You were probably just thinking about C&C Music Factory.

Is there any official position/plan from PPS to address the need for replacements for P2K computers/PRSM cards?

So just what is so special about the Nucore system compared to an original equipment RFM that's performing well. Does it change the game play that much,say the graphics or the audio? Or was it mostly geared towards parts availability/repair?

This, although take out the word license since you don't have one with a pinball machine. What people seem to not understand is that stealing Nucore IP is *NOT* fixing a machine by you reverse engineering it. Making your own Nucore like system from scratch is reverse engineering and would be absolutely permissible - but that isn't what happened, and the people whining about it don't want to put the work into it, they just want to take what someone else did.

If I had new code on my JP downstairs that I made and you wanted it, that wouldn't entitle you to come over and steal the ROMs out of the game even if you wanted it really badly. If you saw it and decided to reverse engineer the code to make it work like mine, you're totally in a legal area. It's the selling / distribution of it that becomes a problem.

And, for anyone saying that it should just be out there, you clearly have never developed a product that has been stolen. It's not nice to just have people take it "because."

The bottom line is that Nucore software is abandonware till they offer something up for sale.

If they are actively suing someone for copyright infringement, I would say that no, no it isn't.

I think you missed his sarcasm.

Either way, at this point there is no other option.

If your game is down, can't be repaired, and you want it working, all you have is Pinbox.

If Nucore ever decides it's worth the hassle of selling their product again, you will have 2 options.

Even the gospel Wiki says this about abandonware: "It can refer to a product that is no longer available for legal purchase"

I really wanted to do a meme of rocket from gotg asking at the end of the movie.." but what if I wanted it more than the other person does'

Contrary to popular propaganda, IP infringement is not at all theft. Theft is when I take something from you and you no longer have it. The meme that copyright infringement is theft is a slick marketing campaign promoted by the music and film industries. Stealing ROMS would be theft. Downloading ROMs could arguably be copyright infringement. It is not theft by any stretch.

BTW, I've got my copy of pinbox stashed away until the lucky day I can find someone with a pin2k paperweight that I can liberate from them.

I wonder if this lawsuit is going to pose problems for the development of pinball circus.

Why ?

Pinball Circus doesn't use nucore.

LTG : )™

The defendant seems also to be the pinball circus engineer - not sure if that really matters.

He would have to be an idiot to go to MI to get sued.

They are going to have to file in GA and start the process all over again $$$$$$.

Great material.

What's the pinball circus engineer's name?

In Louisiana the Nucor guys would have trouble with their lawsuit for failing to mitigate their damages. Obviously, I am not certain about the laws where the suit was filed or the implications of the federal laws on the case that was filed as I havent read it.

Follow the links given earlier -- It was even pointed out that it "named names". I just did a bit of googling after that.

You can have a whole debate over it, but if I have a product that I am trying to, regardless of whether it is hamburgers or code for a pinball machine, if I do not want to give it away for free and you decide to come and take it, I look at it the same. By definition, you're right - however, try actually making a product that you want to copyright and seeing how it *feels* when people take it from you - people who might otherwise pay for it which does take money (something "physical") from me.

The suit was filed in MI, but the last docket entry said it was being handed over to a GA court I believe. I still think you can get sued if you aren't in the same state?

IDK, I'm not a lawyer. I just pretend to be one on the internet.

Great, then you're free to go build your own Nucore knock-off. Get yourself a Linux distro, emacs, gcc and go to town bro. It's all downhill from here. When you're done, feel free to make it open source and give it away to whomever you want.

As an internet lawyer, I can tell you that it is very possible to be sued by someone in another state.

Edit: whether that out-of-state court has jurisdiction over you is an entirely different and sometimes complex matter.

That's funny cause if he needed that to get his rfm working he totally would and give it away free as open source. More than capable and the king of drm free stuff

Chessiv, I see you were on Pinside today. Do you have an update? If your attorneys are instructing you not to make public remarks I understand but if you have an update on a timetable on when the product may be available again that would help a lot of people make what is apparently a difficult decision. Thanks in advance for any response.

Nucore running on a raspberry pi.

Why should I spend my time doing all that when I can just google pinbox, download it, and install it? Geez.

The thing is, in this case, pinbox does not equate to nucore lost sales. People with broken machines are not willing to wait an undetermined time to fix it. That means they're not nucore customers. In fact, if I can't fix my machine within a couple weeks, I figure something else out. No one is going to store a broken machine for years. That's just ridiculous.

The whole argument that a pirated work equates to a lost sale is stupid. In my past I have downloaded several things that I would never have purchased otherwise.

If Pinbox did not exist, please explain how you could fix your machine in a couple weeks. Your logic shouldn't be that since a solution exists, even if it blatantly rips off people who had developed it, you should be open to using it because you want to fix your machine isn't really fair.

I think I'd feel different if Williams developed the solution to fix their own machines with and then pulled it as a solution, but seriously - you're talking about a couple of guys that spent a ton of time and effort developing a solution that worked, the sales of it weren't what they had hoped so they stopped producing it for a time. This does not suddenly entitle you to decide their work isn't moving fast enough so you should just take it.

Finally, you saying that it doesn't equate to a sale is just silly. If the machine is broken, and that is the fix, you would have paid for it. It's a lost sale.

I would absolutely never wait on nucore in the current state with a brick taking up space in my house or shop. I would either have gotten the original board fixed, found someone to sell a used nucore, bought one of these overpriced working computers, or have gutted the machine and made a video pin out of it and a pinball 2000 "kit" for an owner of the other machine. In any case, something would have been done and quickly. Nucore wouldn't see a dime in a year or whenever they get their act together. The only way it's going to cost them money is if their product is currently for sale. Anyone using pinbox today isn't costing nucore anything as none of those people are going to store bricked machines in hopes that nucore becomes available.

Right, but all of those other things are options that you can still do. None of those entitle someone to go just take NuCore because they aren't using it. Honestly, I *so* wish that I had gotten NuCore before just for the performance upgrade even though I have a fully functional P2K computer. If my P2K machine breaks tomorrow, I do agree with you that NuCore isn't going to get a dime of my money when I fix it, but it means I'll be doing one of the solutions you noted above. I hope that NuCore comes back so that I can obtain it legally and have it as a back up.

The features of NuCore were / are amazing and well worth the money. I think that the sad flaw that NuCore had (and this isn't just them, it tends to be true of the entire hobby) is that by making the product with no threat of it going away or selling out, they gave everyone like me an excuse to wait a little bit to pick it up. Oh, why would I grab NuCore today when it'll be there in a month, but these VND plastics won't be? When they announced it was over, Pinball Life sold out of the remaining stock in minutes. I tried buying too.

I really hope that it comes back. I desperately wanted the Jukebox mode, and I love the even easier playfield swap that it can do, but I won't resort to stealing it if my machine dies and I can't fix it.

Right. So let's take the logic further. We both agree that if our machines break today, nucore isn't getting a dime - be it now or later - to fix that machine as we are not waiting and need to fix it now. In that case, I would argue that using pinbox is *not* theft. Theft requires the owner of an item to have a loss - the stolen item. In case of ip theft, the case can be made that the loss is a sale. In this case where we agree that there is no sale and never will be, you may as well use pinbox as it harms no one. The people at nucore are unimpacted either way whether you fix the board, buy a new board, or use pinbox in this case.

Don and our attorney have prepared a statement and Don will post it hopefully sometime today.

Again with this word stealing. Stealing is when you take something from the owner and they no longer have it. No one is out of a Nucore system if someone downloads Pinbox, especially when it's impossible to buy it from the creator. This is IP infringement at most.

I also think you are ignoring the fact that there are people here with fistfuls of cash, BEGGING Nucore to take it EVEN WHEN there is a free option. I think everyone here wants the Nucore guys to get paid for their work, but it's literally impossible to do that right now. By this logic, you should start cracking at all of the people here who use MAME roms. To expect people to sit on a $3k paperweight because some people want to play lawyer/ licensing games is just unrealistic.

I'm not saying that Pinbox isn't illegal, but so is going 5 MPH over the speed limit. Law != ethics, and I don't think anyone can be blamed for using whatever is available to get their game to work.

Nucore should have never pulled their product from the marketplace, WMS be damned.

Good, ANY news good or bad is better than NO news..

Hi, Don from Big Guys Pinball here. I'd like to thank the person that posted the link to our lawsuit, it will prevent the defendant from forcing us to keep it a secret. We added a statement to our website and we will continue to add updates when allowed.

http://www.bigguyspinball.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1162

The lawsuit will be decided in Federal court, not here on Pinside. Things took longer than expected, but time is running out for our friend. Thank you to all our supporters.

No self respecting developer uses EMACS. VI

Pasted for those that want to read here

"We are not out of business. We’ve been busy servicing all of our paying Nucore clients. In July of 2013, legal documents were drawn up to allow us to continue to produce Nucore. Rick was on board as well. Two weeks later, the person in the lawsuit (master geek) released Pinbox and ruined it for everyone. It is our intention to bring this person to justice and to release a future version of Nucore with new features. Federal lawsuits take time and we need to clean up the mess before doing anything else. We spent thousands of hours on this product. We have hundreds of paying customers who paid their hard earned money. We paid Wayne, Gene and Rick a licensing fee for the right to do this. This person stole our copyrighted software and the copyrighted ROMs. We cannot discuss the details of the case but will provide periodic updates here on our site. In the meantime please respect our IP and be patient: NUCORE WILL RETURN."

So this is how the genie gets put back into the bottle: Win a great big expensive lawsuit in federal court and get a six figure judgement against some kid in his mommy's basement who has no assets and can walk away from all his problems with a $1500 payment to a bancruptcy lawyer.

Unless mastergeek has a large asset base and no way to shield it, this has been a terrible example of crisis management. IP rights < good product/price/service.

Look at all the sales that are lost while all the legal wrangling drains their capital and revenue.

One equation: Nucore = fail.

4 and a half years later.... they say on 12/1/14, "Please be patient". That boat done sailed.

Seems to me the nucore team ruined it for everyone with the decision to hold sales till a court case is resolved. Put the product back on shelves already!
If cell phone makers did this we'd still be waiting for the first iPhone or samsung galaxy

At least the attorneys will make money.

I will speculate wildly that the licensors told nucore to solve the problem before selling more or they were going to sue them for negligently protecting their IP.

These guys are all amateurs. The obvious play was to start selling the hardware package outside of any agreements and make it be a direct hard drive transplant (or pinbox install). All this IP nonsense did is make a bunch of money for lawyers.

good point.. any way you cut it; so far it's Lawyers Pinheads:0

I speculate that the Warner Bros told Metallica to solve the Napster problem before selling any more records.

Nice try, but very poor analogy. It would be more like WB telling apple to stop selling more songs until the problem was solved if the DRM was broken.

How was the defendant forcing you to keep it a secret?

They can't. The docket information I posted is public record. Most lawyers will council is to not to talk about the lawsuit publicly for a number of reasons.

I hope for those that wants it or need it, nucore returns to the market.

Way back there was talk about doing Wizard Blocks or other games for that system, that would be nice if it became a reality too.

LTG : )™

It was a joke.

Oh, as an internet lawyer I know all that already. I wanted to hear from dweingarden how the defendant was stifling the conversation.