Franklin, TN
What are the financial figures at stake here? Roughly 10,000 machines produced.
How many potential sales are really out there?
(Topic ID: 59390)
This topic is closed.
Quoted from Fatsquatch:I'm not trying to kick anyone while they're down or anything, but was Nucore REALLY about to be re-released when this happened?
I mean, the product just abruptly disappeared with no clear reason as to why, and all the community was told was that the creators hoped to make it available again someday in the future.
We don't hear anything else about Nucore till Pinbox happens, and now we're told that it was just fixing to be secretly re-released...only now we're shit-out-of-luck 'cause hackers must be persecuted first.
I may be missing some information and may just be entirely wrong altogether, but I suspect that Nucore was essentially dead, and more or less, was intended to stay dead.
There was a long thread where I updated that status a number of times a few months before the whole pinbox issue. Last update stated we were in the final steps. Even when we stopped producing it for a period of time I said it was only temporary.
Quoted from chessiv:There was a long thread where I updated that status a number of times a few months before the whole pinbox issue. Last update stated we were in the final steps. Even when we stopped producing it for a period of time I said it was only temporary.
Then fire the lines back up and get Nucore back out there. If you can prosecute the Pinbox folk at the same time, then by all means, have at it. But I sure as hell wouldn't put Nucore on hold for it in any way.
You've got a damn fine product there that many people will happily give you money for. Let's do this.
Sana'a
Quoted from chessiv:It's sad that copying/stealing has become an accepted practice.
Sadly it has been accepted practice for 40 years.
Anyone old enough to remember the Commodore Pet/C64 sneaker net parties where everyone would get together and "trade" floppy discs?
Or latter when the BBS craze came about and people would dial up at 300 baud (with a Hayes modem yet) with "level 10 access" would download all night?
Or who had a phone phreaking box for making long distance calls from a payphone?
Or a handmade "descrambler" box for OnTV (about 5 years before CableTV)?
Or a DSS card that got reprogrammed?
Quoted from Fatsquatch:Then fire the lines back up and get Nucore back out there. If you can prosecute the Pinbox folk at the same time, then by all means, have at it. But I sure as hell wouldn't put Nucore on hold for it in any way.
You've got a damn fine product there that many people will happily give you money for. Let's do this.
That's our intent. Unfortunately, whether anyone likes it or not, this did throw a monkey wrench in that effort which can't be avoided. We HAVE to resolve this situation before proceeding. We hope to take care of this quickly. Hence me asking for any additional info anyone might share.
Kitchener, ON
Quoted from chessiv:Theft is theft. I'm sure many people try to justify it to make themselves feel better while they do it. Doesn't change facts. I did learn more than I expected in this thread =)
Yes. We all know what theft is, and the way a normal consumer justify's it, is by first searching avenue to buy a new one, then a used one, then a bootleg one.
Think of a rare cd from he 90's, if you can't get it at the local record shop, and you can't order it from amazon, and iTunes doesn't have a digital product. Then if there's no way to properly support the producer then you look for a torrent, or burn a copy of your friends cd.
The one problem with your thought process is that you offer no product. You give your customer no way support you, even if they want to, you complain about a black market that you created and have power to minimize.
Quoted from PW79:I'd love to own both P2K games so make/sell your product bro!
I have minty set with Nucore and no hacks...hmmm
trade ya for Family Guy
Quoted from chessiv:That's our intent. Unfortunately, whether anyone likes it or not, this did throw a monkey wrench in that effort which can't be avoided. We HAVE to resolve this situation before proceeding. We hope to take care of this quickly. Hence me asking for any additional info anyone might share.
Can you explain why this has to be resolved before proceeding with making Nucore available again?
Quoted from chessiv:That's our intent. Unfortunately, whether anyone likes it or not, this did throw a monkey wrench in that effort which can't be avoided. We HAVE to resolve this situation before proceeding. We hope to take care of this quickly. Hence me asking for any additional info anyone might share.
Why does this have to be solved first? It really does seem that if Nucore had stayed on the market, available, this either wouldn't have happened or would/may have been marginally workable. Here's part of the reason why: Imagine this ad -
FS: RFM - CPU not working so old laptop with Pinbox working.
hmmm.
Now imagine this ad:
FS: RFM - Original CPU replaced with shiny new Nucore system, play without fear.
As you've heard above litigation will cost. Selling product will make money. Revenue or cost?
Quoted from chessiv:Theft is theft. I'm sure many people try to justify it to make themselves feel better while they do it. Doesn't change facts. I did learn more than I expected in this thread =)
Not all thefts are treated equally. Not in the eyes of people or in the eyes of the law. Try stealing a car in Louisiana and a very possible outcome is you will (lawfully) be shot and killed on the spot. There is no legal justification for shooting a software thief in the books, but come to Louisiana and steal a car and we have a law on point that describes what you can do the S.O.B. to protect your property and person.
OP, as everyone else in this thread has said, get your product back out on the market; that is clearly your best path forward. I would suspect the most you'll get out of a family member attorney is for them to send a C&D letter (almost worthless) and getting the authorities involved is unlikely to yield any criminal results (I've frankly never met a law enforcement officer that cared about intellectual property other than the feds...and then it is only for large cable companies and what not).
Quoted from chessiv:That's our intent. Unfortunately, whether anyone likes it or not, this did throw a monkey wrench in that effort which can't be avoided. We HAVE to resolve this situation before proceeding. We hope to take care of this quickly. Hence me asking for any additional info anyone might share.
I hate to use the "genie's done out of the bottle" quote, but that's entirely true. Its been torrented, and you're never gonna get it removed from all of the world's computers that have it on their HDD.
You can catch the hacker and even have him executed, but it's not going to make a single copy of the Nucore hack disappear. By withholding your product, all your doing is guaranteeing lost sales and pushing desperate Pin2K owners to the alternative.
If you can really only do one thing (produce Nucore or go after a hacker), I can't see why you wouldn't do the former.
Best of luck to you.
As king of all lawyers, I advise you to do this:
If you are an ace coder, write some code that will spread a "white virus" through the Pinside and RGP email list that will seek out any copies or iso of the Pinbox software and slightly modify it. Allow the Pinbox software to install, but make it have some random instability.
You can also have the virus phone home and report the IP address of each person in the world currently possessing a copy of Pinbox.
This is not a difficult task for a good coder, but it will give you a project to occupy your time until you start working on Nucore again.
Quoted from PopBumperPete:My memory is getting a bit fuzzy in old age
but aren't the Nucore guys also the team that developed PinMame?
a program useless with out using other peoples copyrighted ROMs
No, pinmame has been around for the past 10+ years and is open source, which many people work on and contribute over time. Freeware that is updated and shared by all.
Uk
Quoted from vid1900:Or a handmade "descrambler" box for OnTV (about 5 years before CableTV)?
I forgot all about OnTV.
Our middle school electronics teacher actually helped a dozen of us etch the circuit board for the descrambler box.
The schematic and circuit board art was a Xerox of a Xerox of a Xerox copy.
Funny, nobody said "This is stealing" back then. The teacher just said, "Hmmm, this looks like a good project to learn about PPLs (or something like that)".
Quoted from CaptainNeo:No, pinmame has been around for the past 10+ years and is open source, which many people work on and contribute over time. Freeware that is updated and shared by all.
I think Steve Ellenoff (from pinmame) worked with them at one point but it was unrelated to pinmame. But I could be wrong - maybe that's what he was thinking about?
Quoted from chessiv:That's our intent. Unfortunately, whether anyone likes it or not, this did throw a monkey wrench in that effort which can't be avoided. We HAVE to resolve this situation before proceeding. We hope to take care of this quickly. Hence me asking for any additional info anyone might share.
We're not that dim. WHY do you HAVE to resolve this BEFORE selling Nucore?
Quoted from chessiv:Theft is theft. I'm sure many people try to justify it to make themselves feel better while they do it. Doesn't change facts. I did learn more than I expected in this thread =)
Yes. Theft is theft. THIS case is copyright infringement. Not theft. Your insistence doesn't change that fact.
Think of it this way, if you must...if you can do only one of two things (which, as I'm reading seems to be the case) to either produce the f^(king Nucore or go after the hackers of said Nucore why don't YOU JUST PRODUCE THE NUCORE and then you'll be revenue-rich FROM SELLING THE NUCORES and can then go after the hackers. Your family attorneys will be compensated as they should be (no pro-bono work from them). Yeesh!
Doc
Post edited by absocountry2 : Profanity edited
Quoted from Collin:We're not that dim. WHY do you HAVE to resolve this BEFORE selling Nucore?
I think that's what has so many folks irritated. It just makes no sense to NOT sell a product people are chomping at the bit for.
Every movie, TV show, app, game, and album in the world can easily be downloaded from torrents, but once those things start getting pirated, the companies who produce them don't pull their product from the shelves.
This is weird. I don't know the op and I am not an expert on the Nucore product or licensing issues, but the way this reads so far to me - I don't think the op can produce the Nucore system for some reason.
It just doesn't add up any other way for me. Op - my apologies if I am wrong, but you seem to be avoiding the question at all costs.
Quoted from Fatsquatch:I think that's what has so many folks irritated. It just makes no sense to NOT sell a product people are chomping at the bit for.
Every movie, TV show, app, game, and album in the world can easily be downloaded from torrents, but once those things start getting pirated, the companies who produce them don't pull their product from the shelves.
Very true. It doesn't make sense from a business standpoint to try to take your ball and run home when everyone else has the ability to have a copy of your ball.
...oh, wait, now we're back to the analogies comparing something tangible with something intangible. hahaha
Quoted from chessiv:I will say it was not our intention to stop selling Nucore but given the current circumstances it was the only wise thing to do.
I say this statement was the domino that caused the entire thing.
End of story.
I have been following this thread closely, I have both a RFM and a SWE1 running on Prism cards
Am I nervous, Hell yeah every time I turn them on, I will protect my investment any way I can
Yeah I downloaded the torrent, If I need it I'll use it, If Nucore sits on their ass They will lose
my money, and also lots from others too. Either way I'll do what I have to to keep my Pins running as I am sure others will too Not that I want too but will be forced to.
Get on with it and get this thing out there. We all know what efforts went in to it and I believe most
pinsiders would support it, but time is of the essence now before you loose everybody
Just my 2 cents
Quoted from chessiv:It's sad that copying/stealing has become an accepted practice. Hey, I'm going to run down the street and steal my neighbors cars. Would you support that. Even if we weren't re-releasing Nucore that doesn't give anyone a right to steal it. Downloading a hacked copy of Nucore is theft. It is against the law. Wll anything happen to you if you do it, probably not. Does that make it right? No. Are you proud of yourself?
Thanks again to the people who have supported us through the years.
Either offer the product or stop crying about it.. The people want a product to fix there machines with. You did not supply it so someone else did. I don't understand why it was so hard to keep the nucore going? Maybe to peak demand so you could hack pricing maybe because you where to lazy? Maybe your just bad at business? Any way it's a torrent now. There is no way to stop it. Dry your tears and move on.
Quoted from RTR:This is weird. I don't know the op and I am not an expert on the Nucore product or licensing issues, but the way this reads so far to me - I don't think the op can produce the Nucore system for some reason.
It just doesn't add up any other way for me. Op - my apologies if I am wrong, but you seem to be avoiding the question at all costs.
It's either their own licensing problem or they are soliciting financing and don't want to disclose this particular risk. By any "outside" understanding of the situation, the way forward is to sell and service their way of this.
I'm going to throw some speculation out and guess that Lucas Arts went after whoever forwarded their rights to nucore. Now there is a bunch of BS with big companies featuring legal threats and royalty demands that no one can get to the bottom of.
Lucas Arts is known for being some of the most protective IP owners.
BTW and for the record, software piracy is nothing like stealing a tangible item. But those in media have told us all different.
Quoted from vid1900:Sadly it has been accepted practice for 40 years.
Anyone old enough to remember the Commodore Pet/C64 sneaker net parties where everyone would get together and "trade" floppy discs?
Or latter when the BBS craze came about and people would dial up at 300 baud (with a Hayes modem yet) with "level 10 access" would download all night?
Or who had a phone phreaking box for making long distance calls from a payphone?
Or a handmade "descrambler" box for OnTV (about 5 years before CableTV)?
Or a DSS card that got reprogrammed?
OH MAN! My Commodore 64 days were epic! I had a Commodore 1670 modem (1200 BAUD!) and boxes of floppies. Good times. In my defense (which there is little) I was 12. When I started working at a store that sold C64s, I stopped pirating. I saw, first-hand, how piracy hirt business. I even advised my manager "Don't stock that game. My friends had it a week ago."
Oh hey, what are we taking about?
Back on topic, I hope my RFM never tanks, but I would support NuCore if it was there for me.
Quoted from chessiv:There was a long thread where I updated that status a number of times a few months before the whole pinbox issue. Last update stated we were in the final steps. Even when we stopped producing it for a period of time I said it was only temporary.
can you link that? If there is a post where you actually share an straight-forward status, I missed it... and it might go a long way to answer some of the issues in this thread.
all I saw was very cryptic messaging like this:
Quoted from chessiv:If we shared the complete story of why Nucore isn't available now it would just create more drama.....it will come back, probably not soon but not gone forever.
And some other conflicting info like this:
Quoted from Ballypinball:Nucore took the option to cancel the original agreement with all the parties, I am sure if they wanted to continue and pay the license fee per unit, the rights owners would be more than happy to continue.
They gave 30 days notice which they could have given the public.
The 3 originals developers no longer work together and with 5 or more seperate people putting their hands in the cookie Jar
Then something about an update "very soon" - and that was 2 months ago...
And, frankly, unless you are in the JJP shipping department, "very soon" is not 2+ months... 
Quoted from MTPPC:I'm going to throw some speculation out and guess that Lucas Arts went after whoever forwarded their rights to nucore. Now there is a bunch of BS with big companies featuring legal threats and royalty demands that no one can get to the bottom of.
Well, in that case, then Nucore is never coming back.
Quoted from Evoga:Your biggest mistake was posting about it on here. Now more people know there is a free copy available to download via a torrent.
Yup I had no idea !! Lol
Thanks for the info...
How long did you plan on this not being hacked? We can all buy hacked software of any kind, most of us by the genuine stuff others don't. If your going to be in business, act like it and know that things like this happen. Why publicize it? Conduct your business and provide a better product and you'll have nothing to complain about it.
Quoted from Evoga:Your biggest mistake was posting about it on here. Now more people know there is a free copy available to download via a torrent.
Heh, that IS true. Hell, I didn't know a thing about the availability of hacked Nucore ISO till reading this very thread.
I somehow missed any Pinbox announcement threads that might have been posted around the 'Net.
Quoted from Iamdarras:Yup I had no idea !! Lol
Thanks for the info...
Wow, not defending nucore but no need to throw it in there face. After all they did all the work to make u have a repair option now. Regardless if its free or for sale
It sure looks like average joe p2k owner could care less about copyright infringement when he has a dead machine sitting in the game room. Pretty much a put up or shut up situation, or keep crying about script kiddies and spilt milk.
Quoted from I8UB4:Wow, not defending nucore but no need to throw it in there face. After all they did all the work to make u have a repair option now. Regardless if its free or for sale
Did h create this account just to defend them? It is what it is. Live and learn
Quoted from vid1900:Well, in that case, then Nucore is never coming back.
WEll... disney does own LA now.. so totally possible.
Quoted from epthegeek:Yes. Theft is theft. THIS case is copyright infringement. Not theft. Your insistence doesn't change that fact.
Since they just copied their emulated code, wouldn't a better term for it be piracy?
If I burnt copies of movies, that is what I would be in trouble for.
Not that it matters. Hate to say it, but once it is on the torrents it is out there. I just hate watching people get ripped off no matter how it is phrased.
Quoted from Kneissl:It sure looks like average joe p2k owner could care less about copyright infringement when he has a dead machine sitting in the game room. Pretty much a put up or shut up situation, or keep crying about script kiddies and spilt milk.
Pretty much keep the game going. Most would prefer keep the game legit or better upgraded legitimately. Hopefully nucore goes back for sale soon and this thread is pulled. It can only hurt nucore sales by existing!
Quoted from jimjim66:Since they just copied their emulated code, wouldn't a better term for it be piracy?
Piracy is copyright infringement. Unless you're talking about boats on the high seas, matey. Yarr.
I agree with others that creating this thread was a bad idea and now has exposed many people to the fact a hacked copy exists. Since it's on the torrents to download pretty much guarantees it will always be available one way or another. One thing I know is pinball people are some of the cheapest people I have ever met and will not think twice about downloading it. Look how people have thousands invested in machines and complain about shipping costs on pinball parts. The longer nucore is delayed the more people will look for alternatives.
Quoted from lowepg:can you link that? If there is a post where you actually share an straight-forward status, I missed it... and it might go a long way to answer some of the issues in this thread.
all I saw was very cryptic messaging like this:And some other conflicting info like this:
Then something about an update "very soon" - and that was 2 months ago...
And, frankly, unless you are in the JJP shipping department, "very soon" is not 2+ months...
http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/nucore
It goes off the rails a few times but that's par for the course here.
The story Wayne gave wasn't accurate to the real situation. The reason I didn't post why we stopped is the same reason I shouldn't have created this post. We work hard to create Nucore, we pulled it off the market for a very good reason. We were working to get it back to market with some minor improvements. Someone steals our software. I ask if anyone has any info to help us deal with this. Now we're the bad guys? Ok. We're not crying. Like I said earlier it was a mistake to ask here for help. I really should have known better.
I request the thread be locked because it's only serving to create more drama. I've certainly learned my lesson.
=)
One of the genius things about Steve Jobs was his realization that people wanted digital music, and the only ones offering it were the pirates. If he could create a legitimate and legal way for people to pay for digital music, there was money to be made.
Many of the record companies called him a fool and even continued to go after the pirates for years while Apple started making billions with iTunes.
Quoted from vid1900:Or a handmade "descrambler" box for OnTV (about 5 years before CableTV)?
blockquote>
We all had to learn how 555 timer IC's worked somehow......
And let's not forget about the slightly more sophisticated "It TV" system. That one had a better payoff in that they showed porn (I know, Rated "T" not "X"). I had an instructer in an engineering class at Wayne State U. that showed a class how to crack that beast.
And then there was the "line of sight" HF transmission of HBO from the Book Tower in downtown Detroit that was not scrambled. However, the down CONverter was tough to build. I've always said that broadcast microwave engineering is "black magic". I know the same system was in use in NYC and Chicago as well .
Quoted from chessiv:http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/nucore
It goes off the rails a few times but that's par for the course here.
The story Wayne gave wasn't accurate to the real situation. The reason I didn't post why we stopped is the same reason I shouldn't have created this post. We work hard to create Nucore, we pulled it off the market for a very good reason. We were working to get it back to market with some minor improvements. Someone steals our software. I ask if anyone has any info to help us deal with this. Now we're the bad guys? Ok. We're not crying. Like I said earlier it was a mistake to ask here for help. I really should have known better.
I request the thread be locked because it's only serving to create more drama. I've certainly learned my lesson.
=)
Little secrets and hints are the last things you need on a public forum. This is just the same way the bumper thread goes. Look at that link you offered... there's absolutely nothing in it but a veiled promise. Whatever the problems for the nucore, users must assume nucore is history. At least the torrent is out there for those who need it.
We're all on your side here, but you obviously aren't on our's. Keep your secrets to yourself and swirl down that rabbit hole pursuing the script kiddie that violated your IP. In the meantime, pin2k owners can rest assured that there is a hack out there to keep their machines up while lawyers are writing $500 letters to eachother.
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