williams) rt outlane, bally flip flop, and a host of others,.
other ball save or change ball trajectory methods:
warbling (when ball is headed stdm)
slap save (2 handed)
hard button press (to do post catches).
habitrail shimmy- when ball is going down a habitrail to a flipper in lane to slow the ball down so you can cradle it quickly.
side slap- when a ball is coming down a loop and its about to hit the sling shot, so you slap the cabinet to make the ball avoid the slingshot and either live catch it on the flipper or let it dead bounce.
Lock bar dampener- slapping palm of hand on lock bar when ball is hitting slings to compress some of the force.
there is much more..thats just a sample.

I read your post very carefully. First, thank you for mentioning all of these. I do consider all of the examples here "nudging" as it pertains to modern competitive pinball. I define "nudging" as moving the game in any way to affect ball travel.

A slide save IS nudging in my book... I don't allow movement on my league games by simply putting two of the rubber caster cups (pinball life sells) on the two front legs. They make slide saves nearly impossible and I would suggest to any tournament directors to place them on the front legs of games if they do not want slide saves implemented into competition.

#181 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballcorpse:

Sounds like something out of a pinball bible: Nudge not, lest ye be nudged.

Now that's clever and funny! You're humor is not lost here! Thanks for giving me a laugh on a Monday at work!

Tom

#182 4 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

What about the felt ones? I would think just from a material standpoint that felt would be the best option. I haven't used any protectors on my games yet.

Felt ones are great for awhile, but then the legs will dig in, squish them flat and eventually start digging into the cabinet. metal ones are the only long term fix.

#183 4 years ago

I look at it this way, if a friend invites you over to play pins or vids be polite and go with their rules. They are the ones who paid for the machines. It appears that from what people are saying, nudging and similar types of maneuvers does have the ability to damage the machine if cabinet protectors aren't being used.

#184 4 years ago
Quoted from FishPharm:

I look at it this way, if a friend invites you over to play pins or vids be polite and go with their rules. They are the ones who paid for the machines.

Agreed. I will just stand there and not put a hand on their machines, if that will make them happy. As long as there are refreshments.

#185 4 years ago

I forgot where I saw it but one of the designers was being interviewed and the lady said hey your nudging isnt that cheating ? and he said that is all part of the game and playing it, something along those lines. as long as it isnt extreme after seeing that a little nudging is a good thing for me.

#186 4 years ago

I set most of my games with whisper-tilt (tm) settings. It is interesting to watch players who are used to being physical with games deal with the situation at hand. The interesting thing for me is, when my games are really not tolerant of manipulation... I learn to do more with less. As a consequence, I am able to make saves that most people would not be able to and in many cases, without a tilt warning. Thumb-leashes (r) also make many physical techniques less intense yet still effective.

I love it.

#187 4 years ago

I nudge pretty frequently and I hate overly tight tilt settings. I don't know anyone around here that has a 'no nudging' policy for their collection and if they did, (like snyper said) I wouldn't feel comfortable playing there. It would feel like I'm not really playing and I'm sure I would instinctively nudge at some point and risk pissing them off. I played in league against someone who kept berating me for nudging, saying I was abusing the machines (not their games), but I just kept playing to win until I did. I bust my ass to shell out $ for the pins I own and I nudge them all the time without any concern. I'm not talking about throwing the game around or shoving it out of anger, just playing like it's meant to be played. Nothing bad is going to happen to the machines.

#188 4 years ago

These games are made to be played in bowling alleys, bars and truck stops. People who get precious about pinball need to cool the f#*k out over that action. Someone did that to me once, then we started playing games for $$$. But don't call me a shark.... At least when it was over I bought the joker a drink.

#189 4 years ago

Agree--
I used to set the tilt on my games tight, like 1/2 the tilt bob in the circle (EM tilt)- and I played for a while, and a bit longer (months) and then started to notice that I basically sucked and never was getting better. I have friends who hated to play my games because they titled them all the time (never bothered me.. its not like they were slamming the game)- and in the process consistently destroyed my scores. So, gradually they got me to loosen the tilt in my games, and kept killing me with high scores... but I started to learn how to play and Guess what- my scores went WAY up, my enjoyment went WAY up, and I actually own the high score on one of my machines.

Pinball is SO MUCH better when you play the game using the entire table- by nudging. It does nothing to harm the game whatsoever- it actually is how your supposed to play. Note- I own EM or early SS games only... I also play newer stuff in the arcade- and yep... nudge is rewarded there too.

#190 4 years ago
Quoted from Spybryon:

Sometimes at CA tournaments, the legs of the games are taped down to the floor. It was either painters tape or duct tape, and it was on there pretty thick. So the game literally could not be slid around at all. I remember this happening at California Extreme and It Never Drains tournaments.
Nudging was still possible of course, it's just that sliding was largely impossible.

The tape is usually not there to prevent nudging/sliding, but to mark the original position of the machine and where it was leveled, so that in the event it does get slid, you know exactly where to put it back.

To prevent sliding, rubber cups are the best. If you bring games to PAGG I definitely recommend bringing some as well because the floor is very slippery there. Home Depot has them. 1.75" is a good size. About $2 for 4. They are usually called "furniture cups" or "furniture casters".

#191 4 years ago
Quoted from jonnyo:

To prevent sliding, rubber cups are the best.

Yeah, all the tournament machines at PAGG last year were setup using those rubber feet (Tom has a big box of them all ready to go when we started leveling them all). Made a huge difference on sliding.

#192 4 years ago
Quoted from FishPharm:

if a friend invites you over to play pins or vids be polite and go with their rules. They are the ones who paid for the machines.

Agreed...Thank You! That's common courtesy.

Quoted from o-din:

Agreed. I will just stand there and not put a hand on their machines, if that will make them happy. As long as there are refreshments.

At my last party I paid over $300 for booze, snacks, chips, dip, wine, prizes, gifts, nuts & chew... heck I've even had custom trophies made. I'm real happy to share.

"If" someone wants to slam the shit out some games... go to the bowling alley, drop coins and the beat the games there.

There's a nudge and then there's abuse... there's a huge difference! All I ask my guests is to respect that.

#193 4 years ago

Are there any tips to making a game easier to nudge? I'm not talking about loosening the tilt mechanism or anything. My pins are on carpet so they can't slide at all. I can nudge them a bit but it takes some effort. I can't nudge it enough to avoid a center drain no matter how slow I see it coming. I'm mostly talking about my ST:PRO.

I'm still pretty new to the pinball scene and have only been a home pinball owner for about 6-7 months now. Yeah, it's safe to say it's my new obsession. I'm hooked and there's no going back. But I don't need to explain that to any of you.

Anyway, I'm a full nudge supporter. It just makes sense. Pinball is such a visceral hands-on game. Nudging just enhances that. Heck even the popular Pinball Arcade app has a nudging option built in.

As with the OP, I have a friend who was the one who got me into pinball in the first place(hey Dan!). For some reason he doesn't seem to want to nudge his machines. I've played his Tron plenty of times, showing him how I nudge. I still hold the high score on his machine. Sorry man. He doesn't care that I nudge his machine and I'm still careful with it and not sliding it all over the place.

It's just something that I feel you have to do as part of playing the game. For cripe's sake, pinball can be so damn frustrating at times even with nudging. I couldn't stand to just let balls drain without even trying to do something about it.

#194 4 years ago
Quoted from Caucasian2Step:

These games are made to be played in bowling alleys, bars and truck stops. People who get precious about pinball need to cool the f#*k out over that action. Someone did that to me once, then we started playing games for $$$. But don't call me a shark.... At least when it was over I bought the joker a drink.

When I first started this hobby my games had the tilts completely removed. My brother-in-law got excessive with the sliding, which put the game out of position many times and since the games are close together I became concerned for the safety of him and the others playing next to him. I explained him the difference between nudging and abuse and added the tilt pendulums back in as a reminder. Sometimes guests need to be reminded that we're not at a location arcade or truck stop, but we are not at a museum either - so the manipulation of the table should be allowed but the tilt is there to keep it in check.

#195 4 years ago
Quoted from Caucasian2Step:

I set most of my games with whisper-tilt (tm) settings. It is interesting to watch players who are used to being physical with games deal with the situation at hand. The interesting thing for me is, when my games are really not tolerant of manipulation... I learn to do more with less. As a consequence, I am able to make saves that most people would not be able to and in many cases, without a tilt warning. Thumb-leashes (r) also make many physical techniques less intense yet still effective.
I love it.

So how are you preventing the side drain or blooper straight down the middle? I think adjusting to an overly sensitive tilt means you just have to play very safe with constant trapping and keeping the ball away from the outlanes. Its fine until you play against someone on a normally set up machine.

The video of Lyman playing the Metallica pro shows a finesse player/nudger. To me, this is a level that anyone should find acceptable. The machines were designed with this in mind. The PAPA tutorials are great too, but they way they are filmed makes it hard to see the movement (only ones that are really obvious are the quick left/right shifts to prevent a drain down the middle).

#196 4 years ago
Quoted from TOK:

The video of Lyman playing the Metallica pro shows a finesse player/nudger. To me, this is a level that anyone should find acceptable.

That is one of the best videos I've ever seen when it comes to demonstrating proper nudging techniques and overall ball control. Lyman clearly shows that a properly executed nudge does not equate to abuse of the machine or automatically result in a tilt. He even demonstrates a great slide save at around the 5:12 mark. My favorite move of his is around the 5:00 mark, when he masterfully uses some minor nudging combined with a tap pass to get one ball on each flipper.

#197 4 years ago
Quoted from TOK:

The PAPA tutorials are great too, but they way they are filmed makes it hard to see the movement (only ones that are really obvious are the quick left/right shifts to prevent a drain down the middle).
» YouTube video

The TSPP papa video includes Bowen doing a bang back. (Followed by a minute or so of explaining why you should never do such a thing if only for the safety of your wrist.)

Cracked me up when I first saw it.

#198 4 years ago
Quoted from TOK:

So how are you preventing the side drain or blooper straight down the middle? I think adjusting to an overly sensitive tilt means you just have to play very safe with constant trapping and keeping the ball away from the outlanes. Its fine until you play against someone on a normally set up machine.
The video of Lyman playing the Metallica pro shows a finesse player/nudger. To me, this is a level that anyone should find acceptable. The machines were designed with this in mind. The PAPA tutorials are great too, but they way they are filmed makes it hard to see the movement (only ones that are really obvious are the quick left/right shifts to prevent a drain down the middle).
» YouTube video

Lyman is one of the best to ever play the game. I made a point of telling him that: "My life is better for the work you have done." The last time I met him.

As to your technique, Side drains are best "anticipated" by ball movement, placement and seeing further ahead of the trajectories and their most likely paths around the table. My spidey sense starts tingling earlier and earlier before a ball gets into a dangerous position/ place when I am playing well.

A true SDTM path is difficult to deal with even with a liberal setting on the tilt mech. Once again, the further off you can see it, the better of a chance you will have to defend against it. Watch Keith Elwins tutorial on Warlok as well as Ripley's Believe it or Not for some more excellent examples of these techniques. They may not be immediately apparent at first, but as you get better as a player, you will start to see what these guys are doing as soon as they sense a dangerous oncoming play.

#199 4 years ago

Nudging and slap-saving are fine in my gameroom, but NO slap-ass!

#200 4 years ago

If someone doesn't allow nudging at all on their machines, they can't play mine. Seems fair

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