And yet in our small Alien community it happened literally overnight.

No "reference documents". None needed in today's world. This isn't 1980

And there are 10's of thousands of Stern pinball machines out there.

It's hard to even believe this is being discussed as if the pinball world was potentially coming to an end because of a "node board".

It's great that happened, but it isn't likely to happen with everything. From what I've seen the majority of the work on Alien has been in good faith, and not for profit. That can't be said about nearly any other machine that has replacement parts. For the majority there has to not only be the know how, tools and money, there has to be someone who actually wants to do it -- which is usually driven by money. Let's also consider that most of the people who have an Alien have a personal interest in keeping it going AND have a lot of money invested already.

I literally just got an email from one of the 3 BM66 owners in NZ, he has an LE, and one of his main nodes has died. The NZ distributors basically don’t want to know about it.

HE HAS A $17,000 NZD PAPERWEIGHT!

My advice was to complain to the NZ consumer authorities and demand repair or refund. We have strong consumer protection here in NZ.

That’s 3 Spike pins in our tiny NZ community in less than a month that no longer work.

I’m just reporting the facts. I am not scaremongering or wishing ill will on anyone. This is what is happening.

rd

He should be covered under the CGA you are right unless they try and weasel out under some sort of commercial use loophole, if it exists. I wonder if it will make coin cascade rethink pricing if they have to cover longer term repairs? Simon had no help at all from coin cascade with his dead node board. Stern wasn't that helpful either until he directly emailed Gary who responded. He was willing to pay for it too mind you!

Is there a warranty? Yes

The NZ distributor doesn't want to deal with it? wtf

I don't know what else to say other than you, me and everybody else keep buying Stern pinball games in growing numbers.

Those are the facts.

Can we at least agree that Stern isn't STUPID? That they aren't going to say F you and your node boards. "No more support for you because we don't want to ever sell our Stern pins in the future". Its just crazy and unrealistic.

I have ZERO concern here in the US about getting support on any Stern game i've purchased.

As for route operators, MUCH more reliable and long lasting than any other manufacturer out there. Period.

That’s just disgraceful service.

Or - lack of.

rd

If a person believes there are no current SPIKE issues, awesome. I will not argue with anyone any further.

I offered my personal experience observing the modern era of SPIKE games since itself initial development in 2010, starting implementation in 2012-2013 with Stern "The Pin" titles, changes of use in commercial SPIKE 1 systems in 2015, advancements into SPIKE 2 systems in 2016, and at the verge of SPIKE 3 changes in the near future. Please do not misinterpret that I believe these SPIKE systems are going to "spontaneously combust" or other such nonsense, as that is not what I ever stated in terms of the design. Nor, am I speaking in pure reflection of pinball operational systems of past manufacturers which is not a representation of my discussion either. One major concern is being able to conduct proper diagnostics of a problem after a failure, not rely a basic message on screen or cross fingers by conducting "swapatronics" on a node board and hope the game will work afterwards. Presently, this is often impossible, or more guesswork. That is not how a commercial quality industrial product is supposed to be designed.

If a person listens to the interview, they may learn something useful. Good fortune.

2sh4bx.jpg

A sincere and honest question here...what is that percentage rate based on actual numbers? WhiteStar/Sam vs. Spike 2 (not just your experience, but industry wide)?

As a Spike 2 game owner, I'm curious.

I’m not the distributor, so I can’t answer that.

All I can tell you is, I’m not aware of a SAM board failure in my circle (news would soon travel in our community) and I know of multiple SPIKE failures.

rd

A poll would be interesting, but doubt if the results would be valid - far too many variables.

(An aside as a former Maytag owner: what killed them was black mold that wouldn't go away, no matter what, and Maytag's generous "warranty" offer of $50 or $100 off _another_ Maytag.)

TL;DR
My FGy SAM boardset is going strong at over 10 years and thousands of plays... matter of fact, I have never blown a fuse, I have factory Stern fuses still in my machine. I have looked at a node board up close and personal. They are way under engineered, they need to beef up trace width at least. These things are fragile and prone to inter-layer trace breaks due to vibrations. They should be mounted away from repetitive shock sources like solenoids, and be vibration and shock isolated. Techs are reporting replacement boards with trace repairs, and jumper wire bypasses on brand new boards. The last time I saw issues like this was when they were putting out some of the densest packed networking cards I used to repair at the factory. These were 6 layer boards that had both SMD and through hole components. The inner layer trace shorts and opens plagued us because they spec-ed the traces too thin and the boards were so expensive, we sent boards out that we had to rewire with jumper wire just to get working. We tested out network cards by plugging them into the backplane, if you twisted the board in the slot and it kept working, you sent it out as long as it passed electronic screening. If it stopped working, you pulled it out and sent it back for rework. This went on until they redesigned the boards. Someone will start a rework service that takes any Stern IP chips off your bad boards and solder them into beefier replacement boards if the bootloader code is and remains proprietary. Thats what has happened historically in the computer industry.

No "reference documents" (schematics) needed . . . OKAY! Stuff NEVER breaks out of warranty. I can promise you that LOTR will likely be my only Stern (especially after a NIB GB purchase) in my collection. If i ever buy NIB it will be a JJP. You are correct, there is no "coming to an end" of pinball because of folks making blind purchases (more money than brains comes to mind), but getting bent over by a manufacturer that gives no schematics to support said games is pathetic. Hell, Data Easts (that many snobs like to shit on) give schematics and part listings. Enjoy your spikes.

Both Ken and I had transistors go on SAM's but it is the same as on a WPC, $1 in parts, 5 minutes and it's done. Both games were on location. I haven't heard of any others though. I definitely know of more Spike failures then Sam and cost wise its not even close. One of the CC games in wellington was down for a while with a node board apparently.

Oh yeah! My Ironman blew a flipper transistor once, forgot about that. Replaced both the flipper transistors with the beefier versions and no problems since.

But I can’t recall a whole SAM board becoming unserviceable.

rd

Hey RD,

I am sure that you probably already know this.. All the guys at PinballLife can help you with a replacement node board (your mate will have to pay for it) to get the game up and running again. The support is there, you just have to pay for it.

Yeah - but if there is an underlying issue with another board, or something else, you plug in your new $400 (NZ) board and it blows up soon after.

rd

Ice, you surely can see why this is a concern to people?

Most pinowners like to kid themselves that the hobby doesn't cost them much, that games are investments, bla bla bla.

Well, if the main CPU board goes and then you have to spend $1000 for a replacement, that may mean a month of the game being down.

That sure is a slap in the face, and a huge reality check for your 'cheap' hobby!

My GB has started playing up. Could be a node board shitting itself.

Got to wait for the definitive answer on the diagnosis but if it is, chalk another up. Bought NIB in Nov 2016, has approx 200-300 plays on it (not sure if exact figure but not much). If it’s the node board, I’ll be cracking into the consumers act for CC to get it fixed. Small claims if I have to. If not just for the principle.

Can’t remember the exact wording but goods have to be expected to last a certain amount of time according to the substantial dollar value attached (or words to that effect). 200 plays on a 13K machine doesn’t qualify if you ask me.

NZ do have a wicked CGA here. My PS3 shat itself after 18 months, outside of the warranty. I quoted the act to them and they replaced it, so it’s definately something that stands strong for the consumer.

Yes! I just fixed my TSPP with my very limited pinball repairing knowledge. On the other hand, my Ironman is still rock solid. I hope they survived after my pinball meeting.

It's ashame the thread over the last few pages has just been noise because someone doesn't have the awareness to respect:

"It is better to remain silent at the risk of being thought a fool, than to talk and remove all doubt of it."

Haven't they done that already without providing cheap aftermarket replacements or schematics?

I don't buy the obsolete theory. What is probably closer to the truth is they invested in the Spike/Node Board system and are married to it. They don't want to invest the capital in a next gen so soon. Until it hits the gross sales line, we're talking to the hand.

I think it's crazy to think that Stern will be held accountable for their actions. They're the only pinball manufacturer that is producing at large scale. They are the backbone of the industry. If Joe Schmo wants a pinball game, it's probably going to be a Stern because of price, theme, and (most importantly) availability. Sure pinheads are aware of Spooky, JJP, Chicago Games, etc... but when you go to most pinball dealerships or websites, the majority of the inventory are going to be Sterns. People don't wanna wait months or even years for a game. People who are new to the hobby will buy Sterns. Distributors will keep selling Sterns because of the profit margin. Heck, even a lot of pinheads are hypocrites with Stern. As soon as they tease a single theme that they are fond of, they open their wallet and forget all previous transgressions.

This is the closest we're getting to another golden age for pinball. Stern is going to make as much money as possible before the economy tanks and they go back into hibernation.

But you're clearly someone with deep pockets, so you obviously doesn't care about expensive replacement parts or serviceability. Let the rest of us pinball plebeians be concerned

I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to this electronic stuff but has there been any known reasons why these boards have failed? If it was just a need for fuses, couldn't those be added by the aftermarket?

Regardless, I don't get all the complaining. I don't know of any paperweight Spike pins and seriously doubt there will be any time soon. Sure, it will be costly to fix but guess what - they are costly to buy in the first place. Complaining that you have to buy a $400 board to fix your $8000 pin is the very definition of first world problems. Nobody forces you to buy a pin and nobody needs one. It's a luxury, niche item. The simple solution to avoid all these issues is to not buy a Stern Spike pin. If you got own one and worried about costly repairs, sell it. Problem solved.

Never understood this mentality. "oh you spent how much? You shoudln't mind spending an arm and a leg to keep it going!"...that is so...smh.

The concerns, and real life scenarios have been said in these pages. It's more about the length of time and hassle to get those boards repaired for one little .50 cent part needing replaced but costing hundreds instead. Sure not everyone is going to see it, that doesn't make it any less of a concern when you are spending that much money up front. You are right about one thing though, more people will just not buy those systems over time if they prove to be unreliable and costly to fix.

We'll get back to this later.

Ummm...that's what every. single. node. board. thread. here is trying to figure out. Nobody has a clue what is going on with these things and why so many are having problems.

I know Kiss had fuses on the node boards. Ghostbusters does not. So somewhere along the line Stern decided they aren't needed. The same goes for the HV coil cutoff switch at the coin door. That's been removed too.

Had a GB go down with a node 8 comm failure for 1 month on location. That's about $600 in lost revenue. It's a real thing. Took that long to talk to Stern and get them to send a new one from the distributor. It was out of warranty.

Node 0 is $900. Node 1 $200. Node 8 and 9 are $300 each. Node 8a, 8b, 8c, 9a and 9b are $150 each. Sometimes one event can take out multiple nodes. If they all went out... $2,500. I've not seen that happen yet.

Wow...just wow!

Nevermind.

Dumb dumb dumb. This is so ignorant it's almost amusing.

Spike is sorta like the Gottlieb system 1. Until replacement MPUs were designed, all of the games were close to un-fixable. The Rockwell spider chips had internal programing and the only supplies were on other boards.

Overall I've had good luck with Spike games and they've been pretty reliable. Below is what I've personally operated or what I've regularly serviced that was on location. I've also noted the board related issues I've had by platform with the number of games operated in parenthesis.

DE (2)
- 74HCT154 replaced (22 year old game at the time)
- Proactively replaced the 100uF caps on the power supplies

Whitestar (4)
- No board issues

SAM (10)
- No board issues
- Service bulletin exchange for the magnet board on Metallica Premium

Spike (8)
- SD card bad (technically not a board issue, but an issue inherent to Spike)
- No backbox sound, amp failed, warranty return CPU board for replacement
- Flaky node board 8, unresolved. Appears to be connector related, probably because the board is so close to the left flipper.
- Service bulletin to add caps on Spike 1 game node boards
- Service bulletin to secure node board diodes on Spike 1/2 games

So in this small comparison, I've had more issues with Spike than the other platforms. Not many, and you probably can't really draw any great conclusions. But when you throw in the lack of schematics on Spike, the difficulty of servicing Spike boards, and the lack of compatibility with Spike, I don't feel as good about it as DE, Whitestar, and SAM. So in my experience, although the DE, Whitestar, and SAM games are much older than the Spike games, they have been just as reliable if not more reliable.

You're right! It sure sounds like Gottlieb System 1 all over again.

I thought you would be all over it.

If your mate wants to sell it how it is please let me know!

I am sure you will get it going for him.

Of course, common sense!

A lot of guys must be holding out for a Queen pinball machine because we got a lot of "drama Queens" up in here!

We got bigger things to worry about like "global warming" right? Any of you folks live up north?

Oooooooo.... I live up North, Ice. It's friggin' cold yo!

Damn it looks BRUTAL!

Where would I find this info? I’ll have to fix this I guess.

It would be nice if stern had some dealer network, where they can send important information on to the customers. Like how car companies send an auto recall notice. I would have never know about this problem.

Let me get this straight. You think "global warming" is some kinda conspiracy involving millions of players (because you're being flip about it in this thread). You do that while simultaneously saying that people are crazy to think that the few people that run Stern would purposely make an inferior product to help with future sales...

It's like the people who think the government could organize the massive hoax of landing on the moon, but were also too incompetent to handle covering up a simple B&E at a hotel.

Bravo on your gold medal in mental gymnastics. One less event for Tokyo to worry about next year.

There is a start for you.

https://sternpinball.com/support/service-bulletins/
https://sternpinball.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Stern-SB190revB.pdf
https://sternpinball.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Stern-ShakerMotorAdvisory.pdf

and

https://sternpinball.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Stern-SB189.pdf

Weird. I can’t find anything for GoT. It’s a spike 1 game, and has node 8 and 9 in it. I wonder if it’s required, and what’s changed?

-3 this morning near Boston

If GOT is not on the list, I would not do anything.

Stern expect us to check the service bulletin section of their website and then go to your distro to get the parts if required.

Two additional node board failure examples in just the past 24 hours.

SPIKE home use game, Aerosmith, fails for unknown reasons outside warranty. SPIKE 2 system.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/node-board-failure-how-common/page/4#post-4816120

Another, based on trough board issues, Ghostbusters. Another SPIKE 2. Most likely related to vibrational problems.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/ghostbusters-error-can-t-locate-pinballs-#post-4815844
2skzsn (resized).jpg

The bootloader is stock, according to Stern (according to my distributor). Is there any evidence to the contrary?

When I just Sioux falls Wednesday for a client meeting it was -50 wind chill. When I landed on Phoenix it was 70. That is 120 degree difference! Like going from 80 to 200

It was -24 (without windchill) for 2 days this week here. Saturday it is supposed to be around 55. Crazy weather.

These node board failures totally suck for the owners. But, what are we supposed to do with this information? Two out of how many?

Here's a simple fact: electronics fail. It's a fact of life. Pointing out a handful from an internet forum that represents a sliver of pinball buyers/users doesn't help. You could dig up complaints or detailed accounts of product failures for nearly anything on the internet. But it's all meaningless unless you have context. We also don't know why the failure occurred. Until we understand that, the information is still meaningless. And guessing its "vibrational" related is a total shot in the dark guess.

You claim to be expert, knowing enough to sound the alarm bells with some very bold and damning statements... but there's practically zero context or verifiable background information to support what you're saying. "Because I said so" or "I know from talking to others" isn't enough, IMO. We're not talking about impression-based assessments of gameplay or art. We're talking about the evisceration of a company's platform. If it's really a problem, show the beef in the burger. Has anyone taken working boards and found an immediate (non-invasive) way of causing a failure? If vibrations are the culprit, has anyone shown this through a test? Has anyone analyzed the system's software (because your buddy read an email by someone that said they've looked at the code and it's well designed)?

Not sure I agree with you here. Why should the burden of proof be with us customers? It’s time for Stern to step up and tell us what we can expect mid to long term with Spike-based games. Sure electronics fail. I want to know how I can deal with such failures 5-10 years from now.

Well because Stern, or any company, isn't going to give you that info, that's silly.
The problem with the entire discussion is everything is unknown. If we had the schematics then we'd know how the boards work and if we could get replacement parts to fix them. As of now we don't.

that is why right to repair laws are needed and parts / docs can't not be locked into an dealer only network as well.

That’s not true. Carmakers, for instance, guarantee the availability of spare parts for a defined length of time. Parts are usually available for much longer. As a customer I have some means of estimating how long I can keep the product operational. Household appliance manufacturers typically have authorized repair dealers. There are many examples.