(Topic ID: 351711)

Not dying or killing people with 120V

By williampietri

17 days ago


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#1 17 days ago

Having now gotten my first EM working (Hokus Pokus, a 1975 Bally), I'm getting started on a Teacher's Pet (1965 Williams). After vacuuming out out all the mouse poop, I spent some time taking a look at the wiring and had a few surprises. I'm used to working on modern electronics, where the line power is segregated into a small area of the device, and Hokus Pokus wasn't too far off that. But apparently in 1965 they had not invented little things like safety, so the line current runs all over, including to the coin door and the left flipper button.

I'm sure this is kinda boring to the old hands here, but since I would like to become an old hand, I'm wondering: what do people to do work safely on older machines? And how do you make sure that these creaky beasts don't kill visitors?

I've already ordered one of the Pinball Scientist's grounding kits and a fresh 3-prong power cord, which seems like a good start. Are there other things people do? Cover exposed contacts; wear gloves; rerun newer, better-insulated wires? Normally I'm a bit of a purist, wanting to keep things as original as possible. But when it comes to things like electrocution and fire, I'm suddenly more flexible.

Up next after this one are a Derby Day (Gottlieb 1956) and a Carom (Bally 1939). I'm sure I have more horrors ahead of me, so I'll happily take advice for older machines too.
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#2 17 days ago

Has anybody ever heard of someone getting killed working on a pinball machine?

#3 17 days ago
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#4 17 days ago

Properly use the polarized plug and you and your guests will be fine playing it. Wear some shoes and do not work on it in a puddle of water while working on it.

#5 17 days ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Has anybody ever heard of someone getting killed working on a pinball machine?

Nothing to worry about. Just be sure and wear rubber souls.

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#6 17 days ago

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/replacing-line-cords-plugs-wall-sockets-vids-guide , pinball scientist's kit and your awareness of the issue - you should be good.

#7 17 days ago
Quoted from williampietri:

Having now gotten my first EM working (Hokus Pokus, a 1975 Bally), I'm getting started on a Teacher's Pet (1965 Williams). After vacuuming out out all the mouse poop, I spent some time taking a look at the wiring and had a few surprises. I'm used to working on modern electronics, where the line power is segregated into a small area of the device, and Hokus Pokus wasn't too far off that. But apparently in 1965 they had not invented little things like safety, so the line current runs all over, including to the coin door and the left flipper button.
I'm sure this is kinda boring to the old hands here, but since I would like to become an old hand, I'm wondering: what do people to do work safely on older machines? And how do you make sure that these creaky beasts don't kill visitors?
I've already ordered one of the Pinball Scientist's grounding kits and a fresh 3-prong power cord, which seems like a good start. Are there other things people do? Cover exposed contacts; wear gloves; rerun newer, better-insulated wires? Normally I'm a bit of a purist, wanting to keep things as original as possible. But when it comes to things like electrocution and fire, I'm suddenly more flexible.
Up next after this one are a Derby Day (Gottlieb 1956) and a Carom (Bally 1939). I'm sure I have more horrors ahead of me, so I'll happily take advice for older machines too.
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Electrician here for over 25 years. You are way too concerned about something that isn't a threat, presumably based on a lack of understanding of how these machines work. Nothing is exposed to the player that would be able to shock them. The metal side rails have no contact with the wiring, the flipper buttons are generally plastic, and there's bakelite between the player and the credit switches on the front door (also neither those or the flipper switches are running on line voltage). The only high voltage part you toggle is the on/off switch, which is again buffered by bakelite and you are only touching it with one hand (failure would not cause current to cross your heart). Even without the ground kit, you'd have to have a catastrophic failure of that switch (which if it was a dead short would blow the breaker) and be standing on a conductive surface barefoot with low resistance moist skin.

Pinball tables are not like working on telephone pole or a 480V sub feed. Unless the wood was saturated, there's not enough voltage to conduct through it, even from the line side of the transformer.

The only thing you need to be concerned about is making sure the power cable isn't frayed and is in good working order, make sure that no wires are broken and coming into contact with the line side of the transformer, and don't spray contact cleaner on any part of a machine while it's connected to line voltage.

If, after everything above you are still concerned about the dangers of older machines, please don't work on them and sub it out to a local shop. This is not inherently exclusive to this post, but these forums are rife with comments that indicate a fear of electricity instead of a respect for it. Research and understand basic electrical concepts before working on anything powered and you will he fine.

#8 17 days ago

They weren't available when I had my pinball arcade, but now I recommend plugging in to a Ground Fault (GFCI) outlet, circuit breaker, or power strip.

#9 17 days ago

It should be as simple as unplugging the machine from the wall outlet if there’s any doubt that you’re working on the 120v section. You shouldn’t be working inside of the machine with the power on anyway.

#10 17 days ago

Safety, along with organic products, is probably the greatest marketing effort of our lifetimes. Don't blame the 60's for not having it.....

#11 17 days ago
Quoted from WalrusPin:

Nothing is exposed to the player that would be able to shock them. The metal side rails have no contact with the wiring

True in theory, but not in real life. Few people are attempting to fix a machine that is working correctly.

You can easily get a shock from the side rail when these old wires fray and cause shorts.

#12 17 days ago

If you look at enough schematics you'll notice that the 120 volt section got smaller and smaller over time. By the late 70s there wasn't much more than a fuse and the power switch.

Having personal and unpleasant experience with a live side rail I tend to be cautious and recommend caution. Games may have been safe when they originally shipped but over their lifetimes things change. Paper insulators wear. Solder tabs get bent. Some games were modified for free play so the coin return button pushes the 120v credit switch, etc.

The time and effort it takes to update a game with a 3 pronged plug is worth it to me. It may not make it entirely shock proof, but it should make it significantly safer. The responsibility of having some unsuspecting kid getting shocked by a game I didn't retrofit is drama I don't need.

/Mark

#13 17 days ago
Quoted from williampietri:

I'm wondering: what do people to do work safely on older machines?

Limit the situations where you have to work with the game power on.

If I need to work on the incoming path for power, grounding, or the transformer at all, I unplug the game.

And when the power is on, don't touch any high voltage items with your bare hands. 6v isn't noticeable. 12v will tingle slightly. 25v will sting a bit. 50v will sting more. 120v may knock you back and make your arm tingle afterwards for a few minutes.

Unless you have a medical condition or pacemaker, a quick touch probably won't do much harm other than teach you not to do the thing you were doing again.

I've probably only been zapped by 50v flipper coils maybe twice the whole time I've been working on pins, and maybe 120v twice in my lifetime (though for non-pinball related reasons). I've felt a 12v tingle on lockbars or siderails a handful of times due to improper grounding in games that I acquired (and of course, which I later corrected).

Quoted from williampietri:

And how do you make sure that these creaky beasts don't kill visitors?

The metal parts (such as the legs, door, lockbar, and siderails) on some EM games didn't always have proper grounding, like on more modern games. There are instructions available on how to properly ground them--either on pinwiki or somewhere on the forums. This is the best thing you can do to help prevent players from getting zapped.

Quoted from williampietri:

Are there other things people do? Cover exposed contacts; wear gloves; rerun newer, better-insulated wires?

1) Inspect the game thoroughly. Look for wear or damage that might cause shorts--worn/damaged insulation materials or bent/broken/dislodged contacts. Look for stray metal components, such as screws, switch parts, or ball guides in places where they aren't supposed to be. I usually go through this checklist for new acquisitions: https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Post-Purchase_Checklist

Exposed contacts, such as solder or coil/switch lugs, don't need to be covered. When adding grounding wires, the terminal connectors I use are insulated. If I'm replacing spade connectors, I also usually use insulated ones.

2) I wear nitrile gloves whenever I work on games. More for the grime than for electrical protection. They do offer some slight electrical protection, but you will still feel 25v+ through them like the gloves aren't even there. The only time I will consider insulated electrical gloves is when working on a CRT monitor's flyback. I always wear sneakers or rubber-soled slippers when working on games--never barefoot or just in socks. This is to help prevent an electrical path to ground through my feet, and to help prevent a buildup of static electricity (which can affect solid state game components).

3) If the insulation on a wire is compromised, I will address it. If it's plastic insulated wire, you can splice the damaged section out and use heatshrink to cover the new joints, or if the damage is minor, just use heatshrink, or if the damage is significant, replace the whole wire. For cloth wire, you may have to replace the whole thing, since it can potentially unravel. Otherwise, if the original wire is in good condition, it stays.

#14 17 days ago

The likelihood of getting killed by 120v is extremely small.

#15 17 days ago

Thanks for all the replies, folks, both comedic and helpful. A special thanks, ForceFlow, for all of that practical advice! That's exactly what I was looking to learn. A few comments.

Quoted from RTS:

True in theory, but not in real life. Few people are attempting to fix a machine that is working correctly.
You can easily get a shock from the side rail when these old wires fray and cause shorts.

Exactly. I'm not concerned about the nominal case here. It's what you might get after 80 years of decay, abuse, and repairs by people who didn't know what they were doing. I get that some people like to gamble with 120v, and far be it from me to interfere with their macho, but it's not what I'm looking for.

Quoted from MarkG:

If you look at enough schematics you'll notice that the 120 volt section got smaller and smaller over time. By the late 70s there wasn't much more than a fuse and the power switch.

Definitely. I was just taking a look inside a Godzilla and loved how modern Sterns do it, with the line current carefully isolated, and then standard runs of 48v through CAT 5. My general line of thought here is that the people who made these changes over the decades did it for good reason. I'm not going to try to bring an ancient machine entirely up to modern safety standards, but I'd like to get as close as is practical.

Quoted from EMsInKC:

The likelihood of getting killed by 120v is extremely small.

Glad to hear it, but I'm aiming for zero. What I want in the "extremely small likelihood" category is a nasty shock for an inquisitive 7-year-old visitor or a teen helping me work on them.

Quoted from HowardR:

They weren't available when I had my pinball arcade, but now I recommend plugging in to a Ground Fault (GFCI) outlet, circuit breaker, or power strip.

Ah, great idea! I hadn't thought of this, but it makes perfect sense. My machines are in a room with metal walls, so it's especially easy to accidentally create an alternate ground path, and a GFCI would help with that a lot.

Quoted from ForceFlow:

Limit the situations where you have to work with the game power on.

I think this is the one where I'm going to have to really change some habits. My first machine was an Addams Family, and I maintained it for years by myself. I was pretty cavalier about working under the playfield as long as I wasn't using metal tools. As you say, as long as you're careful, you rarely get bit. But I know that I can't "be careful" for more than about 5 minutes before I get focused on the actual work. With these older ones, I'm going to have to retrain myself to turn things off more often.

Thanks again, everybody! If you don't hear back from me either your advice was excellent or I have become a pioneer in dying from 120v current. Hopefully the former, but if not, please use me as an example.

#16 17 days ago
Quoted from RTS:

True in theory, but not in real life. Few people are attempting to fix a machine that is working correctly.
You can easily get a shock from the side rail when these old wires fray and cause shorts.

I don't agree with that being a common thing; certainly an extreme exception. How would the side rail even touch any wiring?

#17 17 days ago
Quoted from HowardR:

They weren't available when I had my pinball arcade, but now I recommend plugging in to a Ground Fault (GFCI) outlet, circuit breaker, or power strip.

Why? There is no need for this. GFIs trip at 10mA of current. You are far more likely to have a false trip, especially with an em table, than any benefit that a GFI provides. Unless you are in a wet or damp location, there are no need for these devices. They are costly and often cause more trouble than they help.

It's tiring to see well intentioned people over engineering solutions needlessly on here because of their lack of expertise on the subject. I see the same craziness with number of tables per circuit arguments.

#18 17 days ago
Quoted from WalrusPin:

Why? There is no need for this. GFIs trip at 10mA of current. You are far more likely to have a false trip, especially with an em table, than any benefit that a GFI provides. Unless you are in a wet or damp location, there are no need for these devices. They are costly and often cause more trouble than they help.
It's tiring to see well intentioned people over engineering solutions needlessly on here because of their lack of expertise on the subject. I see the same craziness with number of tables per circuit arguments.

Exactly. I recently remodeled our master bath including a heated tile floor. It has to have its own circuit and we hooked it to a circuit that previously ran a jetted tub motor. That kind of circuit requires GFI. In this case it's a GFI breaker. We left the breaker alone even though it was 34 years old, they do go bad, and it isn't necessary for the new application. Sure enough, when the floor thermostat kicked on, it randomly tripped that breaker. I pulled it and went to a normal 20a breaker, no issues since.

For people who want no risk, good luck with that. You ground the shit out of a game and someone falls down the stairs going to play it.

#19 17 days ago
Quoted from WalrusPin:

I don't agree with that being a common thing; certainly an extreme exception. How would the side rail even touch any wiring?

Games over 50 years old with hack repair jobs and band aid solutions, old electricians tape coming off... Something gets bent or cut lowering the pf, loose or broken wires, coil lugs touch metal...

It can all be repaired, but it happens and it's really not exceptional.

#20 17 days ago
Quoted from RTS:

Games over 50 years old with hack repair jobs and band aid solutions, old electricians tape coming off... Something gets bent or cut lowering the pf, loose or broken wires, coil lugs touch metal...
It can all be repaired, but it happens and it's really not exceptional.

I still don't think that this is as common as you are implying, but even still, it would be very easy to see a wire touching or coming near the rails when you lift the playfield to check it out prior to purchase or on first inspection before powering it on. Also, you still aren't talking about line voltage. If someone isn't comfortable doing this then they really shouldn't be working on these machines or at least pay someone to give them an initial once over to know what you are getting into.

The OP seems so guy shy about electrical that I don't think he has any business doing these repairs due to misinformation and fear.

#21 17 days ago
Quoted from WalrusPin:

Electrician here for over 25 years. You are way too concerned about something that isn't a threat, presumably based on a lack of understanding of how these machines work. Nothing is exposed to the player that would be able to shock them. The metal side rails have no contact with the wiring, the flipper buttons are generally plastic, and there's bakelite between the player and the credit switches on the front door (also neither those or the flipper switches are running on line voltage). The only high voltage part you toggle is the on/off switch, which is again buffered by bakelite and you are only touching it with one hand (failure would not cause current to cross your heart). Even without the ground kit, you'd have to have a catastrophic failure of that switch (which if it was a dead short would blow the breaker) and be standing on a conductive surface barefoot with low resistance moist skin.
Pinball tables are not like working on telephone pole or a 480V sub feed. Unless the wood was saturated, there's not enough voltage to conduct through it, even from the line side of the transformer.
The only thing you need to be concerned about is making sure the power cable isn't frayed and is in good working order, make sure that no wires are broken and coming into contact with the line side of the transformer, and don't spray contact cleaner on any part of a machine while it's connected to line voltage.
If, after everything above you are still concerned about the dangers of older machines, please don't work on them and sub it out to a local shop. This is not inherently exclusive to this post, but these forums are rife with comments that indicate a fear of electricity instead of a respect for it. Research and understand basic electrical concepts before working on anything powered and you will he fine.

WalrusPin is right, and a lot of people here have absolutely no clue what they’re talking about, or are repeating concepts they don’t understand.

The only way you’re getting shocked is if you are completely the path to ground.
It’s not magic.
It’s science.
There are things that must happen in order for you to get shocked.

Biggest thing is don’t complete the circuit. I’ve seen master electricians grab the black wire while it’s live and start wiring things up. It’s crazy and it frightened me a bit, but a friend took the time to show me how misguided we all are about electricity.

As posted above, you can grab a 120v life wire with one hand and you won’t get shocked if you’re wearing normal shoes or boots. If you’re standing in a puddle or you’re leaning on the side rail with one hand and touching the wire with the other, you’re gonna have a bad time.

You can think of it like flowing water. If electricity can’t go anywhere, then it’s not going to go anywhere!! If it has a path THROUGH YOU then it’s gonna use it unless it’s properly grounded. Grounding doesn’t magically make electricity go away, it’s still there. It literally just gives the electricity an easier path to travel than you would make, thus you don’t get shocked.

Pinballs have been around for 90 years, and we’ve yet to see a new article about someone getting shocked and dying. You’d think by now these old games would have killed someone if there was any merit to the oft-repeated fears.

#22 17 days ago

Here in the UK, we run on 230v. Obviously, it's stepped down to run on US internals but nevertheless, I'll switch the machine off and pull the plug if working close to the higher voltage circuits. I ground all my games as a matter of course and I share the view that you respect electricity, don't fear it. That said, my house has a 440v 3 phase supply coming in and no way to I go near that. A bridge too far!

#23 17 days ago
Quoted from Isochronic_Frost:

The only way you’re getting shocked is if you are completely the path to ground.
It’s not magic.
It’s science.

It's easy to do if you're not paying attention, though.

I tend to touch or lean on the side of the cab. Especially if games are packed together.

#24 17 days ago

Over here we use earth fault breakers.
If outgoing current is not the same as incoming, it breaks the cirquit.

#25 17 days ago

Electroshock theapy is a side benefit of working on old ems.

#26 17 days ago

Any game that comes in, the first thing I do is check the mains wiring. If it's an old em, I make sure the polarity is correct. Interestingly,
on some factory Gottliebs I've run into, the neutral went to the fuse, switch then the transformer. The hot was just freely floating around. Maybe a built in mouse zapper? I put in about 50 or so games from 50 different sources once and found about 10 or so were wired either with the ground prong taken off or in the case of both grounded and ungrounded plugs, the hot and neutral were swapped. This was in a 3 phase building where chances were, the plug next to the other plug was on a different phase. So, the result was (on a SS game) I'd feel the "tingle" if I touched a side rail of an adjoining machine. In this situation I measured 50V, this was on a digital meter unloaded so who knows what the real voltage was. Once the plugs were corrected no tingles.
But then one Gottlieb EM came in. Played great. Until someone I knew pushed the metal start button and just so happened to have a hand on the pin the next over. He got hit as his body was the path to the next machine. Turned out to be worn out fish paper.
Now imagine Tesla, sitting in a chair in Colorado at his lab with tens of thousands of lightning volts streaming around him. I did read that
he got hit once. Ouch.

#27 17 days ago

Back when I first started- I had a EM (with a 2 prong plug, no ground) next to a newer grounded machine. I reached shirtless between them to grab something I dropped and WHAM! I got shocked right on my nipple.
I always ground machines now… It hurt…

#28 17 days ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

It's easy to do if you're not paying attention, though.
I tend to touch or lean on the side of the cab. Especially if games are packed together.

This is when I accidentally do it. Ground pin missing on one game, game next to it is fine, squeeze in between games and be touching a side rail from each game. A fun little surprise. I have the new cords to stop this, just haven’t put them on yet

#29 16 days ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

It's easy to do if you're not paying attention, though.
I tend to touch or lean on the side of the cab. Especially if games are packed together.

That’s true, done that before. Now I try to keep insulated gloves nearby or remember to keep one hand behind my back as they teach!

#30 15 days ago
Quoted from Isochronic_Frost:

WalrusPin is right, and a lot of people here have absolutely no clue what they’re talking about, or are repeating concepts they don’t understand.
The only way you’re getting shocked is if you are completely the path to ground.
It’s not magic.
It’s science.
There are things that must happen in order for you to get shocked.
Biggest thing is don’t complete the circuit. I’ve seen master electricians grab the black wire while it’s live and start wiring things up. It’s crazy and it frightened me a bit, but a friend took the time to show me how misguided we all are about electricity.
As posted above, you can grab a 120v life wire with one hand and you won’t get shocked if you’re wearing normal shoes or boots. If you’re standing in a puddle or you’re leaning on the side rail with one hand and touching the wire with the other, you’re gonna have a bad time.
You can think of it like flowing water. If electricity can’t go anywhere, then it’s not going to go anywhere!! If it has a path THROUGH YOU then it’s gonna use it unless it’s properly grounded. Grounding doesn’t magically make electricity go away, it’s still there. It literally just gives the electricity an easier path to travel than you would make, thus you don’t get shocked.
Pinballs have been around for 90 years, and we’ve yet to see a new article about someone getting shocked and dying. You’d think by now these old games would have killed someone if there was any merit to the oft-repeated fears.

I've done plenty of electrical work with the power on. Just so long as you don't grab the hot and neutral at the same time you won't get bitten. It's pretty easy to do it accidentally though but even then it's extremely unlikely to kill you.

The people who are putting ground wires all over the inside of EMs are good for a laugh though.

#31 15 days ago

Reddy Killowatt says...

Reddy Killowatt (resized).jpgReddy Killowatt (resized).jpg
#32 15 days ago

bit embarrassing to post this - got my 1st game as a 13 year old in 1978.

was an entirely new world owning my own game. now to try to get it working.

can clearly remember the transformer humming but was unable to get the game to at least light up.

went to pull the fuse out for the transformer, i completed the circuit, hand locked onto the fuse holder.

gave me a fairly large shock and sure learnt my first lesson about pinball ownership.

#33 8 days ago

I got a real zap from the B+ hot focus knob shaft on an oscilloscope where some dope had replaced the shrouded knob with a plain one. 5kv DC.

If I had been leaning on the case with my other hand, I'd have missed the last 40 years...

#34 8 days ago

120V (or our 230V) can kill you.

People keep telling that they survived it - but remember that those who did not survive, will not be announcing it here.

#35 4 days ago

Just wanted to give folks an update on this. I installed the grounding kit from The Pinball Scientist. The instructions were pretty clear. The one mystery was that the old power cord was unpolarized, so I wasn't sure which side of the machine should get the hot side from the new cord. The Mastodon consensus was that it should be the side closest to the fuse, which made sense to me.

It seems to me that the one downside is that, now that there's more grounded surface area, I've made it easier for me to accidentally touch something hot while also touching a ground. Happily, the side rails remain ungrounded as long as the lock bar is off, which my usual case when working on the machine, so I won't zap myself by leaning on a rail and touching something inside. (Thanks to whomever mentioned that as a concern with the grounding kits.) But I've ordered a GFCI extension cord for my workshop spot so that if I do, it won't be a huge problem. Thanks to HowardR for suggesting that.

The machine is now up and running, by which I mean when you try to start a game the score motor runs endlessly, so I'm now I'm on to familiar problems. Thanks all for the help.

#36 4 days ago

Williampietri - Use a meter - the smaller blade is the hot wire, and it should be running to the fuse and thru the on/off switch. The wider blade is neutral. Hopefully, the new cord has the different blade sizes, however, I've seen some old three prong cords that are not polarized.

Glad you feel better about your machine - now, on to troubleshooting!

#37 4 days ago
Quoted from Billc479:

Williampietri - Use a meter - the smaller blade is the hot wire, and it should be running to the fuse and thru the on/off switch. The wider blade is neutral. Hopefully, the new cord has the different blade sizes, however, I've seen some old three prong cords that are not polarized.
Glad you feel better about your machine - now, on to troubleshooting!

What is the point of having a polarized three prong cord?

#38 4 days ago

Consistency

#39 4 days ago

Thanks for the help, @billc479, but I think I was unclear. The old, 2-prong plug that I got with the Teacher's Pet was unpolarized:

danger noodledanger noodle

The new one, the one that came with @thepinscientist's grounding kit, was a normal 3-prong cord. When I was installing that, I wasn't sure which side of the machine was to be hot and which was neutral, as the machine didn't appear to distinguish. But I ended up putting the hot side on the terminal that went straight to the fuse, on the theory that if the fuse blows, I want the smallest amount of hot wire. Obvious in retrospect, but I mention it here just in case others had the same question I did.

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