(Topic ID: 152628)

Nucore is Returning! 2016

By Pinballarie

8 years ago


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There are 171 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 4.
#101 8 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

You make it sound like pinbox 'saved us' from nucore... when that's not really fair. Nucore was on the market and would have been had it not been for having to deal with the legalities of WMS/PPS.

Nucore and PPS could not play nice with each other, they HAD a deal and that then fell apart, due to greed and a lack of respect between them relative to being business partners. Had they both been focused on how to maximize profits together vs being out for themselves (and not being open and honest), the relationship would not have deteriorated as it did. Once that relationship fell apart, there was no indication it would be remedied and certainly seemed that Nucore was dead. Not saying pinbox 'saved us from nucore', just that they filled a need that was created when nucore stop making units. If nucore had continued to make and sell units would pinbox have even come into existence? -- I doubt it.

Again, not saying what pinbox did was right or wrong, just stating how I think things evolved.

#102 8 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

That last line is the key... the reason nucore stopped was because of PPS. They had to retreat to deal with all of that. You make it sound like pinbox 'saved us' from nucore... when that's not really fair. Nucore was on the market and would have been had it not been for having to deal with the legalities of WMS/PPS.
What doesn't pass the sniff test to me is why the Pinbox incident would have further held back Nucore from returning to shipping. The way you address a leak is by making it antiquated. If NuCore would have released their code that was further along than pinbox and desirable.. then people have reason to buy Nucore. Pinbox still devalues them for some customers... but you can't ever put that genie back in the bottle.. so you can't hold out for 'pinbox being gone' as a gate to start shipping nucore again.
So, supposedly the WMS/PPS bridge was crossed... why hadn't nucore returned to the market? To me that's the damning point... suggesting that they really had to do more work to separate QEMU and their IP.
The whole 'they stole from QEMU' so pinbox was legitimized as a defense really doesn't fly as there will always be other elements they could claim infringement on.

We need to defend free software as well.

also the infringement at least on the WMS/PPS side can be covered by the dmca exemptions or even right of first sale / right to repair.

Did WMS/PPS look at there code and see we have GPL issues?

That there if they give back the code then it will very easy for someone to compile there own build with DRM bypass and just use it with WMS/PPS having a big fight to stop it?

Did they take all this time to build there own X86 VM system? even so there is still the issue of what was done in the past?

Cost of making a vmware build + chip set stuff (that Vmware may want to use) + the pci card stuff to high / may be some other issues with that.

#104 8 years ago
Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

We need to defend free software as well.
also the infringement at least on the WMS/PPS side can be covered by the dmca exemptions or even right of first sale / right to repair.
(1) Did WMS/PPS look at there code and see we have GPL issues?
(2) That there if they give back the code then it will very easy for someone to compile there own build with DRM bypass and just us it with WMS/PPS having a big fight to stop it?
(3)Did they take all this time to build there own X86 VM system? even so there is still the issue of what was done in the past?
Cost of making a vmware build + chip set stuff (that Vmware may want to use) + the pci card stuff to high / may be some other issues with that.

We have to remember... the QEMU stuff is just emulating the hardware.. it shouldn't be mixed in with all the application stuff. So this is not 'all or nothing' - there are several different components at play. The emulator, the customizations to present what hw is needed, any wrappers needed to get the pin2k code to run, any config/add-ons, and the pin2k game code and williams assets.

as for your points
1 - doubtful
2 - any give back would only be for part of the solution and not necessarily be enough to complete a project. And it doesn't touch the pin2k code itself at all.. anyone who think PPS is going to let that stuff be freely distributed so an open source project can run pin2k will be in for an awakening
3 - doubtful - I'd imagine a rework was probably done to help isolate things, but build up from zero? highly unlikely.

This isn't some monolith project.. its an emmulator and wrappers getting an existing application to run on its own as if it were running on its own native environment.

#105 8 years ago

If my CPU dies then I am going with pinbox because that is what's available at the moment. If Nucore was available then I would go with that however it's not. I'm sure many others have done the same since there are no other alternatives and even if Nucore comes back they will have missed out on a lot of business lost to pinbox. I could see even if Nucore returns people still using pinbox since pinheads are so cheap.

#106 8 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

We have to remember... the QEMU stuff is just emulating the hardware.. it shouldn't be mixed in with all the application stuff. So this is not 'all or nothing' - there are several different components at play. The emulator, the customizations to present what hw is needed, any wrappers needed to get the pin2k code to run, any config/add-ons, and the pin2k game code and williams assets.
as for your points
1 - doubtful
2 - any give back would only be for part of the solution and not necessarily be enough to complete a project. And it doesn't touch the pin2k code itself at all.. anyone who think PPS is going to let that stuff be freely distributed so an open source project can run pin2k will be in for an awakening
3 - doubtful - I'd imagine a rework was probably done to help isolate things, but build up from zero? highly unlikely.
This isn't some monolith project.. its an emmulator and wrappers getting an existing application to run on its own as if it were running on its own native environment.

The only wrappers I can think of that they can likely use is the pci card stuff. The chipset stuff is things that have to go back to qemu and I think AMD owns the rights to that hardware.

But at what level does the pci card stuff tie in under the GPL rules may be up for debate? As the card may have to coded in qemu as an pci card. Also people can do pci pass though with a real card to get around that.

reworking the roms to hdd image maybe they can lock that up but with out modding the rom code to use an DRM system the any code changes to qemu to add that may have to be given back / not put in to the emu code. Or they can use DMCA take downs with the new rom code only but for a place with just the qemu code likely not and if it makes it the main trunk then next to no hope.

Let's just say some one in there own build just points that NVRAM out to a file then there may be little that PPS can do.

#107 8 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

What doesn't pass the sniff test to me is why the Pinbox incident would have further held back Nucore from returning to shipping. The way you address a leak is by making it antiquated. If NuCore would have released their code that was further along than pinbox and desirable.. then people have reason to buy Nucore. Pinbox still devalues them for some customers... but you can't ever put that genie back in the bottle.. so you can't hold out for 'pinbox being gone' as a gate to start shipping nucore again.
So, supposedly the WMS/PPS bridge was crossed... why hadn't nucore returned to the market? To me that's the damning point...

I actually do know what is probably the answer to this though. I have worked with and know of things in a very similar industry, not sure if I'm free to speak about them so I won't, where the licenses for older things include assuming the legal responsibility to protect the copyrights that you are being granted, copyrights that the company may not want to enforce themselves for whatever reason.

As a for instance, let's say that I wanted to release a movie on VHS tape for some reason. I might get the rights to it but the company is worried that since VHS doesn't have much of anything for copy protection that a black market of VHS will rise up, and then for me to maintain my license I would have to stop those sellers.

For IP type properties like this, it makes total sense. I don't know the exact situation, but...

- if you're Williams and someone is making unlicensed Twilight Zone plastics, you have a legal responsibility to stop that for both yourself and the TZ property. It becomes advantageous to license your property out to force someone else to pay attention to that, even if they make a few bucks remaking other things you don't want to deal with like MM trolls.

Now, think about that situation and how crazy Wayne seemed when he held that license, sending c&d letters to everyone.

I have no first hand knowledge and don't know about this specifically, but I bet dollars to donuts their license included that if it was ever pirated, they would have to try to legally stop them before sales could resume.

#108 8 years ago
Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

The only wrappers I can think of that they can likely use is the pci card stuff. The chipset stuff is things that have to go back to qemu and I think AMD owns the rights to that hardware.

But their fixes could be as simple as making the system report back as the labels expected (hardware check workaround).

Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

But at what level does the pci card stuff tie in under the GPL rules may be up for debate? As the card may have to coded in qemu as an pci card. Also people can do pci pass though with a real card to get around that.

Given the relative lack of documentation on their design.. and my lack of motivation to go through the code.. I can't confirm either way. I just don't think it's so B&W as some make it out to be because they think the whole thing is QEMU.

Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

Let's just say some one in there own build just points that NVRAM out to a file then there may be little that PPS can do.

Only if you have the willingness to stand up and fight PPS in court.. because they have shown they are not shy on pursuing others. Distributing the IP would be a serious uphil battle to win.

#109 8 years ago
Quoted from goatdan:

I have no first hand knowledge and don't know about this specifically, but I bet dollars to donuts their license included that if it was ever pirated, they would have to try to legally stop them before sales could resume.

I agree with the idea they (PPS in this case) could be obligated to pursue offenders.. and BGP could be obligated to address any holes in their system that would put the IP at risk.. and maybe pursue anyone illegally distributing their stuff. But have to WAIT until legal wraps up?? That's much different than pursuing while continuing to operate. Everyone wants to make sure their licensee's protect the IP they are trusted with... but shutdown if you get hacked?

Who would enter an agreement that says 'you agree to suspend all sales if any party manages to illegally copy your stuff, with or without any culpable actions from you'. No one would agree to those kinds of open ended things they can't really control.

#110 8 years ago
Quoted from goatdan:

I actually do know what is probably the answer to this though. I have worked with and know of things in a very similar industry, not sure if I'm free to speak about them so I won't, where the licenses for older things include assuming the legal responsibility to protect the copyrights that you are being granted, copyrights that the company may not want to enforce themselves for whatever reason.
As a for instance,

But where does license end and the unlicensed hardware stuff start?

also how much will WMS / PPS have to stand on if some came out with a qmeu build that just needed the real pci card to run? As under the DMCA stuff like that is ok.

Now lets say in a different non pinball setting let says some came out with a DRM wrapped dos box or other emu build that still needed at least some of the original disks / dongle / hardware. And then some found a way to bypass that added DRM.

Now in that why should who ever owns the original the IP have the right to force people to rebuy the software / force the people working on the emu that uses an open source base to even add drm in the first place.

It's not like the NES / SENS / SEGA / ETC where they own the rights to the base hardware / bios.

There are DOSBoxed games on steam that have no drm and the rights owns can stop people from useing there own original disks to play them on newer systems.

#111 8 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

But their fixes could be as simple as making the system report back as the labels expected (hardware check workaround).

Only if you have the willingness to stand up and fight PPS in court.. because they have shown they are not shy on pursuing others. Distributing the IP would be a serious uphil battle to win.

But how far does the IP go? As for a place there PPS may have a hard time is with say you need the pci card and then you just tell QEMU to use the chipset needed and then map pci card X to the vm and boot vm from pci rom plan B.
Or what about coding a script that dumps out the roms on the card to ram (no hard saved local copy just to be very safe about copyright stuff) and useing all basic tools to convert them to some format the QEMU can use.

#112 8 years ago
Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

The only wrappers I can think of that they can likely use is the pci card stuff. The chipset stuff is things that have to go back to qemu and I think AMD owns the rights to that hardware.

Doesn't matter. *IF* AMD or Cyrix at the time released programmer manuals with SOC information; it's now in the public domain anyway. AMD can't "pull" information they released. It's the same situation with many other companies - once you release a datasheet / manual with how to do something - you forgive your rights to reign in opensource projects. At best; you can only sue competitors copying implementations - not software apps using the information to accomplish a goal. Could you imagine if AMD tried to sue Microsoft for using x86-64bit extensions. Just wouldn't/couldn't happen.

*IF* Nucore modified any bit of QEMU to support MediaGX chips... then they were legally obligated to share that source - regardless of if AMD's IP was used. Nucore had ZERO CHOICE given they then distributed binaries of said modifications.

#113 8 years ago

Does anyone received the CD of the "free source code" or at least an answer about the order state from Chuck or Don or someone else from the Nucore guys? http://www.bigguyspinball.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1164

All speculations about what happened, what is and what will be are just hot air...

Solely they can give us an answer but it seems not in near future. They make an announcement in january and no reaction till today.
http://www.bigguyspinball.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1165

Of course their lawyer(s?) would said don't tell anything in public as long as the proceedings are not completed.

So relax and play pinball

#114 8 years ago
Quoted from Ahoernchen:

So relax and play pinball

Unfortunately, the only way many can do this is to use pinbox.

#115 8 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

...if Nucore doesn't come out and my RFM turns into a 300 pound paperwork I'd probably do what I had to do for it to be a pin again...

Quoted from Pinterest:

...screwed when their P2K computers died...the fact remains that as a result of Nucore's efforts those with a RFM or SWE1 machine and a bad computer had no other options before the Nucore solution.

Quoted from BoJo:

...many others have done the same since there are no other alternatives...

Quoted from markmon:

Unfortunately, the only way many can do this is to use pinbox.

I'm not sure why it seems everyone overlooks repair of the originals. Before, during, and after nucore, repair has been an option. And, even absolutely worse case, where everything in the P2K computer case needed to be replaced (I've never seen this being needed) with NOS, it is, and always has been, less expensive than going with nucore.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

#116 8 years ago
Quoted from Borygard:

I'm not sure why it seems everyone overlooks repair of the originals. Before, during, and after nucore, repair has been an option. And, even absolutely worse case, where everything in the P2K computer case needed to be replaced (I've never seen this being needed) with NOS, it is, and always has been, less expensive than going with nucore.
--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

All great points -- you're right of course Borygard!

#117 8 years ago

Just out of curiosity, do we know either way whether Nucore is going to be re-released?

Not that I don't care about the intellectual debate we are having over the software and pirating and what not, but bottom line: will this product be made available again or has that ship sailed? Or, does nobody know (also reasonable).

#118 8 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Just out of curiosity, do we know either way whether Nucore is going to be re-released?

according to the post on their website, yes . . .

Nucore_is_Returning!_-_(resized).pngNucore_is_Returning!_-_(resized).png

#119 8 years ago
Quoted from Borygard:

And, even absolutely worse case, where everything in the P2K computer case needed to be replaced (I've never seen this being needed) with NOS, it is, and always has been, less expensive than going with nucore.

The pricing is what has always turned me off about Nucore. When it was announced that they were working on it I was really excited. I had both P2K machines, and one had a flaky motherboard. So I was ready to buy. I even bought a computer to use in anticipation of the release (for the software-only option). Then they announced it for sale, and it was easily twice what I was willing to pay. So I just bought a new motherboard instead and saved myself hundreds. Has worked great ever since.

I ended up using the computer I had bought (that was going to run Nucore) as a home computer. Funny thing is, that computer died a couple years later... bad caps on the motherboard! Same issue that plagued the P2K motherboards!

#120 8 years ago
Quoted from mattosborn:

The pricing is what has always turned me off about Nucore. When it was announced that they were working on it I was really excited. I had both P2K machines, and one had a flaky motherboard. So I was ready to buy. I even bought a computer to use in anticipation of the release (for the software-only option). Then they announced it for sale, and it was easily twice what I was willing to pay. So I just bought a new motherboard instead and saved myself hundreds. Has worked great ever since.
I ended up using the computer I had bought (that was going to run Nucore) as a home computer. Funny thing is, that computer died a couple years later... bad caps on the motherboard! Same issue that plagued the P2K motherboards!

and a price that high for open source software now I can see maybe people paying $50-$100 for a ready to go with support build of the software or if you don't want to pay you can roll your own. But why should WMS / others get to double dip and need to be payed again for there software?

Now if you can take there code added the base open source software run it and it's not that hard to get the rom files dumped or even map the pci card into the VM (that you have a legal right to dump from you owned hardware)

#121 8 years ago

I'd bet wms got very little. Rick got it all... after lining pockets of nucore.

#122 8 years ago
Quoted from Zitt:

I'd bet wms got very little. Rick got it all... after lining pockets of nucore.

Wms got paid when Rick licensed everything from them, he then has to get a return on that investment by licensing things out to others. Rick was/is getting a percentage of every sale, my guess is between 15 and 20% but depends on variety of factors on their negotiations. Rick may also need to pay to keep the patents active so that factors into it as well

#123 8 years ago

If there is a tax that keeps things on the open market and avoids having to do things black market.. and allows people to use high quality original art, tooling, etc.. I'm all for PPS 'getting paid'

The alternative sucks and as long as things are reasonable I'm ok with the overhead. I'm always amazed at how much anger people manage to drum up when it comes to someone wanting to get paid for something they are entitled too.

#124 8 years ago

My point wasn't in implying Rick shouldn't get paid... but that I doubt WMS is getting much if anything.

1 month later
#125 7 years ago

Soo... still on track for release this year?

#126 7 years ago

How bout' those Mets??

#127 7 years ago
Quoted from snakesnsparklers:

Soo... still on track for release this year?

Last update was from April 28th. Still working on the licensing agreements.

#128 7 years ago

Nucore was 3 guys, don, chuck and the original guy who almost got it working

It sold for $400

Gene had a patent and got $40 , I had patents and got $40 pinball life sold them and got $40

$280 left was split between the 3 Nucore guys

Don did all the work and was a great guy to deal with , me am don did the original deal

It fell apart after my time, now there is only Rick holding all the rights, why they don't just make them for Rick to sell,

No need for all the crap just Rick pays x amount and sells for x amount same as any part he sells.

#129 7 years ago

These guys miss so many promises - even Jack makes fun of them.....

#130 7 years ago
Quoted from blowback1976:Last update was from April 28th. Still working on the licensing agreements.

What about the right to use what ever under lining VM?

Also why do they need to have licensing to just officer a replacement for the old CPU when the people who own the games have the rights under the law to get replacement parts?

#131 7 years ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

Nucore was 3 guys, don, chuck and the original guy who almost got it working

Who is the third person?

#132 7 years ago
Quoted from Wizboy:

Who is the third person?

Steve Ellenoff. He got the emulation to almost 100% on his own.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

-1
#133 7 years ago
Quoted from Borygard:

Steve Ellenoff. He got the emulation to almost 100% on his own.
--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

on his own?

http://qemu.11.n7.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=user_nodes&user=1660

#134 7 years ago

I would say so.... His response rate looks a lot like Pinside's response rate when a technical question isn't about LEDs..... LOL

Capture_(resized).PNGCapture_(resized).PNG

#135 7 years ago
Quoted from ralphwiggum:

I would say so.... His response rate looks a lot like Pinside's response rate when a technical question isn't about LEDs..... LOL

other then using the qemu code base. But that is very damming for them over GPL / LGPL issues.

2 weeks later
#136 7 years ago

Any updates on when this may be released again or is Rick or someone else blocking the deal in some way?

2 months later
#138 7 years ago

I am in need of a Nucore system too. Will it be ready this year? Same computer requirements?

#139 7 years ago

I'm surprised not to see any updates on this at all. Does anyone have any inside info?

#140 7 years ago

Minor bump for an update if anyone has one. The year is running out quickly.

1 week later
#141 7 years ago

Bump

#142 7 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Minor bump for an update if anyone has one. The year is running out quickly.

why does anyone even care now that pinbox is available and very stable?

#143 7 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

why does anyone even care now that pinbox is available and very stable?

I agree but think some just prefer a plug and play option or maybe are not comfortable building a pinbox.

#144 7 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

why does anyone even care now that pinbox is available and very stable?

Some of us would like to do things the legal way?

#145 7 years ago
Quoted from goatdan:

Some of us would like to do things the legal way?

like own an original nucore where they (allegedly but code monkies that are smarter than me have made it obvious for anyone paying attention) stole the base code? lol

#146 7 years ago

I'm sure that when(/if) NuCore returns, it will be legal from end to end. There will be too big of a spotlight on it for that not to be the case.

#147 7 years ago

They CAN make it legal... either way I hope they return.

#148 7 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

like own an original nucore where they (allegedly but code monkies that are smarter than me have made it obvious for anyone paying attention) stole the base code? lol

I have been paying attention, and for those who know copyright it's anything but proven.

But hey, if you need that to justify it. Lol

#149 7 years ago
Quoted from goatdan:

I have been paying attention, and for those who know copyright it's anything but proven.

They violated the terms of the license relative to QEMU, that is a fact. If you go back and look they made a change to how it is distributed relative to the open source side of the code to try get legal, and that change was made long after they stopped selling and was clearly in response to the QEMU people getting involved.

I have to assume them being in violation was a factor in the settlement of the lawsuit with pinbox (you know that whole people who live in glass houses thing -- e.g. a little hard to scream copyright violation, when the thing you are claiming is yours is in violation of someone else copyright).

I have to assume the current holdup is them working out a new license with pps/wms and/or continuing to address the violation of the QEMU license. Just wonder if there is enough money out there for WMS and Nucore to make it worth their while. Also, whatever WMS patents that might have been a factor in any licensing needs, are likely close to end of life, so that could also be a factor as well.

#150 7 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

They violated the terms of the license relative to QEMU, that is a fact. If you go back and look they made a change to how it is distributed relative to the open source side of the code to try get legal, and that change was made long after they stopped selling and was clearly in response to the QEMU people getting involved.
I have to assume them being in violation was a factor in the settlement of the lawsuit with pinbox (you know that whole people who live in glass houses thing -- e.g. a little hard to scream copyright violation, when the thing you are claiming is yours is in violation of someone else copyright).
I have to assume the current holdup is them working out a new license with pps/wms and/or continuing to address the violation of the QEMU license. Just wonder if there is enough money out there for WMS and Nucore to make it worth their while. Also, whatever WMS patents that might have been a factor in any licensing needs, are likely close to end of life, so that could also be a factor as well.

also the cat is out of the bag and it may be hard to have sell an new one and be on the defense agent pinbox or others doing the same thing.

Why not just make it free it's not like it's going to work with out the pinball hardware.

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