Well, your seats are lopsided, dude.

There are four jokes of a sexual nature on that poster: "No balls required", "Move it Sausage", "BOOBS" and "BYOBoobs". Two with the butt of the joke being men, and two women. I added a fifth joke, which given the previous four, was entirely fair and in context. But my comments are "gross" and "taken very seriously by some women here". For some reason, no discussion of their jokes. They get a pass. My comments supposedly encourage harassment. Advertising BOOBS does not do this, however.

I didn't cause three women to not attend that tournament. Three women chose to get paranoid and/or over-sensitive at my comments. They're grown-ups. They're responsible for their actions. They're intelligent enough to sense humor and sarcasm. They're intelligent enough to put things in context. They're intelligent enough to at least say, "Hey, wait is he being serious? Oh, he's being a smartass? Okay."

The notion that my silly little comments on my silly little website are powerful enough to divert the course of female participation in pinball is... kind of flattering, actually. hahahaha. But also highly idiotic.

I find it disappointing that you're saying my comments were immature and gross, because you've made many, many similar comments and jokes yourself to and around female players. If the roles were reversed I can't even imagine taking the moral high ground. But it is what it is.

Yeah, there are a lot of things that have been bugging me, not to mention a bit of burnout, and this wasn't the sole reason I've decided to head off into the sunset. But without a doubt, this whole thing is bar none the dumbest thing I've ever personally experienced in pinball. And combined with a lot of other dumb stuff, I ask myself if I should bust my ass yet again to put something on for the scene that has, in its negative aspects, become incrementally more and more ridiculous. And incrementally lost it's goddamn sense of humor. One day you wake up and the answer tips the scales from "yes" to "no".

It's been fun, folks. I mean that truly. I'm going back to being just a plain old pinball player. Despite all the drama and negativity, the scene is better and bigger than ever, and in very capable hands. I look forward to seeing you at a tournament or a show. I will be the creepy guy in the corner wearing a raincoat and sunglasses.

Echa has shown so far that her intentions are good. I encourage her whenever I see her and have let her know that my locations are always available to her for whatever she needs them for. If anyone thinks they want to fill Jonny's shoes, they could learn a lot from Echa.

all womens group for pinball a neutral playing field? I mean if thts what it takes to get you into the male dominant hobby more power to you, but how do you leave your house without feeling "PERVED ON"? seriously! I held my tounge long enough because theres really no way to speak without someone playing the victim card its just sad. Unfourtunatley this is the world we live in now and when you have an all 1 sex group your bound to have extreme views of that nature. Im sure I'll get some flame 4 this but pinball shouldn't devide people into sects<-see that

I don't think pinball is dividing people.

There's a need for a women's-only pinball group. This isn't really up for debate. I know people who attend B&C meetings who wouldn't otherwise go to a league. People have repeatedly expressed their appreciation for this group's existence. If there was no need for the group, then people wouldn't show up, and they certainly wouldn't be so enthusiastic. They are not playing the "victim card" when they point out that certain statements make them uncomfortable because of their life experiences. That's actually the responsible way to communicate to other people that you respect. Some people went way overboard, but so far the only women who have posted in this thread have been among the most rational actors in this debate.

Women feeling uncomfortable around men in a competitive environment isn't a new thing, nor is it an invented construct that people roll out whenever they want to garner sympathy. Women's chess, women's bowling, women's boardgaming groups... all of these exist and they exist for a reason. Listen to people who are in these groups and they'll tell you why they're necessary. You may not share experiences with them, but that doesn't make their needs less valid.

So, some women were made uncomfortable by a joke about being perved on. The joke didn't bother me, but this isn't about me. As men, it's not reasonable for us to tell women how they should feel in male-dominated hobby groups, because we do not share their perspective. I have never been subjected to an unwanted romantic advance when I've been playing in a competitive game (I was subjected to a very wanted one while playing in a fighting game tournament, but that's a different story). Women have to deal with that with enough frequency that even I notice it. Beyond that, they tell us that it happens, and really, who are we to disbelieve them? Do you think Echa is lying when she says that it happened at their meetings? I see no reason to doubt what she says. I've hit on someone in that bar before, so it's certainly not unusual behavior.

Taking umbrage when someone jokes about something that causes you legitimate discomfort isn't extreme, and neither is communicating your offense. That's giving feedback. There are many other problems that came up around how that feedback was delivered and received, but at its core, the message was important and worthy of discussion.

Looking good - I really wanted the F-14 back when I still had my BK2K. I think they would've sat really nice together.

You going for the rollergames?
sfbay.craigslist.org link

101 days until pagg! Woo hoo!

If you don't get the bonus you're looking for and get a jelly-of-the-month club membership don't go all Chevy Chase and kidnapp your boss.

image-189.jpg

I think he's right. Pinball is most definitely dividing people. Besides banning ladies only leagues, I say we ban all kids only tournaments, including juniors at PAPA. If they're tall enough to see over the glass and flip the flippers, I say throw them in with the wolves. Being young is not an excuse for not playing well. Novice and senior divisions should also be eliminated immediately. Why should noobs and old people get a break?

But let's not stop there. B and C division at PAPA should also be eliminated. Everyone plays in A division. And those state championships coming up this weekend? Also exclusionary. Gone. Yes, I really think he's on to something here. Shouldn't be too much trouble to get all these things changed real quick.

NO MORE DIVISION IN PINBALL!!!

I re-read my initial post, and felt like I needed to edit some stuff.

There is a difference between dividing and alienating.

I am glad the discussion is out in the open. Maybe the parties involved, will be able to absorb the thoughts, opinions, and experiences that others have shared, and they will be able to take a step back and do an evaluation of how they handled themselves, and may try and be a bit more understanding and sensative to others. We so not all come from the same backgrounds, male or female, or ethnically, or culturally, even within our own country. We all have had different roads that have brought us to where we are and how we feel in the world, and the pinball community. A bit more acceptance of the fact that others interpret and react differently than your expectations would do a great deal of good for many.

I get how some might find it 'open game' to be crass when the flier and the advertising is just that. But as the saying goes: two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't consider myself a prude, but I sure would not be hanging a poster, or wearing a t-shirt that said 'move over sausage fest'...or whatever the saying in question is...it's just tacky. I am all for cleaver innuendos and witty back-handed humerous comments, and references, but to me that doesn't fit the bill, and neither does 'perving out'.

We are all mostly adults here, and most of us can enjoy a bit of 'battle of the sexes' type humor, but we have to an ackowledge that it is a subject that has a thin line of what crosses into 'too far', and based on our individual experiences that line is different for everyone.

we'll said caligirl. I think that a seperation of sexes within a comunity will only exasperate this and cause more dividing. Im not saying there arnt pervs or feminatzis this is the bay area If you want to single yourselves out regardless of sex ethnicity, religion there is going to be ignorance we as a pinball comunity 1st can only try to bring humanity together idealizations aside or enjoy playing that 4player EM alone and use those extra reels for parts!

The ladies in question here regularly play on location. Short of actually operating games themselves, there's no better way for them to support the hobby. Period. Where do you get off questioning them? How exactly do you support the hobby and the community?

I always thought pinball brought people together with a common bond.

Steve

To be clear, I am not saying that there is not a need for seperate leagues, based on gender/race/creed/sexual preferences/etc. As mentioned above such divisions, specificly men/women, have been occurring in many areas for eon s...Masons. Elks. Sororities. Fraternities. Boy Scouts. Girl Scouts. Men's sports. Womens sports.....etc etc. Just because there are times we prefer to spend time bonding in groups with people we can connect with more closely because of similarities and center the bonding around a particular activity doesn't mean it is wrong, nor is it somehow detrimental to a larger 'community'. Proving people the option of being part of a group in which they feel more comfortable can, and will encourage more people to get involved that otherwise wouldn't.

I can see where such separations could lead to larger chasyms between groups, if under poor leadership, but that is a bit of a defeating mentality to think that that is always going to be the case.

As I understand, B&C is relatively new...and as far as I know, the other leagues are not specifically male only...although they are predominately male....just as the hobby is predominantly male. So time should be given before people jump to conclusions that having a seperate league promotes a bigger division in the community.

Because a group chooses to be exclusive to one particular thing (gender, religion, age, orientation, whatever), one can not automatically assume that that group somehow dislikes the other group(s) or the larger community as a whole.

Having seperate Women's bowling leagues has not been detrimental to the bowling community. Having seperate women's teams in sports has not been detrimental...having men's knitting cirles has not been detrimental to the knitting community...etc etc..so how does one come to the conclusion that having seperate organizations is bad?

I understood. I edited out his spin on what you said earlier that I quoted. Sorry about that. You're making some excellent points. Thanks for posting.

Female integration in pinball is too complicated of a topic for Internet knee jerking to solve.

The real controversy here is that PracticalSteve is hinting at selling F-14. You're never going to find another game like it.

Yeah, lets just brush it under the rug...that's the proper way to handle it...

Obviously there are people who want to discuss it, particularly because or recent events involving members of the 'Nor Cal Pinhead' community, which is what this thread is for.

Just as you may not care to engage in the dialogue on the matter, there are others who could care less about an F-14...

As someone who lives in an estrogen-fest household , I think an all female pinball league is a great idea. Maybe someone can talk my daughters into joining it, I think they'd have fun.

Steve

I keep seeing reference to a "double standard". Well there definitely is one, but it's much more than "women get to make dick jokes and men don't." Most men have never been in a position where their boss is hitting on them, and how they react to that will affect their career path. Not to mention having to wonder if you are valued for anything more than your looks. Most men have never had to worry if the woman who's been leering at them all night might follow them to their car as they leave the bar and physically overpower them. And in part because of that, many men seem unaware of that their sex-based jokes can trigger a woman's spidey-sense.

It's the same reason black people can use the "n-word" while others shouldn't - they're trying to take the terrible oppressive, sickening power out of the word. I realize this might seem like a double standard to some, but it makes perfect sense to me. The poster's dick jokes was a funny way of saying "we understand why some of you girls are uncomfortable going to these events, but we're making this a safe place." Following that up with an invitation for guys to attend so they can "perv some chicks" not only undoes this, it makes it sound like a much more hostile place.

But I have no doubt that Jonnyo only had the best intentions (as would anyone who's knows him or what he's done for our community), I believe he only said that because he thought he was riffing off the humor that was in the original poster. He simply didn't understand why that humor was there in the first place, what its purpose was.

This whole thread makes me so sad - a bunch of good people trying to have fun and community, then a misunderstanding that made all the hard work of two of them backfire and increased the gulf between two groups of pinball lovers. It's not anyone's fault, it's just a lack of understanding. Everyone had good intentions. I hope everyone can give everyone else the benefit of a doubt and get past this.

Call me impatient, but I agree that it's time to change the subject. Who's excited for Pinagogo?

1s008i.gif

The 100-day countdown begins!
100!
-mof

Excited? Look at these nipples!

I enjoy Pinagogo very much.

Yeah, let's just publicly make assumptions about people. Particularly someone who "engaged" the conversation a page earlier. Maybe "knee jerk" was more accurate than I thought?

edit: took out that last part. Was being a jabbing prick.

This happened to me 20+ years ago and I married her.
Smart assertive women who know what they want are hard to find, clingy needy jealous and insecure are a dime a dozen.
Choose wisely.

I'm delighted that worked out for you. But I don't really see what it has to do with this discussion - it's still never happened to MOST men, and it can be anywhere from annoying to traumatic to career-ending for women.

Steve, I meant no disrespect for your sale, and wish you nothing but the best for it. My point was obviously missed...that what is important to discuss for some is not just as important for everyone....it is a PUBLIC forum.

I did not open yesterday's dialogue on the matter. I had thought the subject had died...but obviously for others it had not. I responded to some less than stellar, unfounded comments that somehow having a women's league is bad for the community. Were my comments a waste of space...uh clearly no, at least one person was man enough to acknowledge a change of heart. Did I expect it to change the community or the world as a whole...uh no, I am not an idiot.

I still enjoy Pinagogo....very much.

2014graphic.jpg

A couple things:

1) Pin-a Go Go 2013 just got written up in Pinballnews.com: http://www.pinballnews.com/shows/pagg2013/index.html

2) To bridge this battle of the sexes, I propose a tournament that I will put on (my first!) if folks are interested. I will have to check with IFPA on legalities to have it count with WPPRs.

Let's call it: Split-Flipper Mixed-Gender Team Tommy Dollars*?

* Rules:
- each team is one male and one female
- teams can choose which flipper is which person, but they have to switch every ball
- extra balls can be played but would incur a switch on flippers
- knockout format (double elim maybe?)
- donation of a portion of proceeds would go to First Exposures (a mentoring program I am a part of that works with youth and mentors through photography) http://firstexposures.org/
- we can pair you up if you don't have a team (if there's enough balance in genders)

Thoughts?

I will just addend the for sale thread.
Oh, group hug for all. See you at pagg.

Yes, this is a must. Ok, I could not find my for sale at pagg thread. So I started a new pagg thread. My threads are worse than my car keys. See you at pagg.

bump for pinball goodness and a drama free night.

Wait a sec -- you guys forgot how to use the googles?
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pagg-2014-for-sale-thread
-mof

It is easy, just click on Activity button once you are in the Forum Main Page. It will list all Topics that you have looked at and posted too.

Great idea!

Just a note on the WPPRs. You can't get WPPRs for team tournaments (otherwise a strong player can pull up a poor player). Doesn't mean they are not fun! It's the same reason the East Bay City Rumble tournaments don't give out WPPRs either.

Fun fact: My first pinball tournament was the 2012 East Bay City Rumble.