I think we need a union.

No to be a dick, but your whole premise is ridiculous. It also shows the underlying arrogance of those involved (be it Nucore, PPS, or whomever).

If there are pin2000 machines that are broken and there is no viable fix available, no one is going to keep these bricks around. You know what will happen? Ops will trash them. Individuals will part them out for what value they can get and dump the rest.

Guess what? The Nucore guys just devalued their product because there are fewer machines, thus fewer sales, available. And, if your logic that the product was pulled because sales weren't what were expected, then it this isn't the scenario that improves that equation.

I guess it depends on what your goal(s) are. You can't say that pinbox guy gets a pass just because he potentially lives in his Mom's basement. Even if he doesn't have the money, you make it clear to everyone you won't tolerate people stealing your stuff. If someone's stolen thousands of hours of your life, I can understand wanting some payback.

I'm just waiting for someone to call us both pussies for not using ed or teco.

Hah.. Or Pico/Nano..

We have to give him a pass because he is obviously retarded.

No actual computer geek would post allegedly hacked software without protecting his IP address.

-

Or, as others have stated, Pinbox evidence was planted on the geek by spoofing his IP, as revenge for the Sith deal.

This post is quite inaccurate. First the release of pinbox didn't "ruin it for everyone". For we can now use pinbox while you grind your wheels on court. Nothing ruined. Second, this lawsuit should have nothing to do with whether or not the product is being sold. If williams or whomever was preventing sale due to the pinbox lawsuit, you could still sell your product without ROMs and let the users figure that out. By the way, several of us would be happy to use pinbox and pay you for the nucore. I mean there are so many options. But I'm afraid you guys are responsible for your situation.

Oh and I see Rick *is* involved. So much for him say he isn't.

The evidence submitted to the court shows server logs from the NuCore website. I'm not sure how the identified the IP as Master Geek.

Small snips in places to try to reply shorter...

Except, in the cases where you have a product like NuCore that eventually will be back, if you say "Okay, so NuCore isn't available now, I'm going to pirate Pinbox instead of fixing my board," you effectively have made it so that whatever happens to the game in the future, you're going to continue to use the warez version of the OS and not the legit one.

Effectively, because you are replacing something that isn't currently available with the same solution illegally, you are removing the future market for that particular item. Which ultimately *does* impact NuCore.

Again, the argument about stealing is goofy. If NuCore was available, and you STOLE the IP instead of paying for it, you are taking the money away from them, *especially* in the case where you are repairing a freaking pinball game with it. Also, and maybe this is what some people don't understand, *NUCORE IS NOT THE ONLY WAY TO FIX A P2K MACHINE!!* You can fix the boards, you can repair the computer. It's possible. It was done to mine *right* before I got it, and not too long before NuCore came out, which is why I could never justify spending the money on NuCore earlier on.

For so many people who are okay with dropping $8k on a machine to be whining about not wanting to do a repair that costs a couple hundred bucks because something else is out there is just goofy.

Again, maybe I'm the only one on Pinside that does much of my own P2K repair work, but PinBox / NuCore is NOT THE ONLY WAY to repair your machines! And I don't just mean finding other parts, I mean with a soldering iron and some skill and time, you can FIX THE COMPUTER! And if you can't, there are people that can (Rob Anthony for one!). No to be a dick either, but putting PinBox on a system is probably *harder* than just getting it fixed by someone.

As for NuCore guys "devaluing" their product, *it is their right to do that*. It is their right to do whatever the heck they want with what they created. I might have created the best code for JP ever, but if I want to throw it in the garbage and not give it out, that is MY right. It isn't YOUR right to say, "Well, it's arrogant of them not to give me something I want for free." *Especially* when there are other ways to fix it.

Glad I have a quote from you to end it with, I feel like you're the most reasonable in this...

I can only imagine that they wouldn't want to sell the product without ROMs because then they are encouraging end users to do almost exactly what they are accusing the Pinbox dude of doing. "Hey, here's this, go find a way to pirate the rest!" doesn't really hold up when you are looking at someone else in court for that exact reason.

As for Williams preventing it, I can actually see that. I know an extremely small behind-the-scenes bit of how those licenses work thanks to conversations I have had with previous rights holders, and they are overprotective of what they have. What I think would be great is if Williams gave up the rights to the software that ran their games with the understanding that if you blow up your game after putting new software on it, that's on you. Realistically, Williams doesn't support my Popeye (or whatever) any more if it's code screws up, and other companies have done this with their products successfully. I think that rejuvenating the code for titles with things like CCC would only be a very positive thing, but there seems to be a belief that there is money to keeping it in house.

Having said that, even if that happened, which clearly doesn't seem like it is, the only thing that would change is that NuCore would have nothing holding back it's release. You would and should still have to pay for it if that is what the authors want. And, if you haven't seen NuCore running before, it's most definitely worth it - I just couldn't personally justify the $500 cost when I was unemployed.

So NuCore got hacked?

No the Nucore guys submitted their own server logs.

It was just an apache server log...not sure how they linked it to Master Geek.

And.......???

They saw Geek's spoofed IP?

They saw unusual traffic?

They had set up a honey pot?

Editied my response before you replied. No idea. It's just a raw server log with an IP address.

This part doesn't make sense to me. There is no market for this product except for people who already own the game. That means that they already have the roms.

Thanks for posting the price. I have only had an RFM for a week, and I haven't seen a price yet.

But in any case, they didn't need the IP address. They subpoenaed the registar of PinBox.com and got all the contact info.

I never saw the pinbox site. Did this guy just crack nucore and publish it on his own site or did it re-package it and claim it was his work?

What kind of hacker would steal software and then publish it on a site registered to himself???

Unless...........it was all a frameup because of the Sith.

Well, they do have a big-o-beam...

He made a post on here and RGP with a link to the Pinbox site where you could download the software.

It's a Pin2k emulator packaged into a Linux distribution, and according to the NuCore guys the software was directly ripped from their stuff....but that hasn't even been proven yet- that will need to happen in Court.

Link to thread:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/nucore-alternative-announced-1

Yea not a smart move. Interestingly enough, Master Geeks profile says he is in Canada, but the registration info/lawsuit was filed to a Georgia address.

So while I was reading through the pinbox announcement thread, I had this vision of Vid standing in front of a whiteboard doing a differential diagnosis like House on TV. I don't have enough medical background to come up with long series of events culminating in a pinball moving through the dude's arteries. However, the phrase "mentally retarded" was the only one left on the board.

Long thread, with not much hope in sight.

So here's my situation... I have an RFM and a SWE1 upgrade kit. I also have a couple motherboards, a couple PRISM cards, some PUB cards - basically the works. I also bought NuCore - every piece, every option, the case that fits in the P2K head, etc. Everything.

If you try to install a copy of Ubuntu that they included with NuCore, you can't add the various libraries that NuCore requires because that crusty version of Ubuntu is no longer supported and the repositories are no longer online. So basically, if you want to do a fresh install of NuCore today - you are hosed.

I also have a copy of PinBox burned on a DVD somewhere around here... And if the hard disk in my machine goes toes up (as they tend to do at the worst possible time), there's no doubt in my mind that I will load up an SSD with PinBox and run it in my machine. There doesn't seem to be an option to do otherwise, much as I would prefer to run the real NuCore version (THAT I PAID FOR).

So is someone going to swoop down out of nowhere and try to sue me? Really? That's pathetic.

As to not being able to sell NuCore without the ROM images with it - doesn't anyone who would want NuCore (or PinBox for that matter) already have a set of ROMs in their RFM/SWE1? I mean, NuCore isn't worth anything without a real P2K to run it in... And every P2K came with ROMs for the playfield that came in it. I guess I don't see why anyone should have to pay for software (ROM images) they already own with the machine.

Seems like a big mess that just leaves the owners SOL.

Have you tried emailing the newcore makers to see if they can help with the Linux install, IF you needed to use it in the near term?

Also, thank you to them / him for actually saying what they can. Doesn't cleary "everything" up, but they were clear about one important thing: they want to make this available again.

I am sure they and the person responsible for pinbox have a bunch in common (tech savvy pinheads who are into pin2K). It is too bad things went down the way it did. I am sure if they met out in the real world somewhere, they would have at the very least had some stuff to talk about. Too bad the decision to publicly post Pinbox came when it did, or at all.

You are making an emotional, selfish argument that has zero basis in law. You are taking IP protected by copyright in that the owners maintain the right to decide how and when that material is duplicated and distributed. Period.

If the owner decides to sell said IP or not does not change the definitions or laws at all. Maybe it makes you feel better, or helps you justify it to yourself... but in the legal sense it doesn't change anything.

It's the same reason people are not allowed to reproduce previous pinball art even though the product is NLA. And it's the same reason you wouldn't be able to reproduce original art pieces even if the art wasn't for sale to start with.

Reproduction without authorization is theft - the whole notion of 'there was nothing to steal because you didn't lose it' is complete nonsense. Theft does not require something physical to be removed. You can steal an idea... a design... and yes things like written word.

Nonsense. If you have a written story for a book.. and I duplicate it and publish it. I still stole the story and copyrighted material even if the original copy was never removed from you.

Of course all this righteous talk of copying other's intellectual property comes from people who have stolen copyrighted avatars.....

Theft is the taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft

Copyright infringement is the use of works protected by copyright law without permission, infringing certain exclusive rights granted to the copyright holder, such as the right to reproduce, distribute, display or perform the protected work, or to make derivative works.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement

So you are saying that every possible issue with a broken board can be fixed

Nobody here has said they want anything for free. Quite the opposite actually...they are begging NuCore to take their money.

Well, whether pinbox infringes on Nucor or not is a legal conclusion left to others to determine. I really don't know the answer as I haven't looked into this suit at all.

All I know is I have an RFM that is a keeper in my collection. I'd like a legal licensed product in reserve in case my CPU ever quits on me.

I'd like to see some kind of time table from the Nucor people on when the product would be available. Saying the litigation needs to conclude before their product comes to back to market to me means we may never see the product again. I've seen lawsuits worth far more money take decades...I don't see this case ending soon (though granted I have not analyzed it...but regardless of the strength of the claim these things have a way of dragging on and on).

I'll change my avatar as soon as I get a c&d letter from Rankin Bass.

The DMCA has exemptions for stuff that should cover useing any software / hardware to make your payed for code / hardware work.

Computer programs protected by dongles that prevent access due to malfunction or damage and which are obsolete. A dongle shall be considered obsolete if it is no longer manufactured or if a replacement or repair is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace. (A renewed exemption from 2006, based on a similar exemption approved in 2003.)

And infringment can be shown to cause financial harm or LOSS - and why the law allows for collection of damages to offset it. When you create a LOSS for someone, you have taken things from them.

You're trying to split hairs to justify some mentality with language completely out of context. If you were trying to argue the legal terms.. you should try using the correct words to start with. But if you want an example of theft that actually does not require physically removing something from someone to debunk your claims... here's a cite that actually has weight.. not a wikipedia word definition.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1832

18 U.S. Code § 1832 - Theft of trade secrets

(a) Whoever, with intent to convert a trade secret, that is related to a product or service used in or intended for use in interstate or foreign commerce, to the economic benefit of anyone other than the owner thereof, and intending or knowing that the offense will, injure any owner of that trade secret, knowingly—
(1) steals, or without authorization appropriates, takes, carries away, or conceals, or by fraud, artifice, or deception obtains such information;
(2) without authorization copies, duplicates, sketches, draws, photographs, downloads, uploads, alters, destroys, photocopies, replicates, transmits, delivers, sends, mails, communicates, or conveys such information;
[...]

An example of the use of THEFT without needing to physically remove it from the owner.

If you want to argue over what larceny is vs copyright infringement is... go right ahead... but the idea that copyright infringement isn't theft in the sense it takes things without permission from people is simply self serving mantras to try to justify behavior.

Ask any creator who has their work improperly taken from them or devalued by others if they are against the words like 'stolen' or 'theft' being applied to their situation.

I bought one of the last Nucore kits PinballLife had after they announced the 'current' version would no longer be available. I also bought all the parts to build a new system for my RFM and stored everything away for the day when my OEM computer crapped out. I found out last year about this time that the Ubuntu Nucore utilizes was not going to be supported any longer and the library repostitory was going to become vaporware. I procrastinated too long and when I went to look for the files I was SOL.

Kind of ironic that Nucore was made to run on newer hardware since the original is obsolete and now the very software system Nucore requires is obsolete.

I would hope the Nucore guys would have backup copies of the required library files - time to send a quick e-mail....

So now your argument is that IP = trade secrets. Using the term "theft" WRT IP infringement is a blatant propaganda campaign generated by the MPAA and RIAA to try to make downloading somehow dirty. In fact, the most infamous IP pirate Jammie Thomas-Rasset has never been accused of theft. Your buying into the false meme just shows you are unwilling to reasonably differentiate between two greatly different infractions.

Am I depriving Metallica of profits when I d/l their latest trash music and decide I don't want to buy it. Or must I pay them to sample the trash I would never buy? Did I steal their song by downloading it, or did I just not pay them money to sample their wares?

Did Mozart "steal" Gregorio Allegri's Miserere when after hearing it, he laid the score to paper and proceeded to distribute the score to friends and acquaintances?

Intellectual Property rights are a human construct designed to use the state to take away others' rights to freely use and distribute that which has already been distributed. The law (also a human construct) attempts to force control of human creations to the creator of the work. Now that the Disney standard of copyright (perpetual) is in play it is time for us all to break this human construct that steals from all of humanity in the exact same way an IP infringer steals from the holder. How is it that a patent lasts only 17 years, but now the law moves the goalposts just in time for copyright to be perpetual? Can you ever see a day when Mickey Mouse becomes public domain? That time has long past, but the law has accommodated the Disney corporation allowing them to continue their stronghold over this character in perpetuity. Don't you think Bobcat would have enjoyed keeping their skid steer IP in perpetuity. You see my argument here is that the state is neither moral nor right in being the final arbiter of Intellectual Property Rights. They simply are paid to choose the winners and losers in the free market by those who can most help them maintain their own power.

In truth, no one is stealing and my point is simply to demonstrate that theft <> IP infringement.

Edited to add: Nucore has bought into this fight with no real exit strategy. FOr them to expect potential customers to wait for some sort of resolution is asinine. They have only shot themselves in the feet by not selling the hardware combinations that work with pinbox, nucore code or the original pin2k code or whatever it is that they are calling "their software". By focusing on forcing people to use their entire product creation, they have ended up with no product. How can anyone ever see their strategy as anything but an utter failure? By halting distribution of their entire product line, they effectively killed their business. How could anyone begin to understand the decisions that got them to where they are now? Smart people make stupid decisions all the time. Obviously that is what has happened here.

I would say the chance of you getting sued for that example is about 0.00%

If you tried to sell a system with pinbox installed, and advertised it as such? Maybe the chances would go up to about 2%....

By the way, all you folks championing the IP banner here, please ensure you've removed any video game ROMS, pinball ROMS, etc from your computers, mame machines, etc.... Wouldn't want to make hypocrites of you during your crusade here

I'm kinda surprised that all the Pinbrowser stuff is allowed on Pinside since that is IP theft as well. Changing the music, sounds and graffix of someone's software without their permission is just as illegal as what Pinbox did. Might even be worse because there are 3rd parties involved such as the bands of the music that is swapped in without their permission. Same goes for some of the alt translites that have been sold on here recently. but then Stern doesn't seem to mind so maybe we can justify that it's alright to break the law in that circumstance?

So-simple question:
If I were going to buy either a SW or RFM TODAY-what would I be better off with? A working original system, or a (currently) working Nucore?

There is a difference between knowingly making a choice... vs lying to yourself to change/justify the choice.

I can call driving 60mph in a 55 speeding and illegal and still chose to drive 60mph knowing the chance of it negatively impacting me is small. But if I believe and advocate to people "its not really speeding because its just 5mph and everyone is doing it" - you're simply lying to yourself to make your choice seem more justifiable to yourself.

No it's not the same. It's a huge difference... the browser is a tool used by individuals to modify their own game. It is a tool to manipulate software under grounds allowed under current law for personal use. That is not the same as distributing copyrighted material, or distributing modified or derivative works of copyrighted material.

The translite stuff can fall into trouble is if it starts using trademarked or copyrighted material in the artwork. "all original art" doesn't hold up when you start using trademarked names, etc.

Today I would go for the working Nucore no question. Newer/better hardware and better opportunity for support. I would save a couple copies of Pinbox for a rainy day though just in case Nucore 2.0 never materializes and you run out of other options for repairing your game in the future. I don't condone what Master Geek did but I'm thankful that I now have an insurance policy in case my original Pin2K computer craps out and I run out of better (legal) options.

So if Pinbox were a tool that allowed us to hack Nucore and repackage it ourselves for our own use then it would be legal and accepted behavior in the pinball community? Either would be manipulating derivative copyrighted material. Had Master Geek not distributed Pinbox and just ran Pinbox on his personal Pin2K setup does that constitute "fair use"?

First, it was around $500. I don't remember the exact price, I just remember that I was unemployed, knew it was a relatively big expenditure that I did not have to do even though I had some money in savings, and put it of. The time they announced it was ending was literally a week or two after I landed my first real job again, and was actually planning on getting it.

As to the ROM part that doesn't make sense - NuCore contained the game ROMs in it because you could not plug the Prism card into the system to make it work. Essentially, once you got NuCore you could sell your old system entirely and it would work (and it would be legal, because you would have a new license with the ROMs). The ROM license from Williams from what I remember is funky, unlike most I believe that the only thing they put out was the updates to the original code, which is on the ROMs. Otherwise, again, the code would be downloadable free and none of this would matter.

No, if you light the board on fire, you probably can't fix it. But yes, the vast majority of problems can be fixed. Look, it's no different than 10 years ago when you got Popeye (or whatever) and the board in it went bad with battery acid everywhere - there weren't any drop in replacements at the time, so you had to figure out what to do. If anything, owners of P2K machines today should STILL be happy about NuCore because the price of replacement parts is still much lower than what they were before NuCore. Pre-NuCore a working computer from a game was a $1000+ part. I haven't seen them that expensive in ages.

As for your statement that no one is asking for anything for free, I see it as everyone who is saying that they will be using PinBox because there is no other way to fix their machine *is not* begging NuCore to take their money. They are wanting a free solution to a problem that could be solved legally in a lot of different ways.

If Pinbox were a toll that allowed you to hack NuCore and repackage it *AND* you already owned NuCore, yes it would be absolutely legal and accepted. You can't run PinBrowser without owning the other product. AND, if you loaded your Metallica code with Eminem and went to sell it, that absolutely would be illegal.

Tools to bypass copy protection/dongles in general are not allowed to be created and distributed. In that sense, your theoretical tool would be illegal on those grounds.

There are exceptions to this to allow what the law considers fair, lawful use... But since nucore is still supported, the obsolete exceptions would not apply.

Had the author did the work only for his own use he'd have more defenses.

If pinbox simply allowed you to simply modify an existing nucore system and did not include other peoples ip or attempts at bypassing the copy protection .

Some may try to make fair use claims that would justify being able to bypass the copy protection but that would be a serious uphill battle and would probably fail court challenges if the copy protection was only active at run time

Again, another inaccurate analogy.

If you publish something, it is for PUBLIC consumption and very likely some monetary consideration.

If you use Pinbox, it is for PRIVATE use on a machine that you own, including the ROMs. You have not signed nor implicitly agreed to any licensing regarding the software itself.

The only area where I could see the analogy working is if an OP used this for a game on route, then he is deriving income. But it is still on a machine that he owns, including the ROM images.

Even if someone wanted to walk a fine line with this, good luck with enforcement. And for all of those computer geeks here that want to scream about morals and theft - I hope none of you have ever used any photocopied documentation on your machines. That is very clearly theft of intellectual property. I hope you haven't asked or used in any form online documentation or manuals, theft again. It doesn't matter that they are out of print and not available, at least under the logic that the most ardent folks here are touting.

Funny thing is, I don't see posts decrying this. I don't see people pointing out sellers on eBay of reprinted manuals. Those seem to sell just fine. If you are going to cite morality and ethics, make sure yours are squeaky clean. I find it very unlikely that anyone posting in this thread has a perfect moral and ethical compass. It doesn't make it right or wrong, it makes it real life.

Nucore is incredible I hope all things can get worked out and we get Nucore back on the market I have it in my RFM and it really makes the game. Others need to enjoy and see Nucore in action.

What you replied to was about the claim that something can't be theft if I the person never lost it.. your reply is nonsensical to that discussion.

Their game did not come with Nucore's software...
Their game did not come with Nucore's software cracked...

There is no argument of 'personal use' of something they already had - they didn't have it to start with. Pinbox stole Nucore's product and distributed it.

The argument of stealing is not about the Pin2k IP - but of Nucore's.

The only purpose of these lines were - to prove you have no idea what you are talking about. Online documentation? What a laugh.

Who is citing morality? We are talking about the LEGAL DEFINITIONS - not what you should or should not do on your own decisions.

Ignorant of the reference material AND a poor reader.

not sure if anyone saw this but its life in the nucore world. http://www.bigguyspinball.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1162

I get the lawsuit against Pinbox but why quit selling the product until that is done.

I don’t understand why they are not still selling the product?

I don’t claim to know anything about the law but I see many other company’s selling their products while they have lawsuits pending.

your wish has been granted

rocket.jpg

Like Don said we were literally a few weeks from re-releasing Nucore before Nucore was hacked and released as pinbox. I completely understand the questioning about this point as we haven't provided the reason why. We do have a very good reason and hopefully we'll be able to tell the whole story after this is all finished. Don and I really do appreciate the support from the community and just like you we want Nucore back on the market asap. Hopefully this will resolve quickly.

What was the cost of Nucore? Did that include everything needed (such as a PC) or did you have to add other items to get it working in the Pin2K machine?

I have RFM and a SWEPI kit with two computers today, would love to have just a Nucore in there to eliminate the need to swap the computers and also have the jukebox functionality.