(Topic ID: 152628)

Nucore is Returning! 2016


By Pinballarie

3 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 171 posts
  • 56 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by rubberducks
  • Topic is favorited by 24 Pinsiders

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There are 171 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 4.
#1 3 years ago

Nucore is Returning!

See the website forum Nucore

http://www.bigguyspinball.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1165

-1
#2 3 years ago

Will is be with or without QEMU code? If with, get em while you can as I'd expect another lawsuit.

#3 3 years ago

This seems like great news.
Hope it works out.

#4 3 years ago

Not to throw cold water but is that "announcement" much different than what they've been saying for like 2 years?

#5 3 years ago

Doesn't sound any different. No release dates etc.

#6 3 years ago

Popcorn is popped.............................

#7 3 years ago

More Pinside speculation. Let it roll.

12
#8 3 years ago

My pinbox is working fine

#9 3 years ago
Quoted from pfinny:

My pinbox is working fine

And away we go..........................

#10 3 years ago

was there ever an outcome to the whole legal battle?

#11 3 years ago

Hopefully they will release a version without the lame proprietary board. No point trading the prism card for something even more unobtanium. If Pinbox can produce a better product than Nucore, surely a new Nucore could top Pinbox.

1 week later
#12 3 years ago

If/when it does happen, I'd be interested in the details. As I understand it, neither Nucore OR Pinbox are available at present, correct?

Greg

#13 3 years ago

Pinbox is readily available if you look around.

#14 3 years ago

Pinbox will be available forever.

#15 3 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

Pinbox will be available forever.

-mod note: please don't point to copyrighted stuff-

#16 3 years ago

hope nucore comes with a raspberry pi plug and play solution that would be killer!!!

#17 3 years ago

Hopefully Don will get some help this time

#18 3 years ago

It can definitely run on raspberry pi. But it needs a serial port added.

#19 3 years ago

raspberry pi 3 just announced. this should definitely be the platform for nucore!

#20 3 years ago

"It can definitely run on raspberry pi. But it needs a serial port added."

How can it run on a Raspberry Pi? I thought QEMU was only providing an emulation layer for peripherals and the like on an actual x86 system. The Raspberry Pi is ARM based, not x86 based. Or is QEMU an actual x86 emulator? I'm confused .

Also, the raspberry Pi needs a parallel port, not a serial port, right? There might be enough GPIO available to emulate a parallel port, but you'd need 5V level shifters.

#21 3 years ago

Having two pin2ks I'm in.

#22 3 years ago

QEMU can run as an x86 emulator but the speed may not be there on ARM.

QEMU running in VM mode X86 on X86 is faster.

Nucore is just QEMU + the chip set stuff that pin2k needs (no way that can make any copyright clam over that) + the pci card that is really just storage + sound card. It needs a real parallel port as well.

Pinbox just bypassed the USB dongle that (nucore also used for NVRAM as well) If you need a dongle is it cheaper to have as just an dongle with the NVRAM on disk as a file (can work better and be more flexible that way)

#23 3 years ago
Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

QEMU can run as an x86 emulator but the speed may not be there on ARM.
QEMU running in VM mode X86 on X86 is faster.
Nucore is just QEMU + the chip set stuff that pin2k needs (no way that can make any copyright clam over that) + the pci card that is really just storage + sound card. It needs a real parallel port as well.
Pinbox just bypassed the USB dongle that (nucore also used for NVRAM as well) If you need a dongle is it cheaper to have as just an dongle with the NVRAM on disk as a file (can work better and be more flexible that way)

I would imagine the pi 3 is fast enough. A53s are pretty nippy. QEMU can't be THAT taxing? Either way, surely it would be a good idea to port it to ARM if possible ... could keep the platform costs a lot lower.

Either way, given the increase in release cadence - Zero at the end of last year & 3 now - I imagine they may release an A72 based Pi in the next year ... that would be all the grunt you'd ever need for a pinball system, new or old.

#24 3 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

I would imagine the pi 3 is fast enough. A53s are pretty nippy. QEMU can't be THAT taxing? Either way, surely it would be a good idea to port it to ARM if possible ... could keep the platform costs a lot lower.
Either way, given the increase in release cadence - Zero at the end of last year & 3 now - I imagine they may release an A72 based Pi in the next year ... that would be all the grunt you'd ever need for a pinball system, new or old.

But the Pi is still on that one usb bus. and USB does eat cpu power.

also to run QEMU on arm to run a X86 system is a lot slower then running on a X86 system with virtualization extensions

#25 3 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

QEMU can't be THAT taxing?

Wtf do you actually understand how things work or just make assumptions? Emulation is one of the most CPU intensive operations for any platform. The more diverse the two platforms, the more that has to be done via software. I don't see any rasp pi handling this.

#26 3 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

Wtf do you actually understand how things work or just make assumptions? Emulation is one of the most CPU intensive operations for any platform. The more diverse the two platforms, the more that has to be done via software. I don't see any rasp pi handling this.

Both kvm and qemu run on the pi3 however it will be slow as hell and there is absolutely no video acceleration so I don't suspect the video will be performant and the pi doesn't support paravirt so that's a non starter. All hypervisor based.

#27 3 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

Wtf do you actually understand how things work or just make assumptions? Emulation is one of the most CPU intensive operations for any platform. The more diverse the two platforms, the more that has to be done via software. I don't see any rasp pi handling this.

Non-computer people never understand how complicated things can be. Look for any thread asking about changing code on wpc games.

#28 3 years ago

There are some Intel Atom based boards that are about the same size as a Pi that might do the job.

There is a relatively cheap motherboard available from Newegg with a parallel port and integrated graphics too .

Im pretty sure you can use the DCS sound system code in MAME for all of the audio stuff ... I looked into that and found one of the emulated sound boards to be almost identical to Pin2K's.

Where I get confused is mapping the graphics stuff to a system you'd build in QEMU ... That Cyrix system on chip CPU Pin2k used had integrated graphics. It seemed like it was a basic SVGA frame buffer mapped to a chunk of memory. It also had some MPEG acceleration hardware ... I don't know if Pin2K software ever used that. I'm a hardware engineer by trade and my software skills are caked with rust .

Something tells me it wouldn't be ridiculously difficult to get things up and running should a SW engineer familiar with QEMU want to take a look at it. Nothing is ever easy, but I suspect all of the major pieces are available via open sourced software (aside from the ROMs of course). Hopefully PPS could provide ROM licenses to purchase should a new, free version spring up in the near future.

#29 3 years ago

ROM licenses to purchase?? why should the people who own the games have to re-buy them? Maybe for VP but the timing makes this not work in windows well.

Pin2k is very tied to the Cyrix chipset a cheap and lower end system at the time. Allegro librarys as well. Also how tied to the system is the pci's card boot rom?

They likely used the DCS2 sound code from MAME or just had the lot of wave files played from sound calls.

the get it running in QEMU they likely needed to add that chip set to QEMU (they really need to give that code back) and did something with the pci card (convert it to disk or just mapped it in (it seems to just be storage + sound card))

#30 3 years ago

pinbox

#31 3 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

Wtf do you actually understand how things work or just make assumptions? Emulation is one of the most CPU intensive operations for any platform. The more diverse the two platforms, the more that has to be done via software. I don't see any rasp pi handling this.

Actually, I do. Whilst I'm no expert on software, I know plenty about hardware - enough to know you're speaking out of your behind. You're talking about emulating a system that was written over 15 years ago on absolutely not state of the art hardware for the time. If a Pi 3 couldn't run it in emulation fast enough it'd be entirely due to lacking featureset or poorly adapted code, not raw performance. The SoC in the Pi 3 probably has a quarter of a billion transistors, if not significantly more (dunno how big the gpu is). The Cyrix MediaGX has 2.4million (100x less) and runs at 120-160Mhz (dunno which SKU Pin2K used) as opposed to 1.2Ghz for the 2 A53 cores in the Pi3.

To give you an idea of how stupid your assertion is. In Dhrystone 2.1 the following scores can be expected:

Pentium 150Mhz (probably 20% faster than the Cyrix MediaGX) - 185-190MIPS
Raspberry Pi Model B+ - 840-850MIPS
Raspberry Pi Zero - 1230-1240MIPS
Raspberry Pi 2 - ~1650MIPS
Raspberry Pi 3 - 2458MIPS according to the first and only benchmarking test I've found - https://www.raspberrypi.org/magpi/raspberry-pi-3-specs-benchmarks/

The GPU is in addition to this and isn't comparable in any meaningful sense of the word. How much RAM does Pin2K have? 32MB? Maximum 64MB? Pi3 has 1GB.

You can easily run an N64 emulator on an ARM SoC with half the power of a Pi 3. According to various sources the N64 scores about 125MIPS in Dhrystone, though due to the custom graphics hardware was considerably more powerful than this would suggest (and therefore more taxing to emulate).

#32 3 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Whilst I'm no expert on software

That right there says it all. If you have no knowledge of emulation you really shouldn't be trying to hold an argument.

#33 3 years ago

You appear to have no clue about either software or hardware. So perhaps you shouldn't interject at all.

#34 3 years ago

Meh, going to just hit ignore. I am a developer by trade so pretty sure I have a better idea than a keyboard commando.

#35 3 years ago

If cavemen said it cant be done,
we wouldnd have fire

so start beating some rocks and make this happen!

#36 3 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

enough it'd be entirely due to lacking featureset or poorly adapted code, not raw performance. The SoC in the Pi 3 probably has a quarter of a billion transistors, if not significantly more (dunno how big the gpu is). The Cyrix MediaGX has 2.4million (100x less) and runs at 120-160Mhz (dunno which SKU Pin2K used) as opposed to 1.2Ghz for the 2 A53 cores in the Pi3.
To give you an idea of how stupid your assertion is. In Dhrystone 2.1 the following score

Quoted from rubberducks:

Actually, I do. Whilst I'm no expert on software, I know plenty about hardware - enough to know you're speaking out of your behind. You're talking about emulating a system that was written over 15 years ago on absolutely not state of the art hardware for the time. If a Pi 3 couldn't run it in emulation fast enough it'd be entirely due to lacking featureset or poorly adapted code, not raw performance. The SoC in the Pi 3 probably has a quarter of a billion transistors, if not significantly more (dunno how big the gpu is). The Cyrix MediaGX has 2.4million (100x less) and runs at 120-160Mhz (dunno which SKU Pin2K used) as opposed to 1.2Ghz for the 2 A53 cores in the Pi3.
To give you an idea of how stupid your assertion is. In Dhrystone 2.1 the following scores can be expected:
Pentium 150Mhz (probably 20% faster than the Cyrix MediaGX) - 185-190MIPS
Raspberry Pi Model B+ - 840-850MIPS
Raspberry Pi Zero - 1230-1240MIPS
Raspberry Pi 2 - ~1650MIPS
Raspberry Pi 3 - 2458MIPS according to the first and only benchmarking test I've found - https://www.raspberrypi.org/magpi/raspberry-pi-3-specs-benchmarks/
The GPU is in addition to this and isn't comparable in any meaningful sense of the word. How much RAM does Pin2K have? 32MB? Maximum 64MB? Pi3 has 1GB.
You can easily run an N64 emulator on an ARM SoC with half the power of a Pi 3. According to various sources the N64 scores about 125MIPS in Dhrystone, though due to the custom graphics hardware was considerably more powerful than this would suggest (and therefore more taxing to emulate).

While hardware speed does play a small role in virtualization it actually has only a marginal amount to due with the overall speed of what you are emulating.

Ever play mame games? Or I should ask, ever TRY to play some mame games that have been poorly emulated? Doesn't matter what type of hardware you are running, they still run like shit.

#37 3 years ago
Quoted from Pinchroma:

Ever play mame games? Or I should ask, ever TRY to play some mame games that have been poorly emulated? Doesn't matter what type of hardware you are running, they still run like shit.

Tekken, Crusin' USA/World, anything that has to render 3d is usually problematic in MAME because properly emulating hardware that may have little to no documentation is f'ing hard work (although I think Crusin' uses raycasting). Translating over OpCodes that you aren't even sure what they do... Fun stuff. I tried messing around with emulation years ago, and got lost immediately, way over my head, and that was simpler stuff like Z80.

#38 3 years ago
Quoted from Pinchroma:

While hardware speed does play a small role in virtualization it actually has only a marginal amount to due with the overall speed of what you are emulating.

Also if you are using a cheat. Qemu has a nice little piece in it. If you are on an x86 architecture and emulating x86 then it bypasses part of the emulation. It runs some of the code natively on your systems cpu instead of trying to emulate it. If you use anything running ARM you are having to actually emulate the entire system.

#39 3 years ago

Didn't pin2k use the pcs video card tho? A world of difference between trying to emulate entirely different hardware designs. Pixelmon should have a lot more in common with pin2k than emulating the old Sprite based hardware that is so timing dependent.

#40 3 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Didn't pin2k use the pcs video card tho? A world of difference between trying to emulate entirely different hardware designs. Pixelmon should have a lot more in common with pin2k than emulating the old Sprite based hardware that is so timing dependent.

Did it make a lot of use of it or just basic svga / vga / vesa modes? and the os drivers are tied to that chipset.

#41 3 years ago

Im laughing a little at the thoughts that Nucure is going to "port" anything...

They've struggled to just release a product THEY ALREADY HAD for, what, years now?

#42 3 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Im laughing a little at the thoughts that Nucure is going to "port" anything...
They've struggled to just release a product THEY ALREADY HAD for, what, years now?

more like port there old code to the new ver of qemu.

#43 3 years ago

I certainly think the Nucore product is great. I wish they would get it out there again. I don't see it happening though, at least not this year.

#44 3 years ago
Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

ROM licenses to purchase?? why should the people who own the games have to re-buy them? Maybe for VP but the timing makes this not work in windows well.

I'd want to sell my original CPU and setup if I could install a modern replacement and legally own a copy of the software ... that's all. I certainly see your point *if* I decide to keep the original ... in that instance, my prisim card and ROMs would act as sort of a license I suppose.

Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

the get it running in QEMU they likely needed to add that chip set to QEMU (they really need to give that code back) and did something with the pci card (convert it to disk or just mapped it in (it seems to just be storage + sound card))

I was browsing through some QEMU code last night and I *think* the MediaGX and the 5220 chipset is added. If that's the case, then all that's left is figuring out how to boot from PCI ... that'll at least get things up and running w/o sound and parallel port support (in theory).

I need to learn how QEMU works overall ... this might not be too difficult though my software skills are really rusty. I've been developing rather complex applications using FPGAs for the past 20 years . The last time I wrote anything "fun" software-wise was some basic emulation back in the late 1990s. The rest has been basic drivers for SW people that use my logic.

#45 3 years ago

Not being a computer person, I would like to see some sort of wifi gizmo so a person can stream his or her music until a game starts.I am oversimpifying it as it may not be a simple tasK. Why not throw a few mindless classics such as Galaga, Pacman, Space Invaders as a warm up ? Again you guys are over my head but fun is fun. Of course main objective is to keep P2K going but a souped up home Nucore version would be pretty cool.

#46 3 years ago

Id want the ability to add a customization mode, where we could spruce things up. Individuals could create their own animations and we could share and load them into our systems. Add some foul languange!!!

Perhaps expanded online play would be awesome. Todays high-speed internet could allow a webcam for head-to-head gaming over the internet a reality.

Also, it would be awesome to be able to download the wizard blocks software when that is complete

#47 3 years ago
Quoted from lurch:

Id want the ability to add a customization mode, where we could spruce things up. Individuals could create their own animations and we could share and load them into our systems. Add some foul languange!!!
Perhaps expanded online play would be awesome. Todays high-speed internet could allow a webcam for head-to-head gaming over the internet a reality.
Also, it would be awesome to be able to download the wizard blocks software when that is complete

the lag will kill head to head pinball over the net.

#48 3 years ago
Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

the lag will kill head to head pinball over the net.

I think its worth a try! I volunteer to be a guinea pig.

#49 3 years ago
Quoted from lurch:

I think its worth a try! I volunteer to be a guinea pig.

the thing is you have little control over the lag and it can very a lot.

#50 3 years ago
Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

the thing is you have little control over the lag and it can very a lot.

Its no different than playing on xbox or playstation, lag can kill any game. Question is how much lag can be tolerated? If we are talking 50ms then i doubt the average player would even notice, if higher, then i suspect it would be unplayable.

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