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(Topic ID: 59390)

Nucore Theft


By chessiv

7 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 157 posts
  • 64 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 years ago by TigerLaw
  • Topic is favorited by 5 Pinsiders

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    There are 157 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 4.
    #1 7 years ago

    The person(s) who created pinbox accidently left info leading to their IP address. They are located in the Atlanta Georgia region and use Comcast for internet access. We’re handing this info to our attorney who will get us the person using that IP. The person(s) who created pinbox have stolen our hard work. Any additional information/help any of you could provide would be greatly appreciated. Send any such information to info (at) bigguyspinball.com. We will keep any information and it's source confidential. We still plan to support real Nucore users as we've always done.

    Thanks to everyone for their support.

    Chuck and Don.

    #2 7 years ago

    Hey Chuck and Don,

    Could you guys please make Nucore available again? While I personally don't have a Pinball 2000 game at this point, I hope to in the future, and will ultimately probably have to rely on Nucore eventually, one way or another.

    Thanks,

    Collin

    #3 7 years ago

    Is it theft if there not selling it?

    #4 7 years ago

    From a legal standpoint: yes, it probably still constitutes theft of intellectual property.

    However, Internet Justice dictates that few will really feel bad for the Nucore team unless they make it available again.

    #5 7 years ago

    Sadly, as I told everyone who emailed me, we just finished the agreements to be able to sell Nucore again. I was porting to the newer Ubuntu and adding a new feature, when this criminal hacked Nucore. Now we will have to spend time punishing the people involved so that it doesn't happen again. After that, we can begin producing them again.

    #6 7 years ago

    Well that is good news if that is a definite yes. Sorry bout the theft, hope you catch em.

    #7 7 years ago

    And the beat goes on.

    45
    #8 7 years ago
    Quoted from dweingarden:

    I was porting to the newer Ubuntu and adding a new feature, when this criminal hacked Nucore. Now we will have to spend time punishing the people involved so that it doesn't happen again.

    Please, don't insult our intelligence.

    1) There is nothing you can do, ever, to make sure this doesn't happen again. That's software and that's life. You know it, and we know it.

    2) You're really going to tell your customer base that rather than work on something for them, you're going to drop it to chase around someone who cracked your code?

    It's happened, it's out there, you'll never put that genie back in the box. Anyone who wants it will get it, it's that simple. However, lots and lots of people in this hobby, I'd like to think even the vast majority, would rather support you and your endeavors than download a crack if you simply make it easy for them to do so.

    You'd be far better served to just be transparent about your progress and what you plan to provide people than pursuing a vendetta. It's bad business.

    My two cents.

    #9 7 years ago

    I know that as all McDonald's "restaurants" in the US and Canada have free, unsecured WiFi, what's to stop a hack from using a pawn shop special PC and uploading the file from the fallen arches? Then what? Who you gonna call? Ghostbusters?

    #10 7 years ago

    Love the response aurich! Spot on. $100 says the guy complaining didn't write the code either. He just has the money.

    #11 7 years ago

    I strongly agree with Aurich; if you're going to file suit, go ahead and do it, but don't tell us to wait for you to finish that before you can be bothered to continue work on Nucore. You're looking at a legal battle that's not going to be over in weeks, maybe not in months. You want us to continue waiting for your product while you spend time on litigation? Really? How many people do you think will turn to Pinbox because you can't be arsed to get Nucore back on the market before you've taken someone to court?

    #12 7 years ago

    You should have kept selling Nucore despite the threats. You could have had a strong fair use defense.

    #13 7 years ago
    Quoted from dweingarden:

    Sadly, as I told everyone who emailed me, we just finished the agreements to be able to sell Nucore again. I was porting to the newer Ubuntu and adding a new feature, when this criminal hacked Nucore. Now we will have to spend time punishing the people involved so that it doesn't happen again. After that, we can begin producing them again.

    Unfortunate! I agree you and the community might be better served by actually putting your product on the market and selling to paying customers, than chasing down others at this point.

    I am not sure what you really expect to gain by delaying selling this if you are really close to being able to sell it again.

    I am not trying to sound as if you "owe" the community this product. Just speaking from a customer's perspective. If I needed this product today and read this... I would not exactly be stoked and totally supportive of you delaying me getting it by months or years to pursue this PRIOR to selling me the damn thing

    #14 7 years ago

    If you sell it soon, I'll buy it.

    If you don't sell it soon, I'll use Pinbox. Keeping my game running is what my ultimate motivation is.

    When Nucore is available again, I'll buy it for sure. I suggest you don't delay due to this hack and just progress as if it had never happened.

    For whatever it is worth.

    #15 7 years ago

    I of course feel sorry that somebody released your code to the internet.

    But they only did it because it was no longer available for sale.

    I liken it to Chinese Democracy by Guns Roses. The record company complained that sales were a disappointment, but 15 years late, all the fans who "had to have it" already had it, since word on the street was that the album was never coming out.

    #16 7 years ago

    I must have missed this pinbox thing. I have been waiting for Nucore forever, since Terry sold out and Nucore stop making them.

    #17 7 years ago
    Quoted from cichlid:

    But they only did it because it was no longer available for sale.

    That's true.

    For 6 years, anyone who copied and hacked it, never gave it away. Thus insuring you would make money and keep supporting it.

    The moment it was unavailable, market forces took over.

    (although still not cool to take other's code).

    Quoted from cichlid:

    I liken it to Chinese Democracy by Guns Roses. The record company complained that sales were a disappointment, but 15 years late, all the fans who "had to have it" already had it, since word on the street was that the album was never coming out.

    That's so true!

    Did any GnR fan NOT have that album already when it was finally officially released????

    #18 7 years ago

    I saw I link on rec.games.pinball that shows its still out for download in some torrent thing.. Shame this went down the way it did. Best of luck to all involved

    #19 7 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Did any GnR fan NOT have that album already before it was finally officially released????

    I didn't even like 'em too much, and I had it.

    #20 7 years ago
    Quoted from chessiv:

    The person(s) who created pinbox accidently left info leading to their IP address. They are located in the Atlanta Georgia region and use Comcast for internet access. We’re handing this info to our attorney who will get us the person using that IP. The person(s) who created pinbox have stolen our hard work. Any additional information/help any of you could provide would be greatly appreciated. Send any such information to info (at) bigguyspinball.com. We will keep any information and it's source confidential. We still plan to support real Nucore users as we've always done.
    Thanks to everyone for their support.
    Chuck and Don.

    So let me get this right... You've got an IP address... So you're going to issue what, exactly? A DMCA notice to the ISP? It doesn't exactly work like that the last I checked. If you can prove that copyrighted content is being distributed from that IP address directly, they MIGHT fork over the contact information for the person on the account. However, with many three strikes policies being implemented around DMCA, they might not do that.

    As someone who deals with these issues for a living, this can be a difficult subject to just walk up and say "Hey, I need the contact belonging to THIS IP address." and handing them something as simple as an HTTP access log.

    I'm sorry your intellectual property was leaked.

    #21 7 years ago

    PINSIDE ERROR: PAGE FAULT DRAMA OVERFLOW

    #22 7 years ago
    Quoted from dtatesr:

    So let me get this right... You've got an IP address... So you're going to issue what, exactly? A DMCA notice to the ISP? It doesn't exactly work like that the last I checked. If you can prove that copyrighted content is being distributed from that IP address directly, they MIGHT fork over the contact information for the person on the account. However, with many three strikes policies being implemented around DMCA, they might not do that.
    As someone who deals with these issues for a living, this can be a difficult subject to just walk up and say "Hey, I need the contact belonging to THIS IP address." and handing them something as simple as an HTTP access log.
    I'm sorry your intellectual property was leaked.

    We've contacted Comcast and are following their procedure to release the information. You're right, it's not as simple as asking them for it. Like I said before, our attorney is handling it.

    #23 7 years ago

    This is frustrating for us. As everyone knows I announced we would be bringing Nucore back to market. That effort was nearly complete when this happened. Since a number of people were aware of pinbox before it went public I was simply asking for any information anyone might want to give. We're not pursuing this for money but for the same reason any of you would want to pursue someone who stole something valuable of yours. Hopefully handling this issue won't distract us much longer from continuing Nucore work.

    Thanks for the support emails and Nucore will continue after this.

    #24 7 years ago
    Quoted from chessiv:

    As everyone knows I announced we would be bringing Nucore back to market.

    That is good news, because the last we all heard about it (last year), it sounded like the show was over:

    Quoted from chessiv:

    I will say it was not our intention to stop selling Nucore but given the current circumstances it was the only wise thing to do.

    #25 7 years ago

    My memory is getting a bit fuzzy in old age

    but aren't the Nucore guys also the team that developed PinMame?
    a program useless with out using other peoples copyrighted ROMs

    #26 7 years ago
    Quoted from PopBumperPete:

    My memory is getting a bit fuzzy in old age
    but aren't the Nucore guys also the team that developed PinMame?
    a program useless with out using other peoples copyrighted ROMs

    Oh snap! You got burned.

    #27 7 years ago

    You got to remember Pete, it's only inconvenient if its costing you money.

    #28 7 years ago
    Quoted from chessiv:

    The person(s) who created pinbox accidently left info leading to their IP address.

    All this means is that the *server* is located in that region.

    If he's a smart thief, he's probably going through a proxy. Good luck on that!

    I tracked one all the way to India about three months ago before we hit a brick wall.

    Keep us posted!

    #29 7 years ago

    Every time these topics come up, it makes me do a short mental re-evaluation of how I do my own business. I mean, why bother going through the effort to develop stuff, or work with developers to bring stuff to market... if somebody else is just going to rip off the design at some point in the future? Competition is one thing, but stealing and reproducing the unique IP can really cut a company off a the knee's when they put a lot of financial risk into developing it.

    I'm already leaning heavily toward using 4 layer boards and non-readable CPLD's and microcontrollers on future designs to prevent rip-off's. And we've all seen how it can hurt down the line when things can't be re-produced or back engineered even if you have the rights to do it, such as Capcom boards and ASIC chips. It's a very tough decision to make, but it's always something in the back of my head as I'm working on more complex designs and critical reproductions.

    -Hans

    #30 7 years ago
    Quoted from PopBumperPete:

    My memory is getting a bit fuzzy in old age
    but aren't the Nucore guys also the team that developed PinMame?
    a program useless with out using other peoples copyrighted ROMs

    One of the developers that worked on PinMAME also worked on NuCore. Difference is, PinMAME wasn't for sale and NuCore used licensed ROMs to make it work. And truthfully, Chuck was VERY up front with what they were doing before they released it. Simply listen to the 2008 Pinball Expo Nucore Fireside Chat to confirm that. (http://www.pinballnews.com/shows/expo2008/nucore.mp3) - Props to Pinball News for keeping this available.

    #31 7 years ago

    Nucore uses copyrighted ROMs for which we paid royalties to Rick and Gene. We did everything legally with Wms blessing. I invite you to check with Rick or Gene.

    #32 7 years ago

    So Nucore is "OK" because the original (B/W P2K) was no longer available

    So when Nucore was no longer available....

    I can see how some folks felt this was tit for tat...

    The Pinmame connection also makes it a bit more ironic...

    At any rate, hate to see anyone's IP misused....

    #33 7 years ago
    Quoted from lowepg:

    At any rate, hate to see anyone's IP misused....

    I agree. One thing to learn is that something good can always be gained from this. Learn from the flaws in your security, see what good was done, etc.

    Also, as far as I could read, pinbox never released ROM files with their software, did they? Not sure how that's relevant in any case. Also, was a SLA (Software License Agreement) posted with Nucore for the download of the original software?

    I am not trying to pry here, I am just trying to figure this out for the sake of my own curiosity.

    #34 7 years ago

    your post makes no sense. First of all we don't use pinmame, our friend at pinbox already told everyone what we use. We posted that we were taking a break. I needed to take care of some medical issues. Hacking Nucore did not help the situation. It didn't help Steve Ellenoff, it didn't help Gene or Rick, it didn't help the 30 people who were waiting patiently for systems, and it won't make me want to add new features so the software can be given away. If downloading pinbox makes you feel good then go ahead.

    #35 7 years ago
    Quoted from lowepg:

    So Nucore is "OK" because the original (B/W P2K) was no longer available

    Nucore was "OK"ed because they went through the proper licensing holders to use the ROMs associated with P2k. If the holders (Rick/Gene/Williams) would have said no, then they would not have done Nucore, it would be NOcore.

    Pinbox did not get permission from anybody and just copied Nucore's code. Huge difference. Legal versus Illegal.

    #36 7 years ago
    Quoted from jimjim66:

    Nucore was "OK"ed because they went through the proper licensing holders to use the ROMs associated with P2k. If the holders (Rick/Gene/Williams) would have said no, then they would not have done Nucore, it would be NOcore.
    Pinbox did not get permission from anybody and just copied Nucore's code. Huge difference. Legal versus Illegal.

    If it had been 'ok'ed, why did it get 'un-ok'ed later on?

    Doesn't seem like enough 'ok's got 'ok'ed to me.....

    #37 7 years ago

    thank you. You are the first poster who understands.
    If I leave my lawn mower outside and go in to eat lunch, the other posters would steal my lawn mower because I'm not using it right now. As long as they don't sell my lawn mower they haven't done anything wrong.

    #38 7 years ago

    And, regarding Pinmame, Why is it that only Pin2k had to get an 'OK'?

    I have 600 games on my virtual pinball system, and none of them had any kind of offical 'ok' given to them....

    #39 7 years ago
    Quoted from jimjim66:

    Nucore was "OK"ed because they went through the proper licensing holders to use the ROMs associated with P2k. If the holders (Rick/Gene/Williams) would have said no, then they would not have done Nucore, it would be NOcore.
    Pinbox did not get permission from anybody and just copied Nucore's code. Huge difference. Legal versus Illegal.

    An additional point, both Gene and Wayne (at the time) held patents that covered the technology (projecting an image on pinball glass.) So the licensing wasn't just for the ROMs. If we didn't pay licensing fees Nucore wouldn't have happened. Don and I weren't comfortable releasing Nucore and possibly violating patents. We wanted to make sure Nucore was completely legal.

    #40 7 years ago
    Quoted from tamoore:

    And, regarding Pinmame, Why is it that only Pin2k had to get an 'OK'?
    I have 600 games on my virtual pinball system, and none of them had any kind of offical 'ok' given to them....

    Patents - see the post above.

    -1
    #41 7 years ago
    Quoted from Magic_Mike:

    All this means is that the *server* is located in that region.
    If he's a smart thief, he's probably going through a proxy. Good luck on that!
    I tracked one all the way to India about three months ago before we hit a brick wall.
    Keep us posted!

    The user did use proxies and agents to mask ips and whois records. They made a costly mistake that led us right to them. I've done web work for years and was expecting they covered their tracks well. I was surprised to find that they didn't cover them well enough. Pretty interesting bit of internet sleuthing. Hopefully I'll be able to share how we did it someday in the future.

    #42 7 years ago
    Quoted from tamoore:

    And, regarding Pinmame, Why is it that only Pin2k had to get an 'OK'?
    I have 600 games on my virtual pinball system, and none of them had any kind of offical 'ok' given to them....

    Always wondered that myself. It always seems like a blind eye has been turned to the entire mame concept, and also the various X-in-1 boards that are out there.

    #43 7 years ago
    Quoted from dweingarden:

    and it won't make me want to add new features so the software can be given away.

    Just my opinion, but the only way you can minimize the effect of hacked software in the wild IS to add new features that the hacked version doesn't have. That is incentive for new customers to want to buy it versus downloading the illegal version.

    Personally I would want the latest and greatest for my machine, not a hacked copy that might have god knows what all kinds of mal-ware put in.

    Keep up the fight guys.

    Tony

    -1
    #44 7 years ago

    I'm glad my boss at the operator I worked at for many years NEVER bought any Pinball 2000 machines. Computers and pinball just don't work. Nothing but trouble.

    #45 7 years ago
    Quoted from KenLayton:

    I'm glad my boss at the operator I worked at for many years NEVER bought any Pinball 2000 machines. Computers and pinball just don't work. Nothing but trouble.

    Most pinball machines after 1979 contained computers, man....

    #46 7 years ago
    Quoted from chessiv:

    The user did use proxies and agents to mask ips and whois records. They made a costly mistake that led us right to them. I've done web work for years and was expecting they covered their tracks well. I was surprised to find that they didn't cover them well enough. Pretty interesting bit of internet sleuthing. Hopefully I'll be able to share how we did it someday in the future.

    Looks like he accidentally posted his IP through a normal unmasked account as proxies are a hit and miss. Good job!

    #47 7 years ago

    I for one would love nucore back. I bought both pin 2k systems after you stopped selling. I grabbed a copy of pinbox while I could just in case. I would prefer buy a nucore and put one of my original pcs to the side as backup. I put new supplies and proc fans in them. If you have nucore available before my pc's break, I buy a nucore. If not I will rig a pc to run pinbox. Basically it is a ticking time bomb for me. I would love to support you, but you have to have a product. I did video amps and can wait until failure, but...... if I am forced to rig something I am not sure that I would trash it for a nucore. I really hope you put your product out as I hate the idea of having to steal your stuff, but if you refuse to sell it. . ....
    IE. A man is hungry and all there is to eat is bread. He asks to buy the bread and is told no, you cannot buy it. He waits and asks again and again. He is told later. Eventually he (the machine) will die or he will steal the bread.
    Delaying the release is basically cutting your nose off to spite your face imo.
    I really hope you get your product out

    #48 7 years ago
    Quoted from tamoore:

    And, regarding Pinmame, Why is it that only Pin2k had to get an 'OK'?
    I have 600 games on my virtual pinball system, and none of them had any kind of offical 'ok' given to them....

    Dude, do you live on another planet? Just because you use PinMame and have the ROMs does NOT make it legal. You're not legally allowed to possess or use any ROM for any game you don't already own...

    #49 7 years ago
    Quoted from Jazman:

    Dude, do you live on another planet? Just because you use PinMame and have the ROMs does NOT make it legal. You're not legally allowed to possess or use any ROM for any game you don't already own...

    Didn't you see his 600 pin collection? One hell of a game room!

    #50 7 years ago
    Quoted from Jazman:

    Dude, do you live on another planet? Just because you use PinMame and have the ROMs does NOT make it legal. You're not legally allowed to possess or use any ROM for any game you don't already own...

    Really? No WAY!!!!

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