No Speech on Fire! System11a

Yes, but the 6821 is pumping data to both the DAC and CVSD, and I'm not seeing any of those outputs pulsing at all. P19 on the 6821 (labeled Speech) stays Low as do P10-17, which all seem to be the DAC inputs.

All audio from the sound board is working fine, and no audio is working from the MPU board. I said "speech", because I'm not sure what else the MPU is generating if anything. I am getting sound effects, but those are coming from the sound board: verified by removing the interconnect.

One more thing I didn't mention, pressing the sound button on the MPU, just repeats the 'Twing' sound in a never-ending loop.

Since the problem seems to be before the DAC, I think it makes sense to try swapping out the RAM. Given I need a new 6802 anyway, can I replace with one with RAM onboard (6808?) and not need the RAM chip? I don't see anything in the wiki about jumpering for that.

#4 3 years ago

^^^

PINTEC

Pinside member

Chicago, IL

6y 51,550 513

Remove IC 22 to check if there is the same problem (sound no speech and twing with test button)

#5 3 years ago

???

HighVoltage

Note, sometimes I press the sound button and get no reaction at all. Also, sometimes at power on I get some brief white noise garbage for a couple of seconds.

Do you mean U22? I removed it, still got the Twings. Then put it back, and didn't get anything, but it was unreliable like that before.

#6 3 years ago

^^^

PINTEC

Pinside member

Chicago, IL

6y 51,550 513

OP
Quoted from HighVoltage:
Note, sometimes I press the sound button and get no reaction at all. Also, sometimes at power on I get some brief white noise garbage for a couple of seconds.
Do you mean U22? I removed it, still got the Twings. Then put it back, and didn't get anything, but it was unreliable like that before.

No Change when Ic 22 Removed:

Suspect IC 22 not being read by cpu:

Check Chip Enable signal Ic22 Pin 20
Replace U7 Decoder

Recheck for speech phrase when sound test is depressed.

#7 3 years ago

???

HighVoltage

Pin 20 is pulsing. Checking the decoder inputs, they are pulsing, but the pattern seems suspect, not changing like on a working board during sound test.

I'm going to order sockets and replacements for the decoders and RAM and give those a shot, not sure what else to try.

#8 3 years ago

^^^

PINTEC

Pinside member

Chicago, IL

6y 51,550 513

Check all other address and data lines are present at U22
Address 14 goes thru U6 before it arrives at pin 27 may be missing or corrupt.
Ram should be ok with processor being able to run the program and produce sounds.

#9 3 years ago

KLB

kbliznick

Firebird Pinball

Phoenix, AZ

11y 63,900 2,438 5 4

I have never had to go into the decoders or anything behind the ROM/RAM on a system 11 MPU based speech/sounds. Not to say that that is not the problem here. I have fixed missing sounds or speech on nearly 100 of these boards and it has always been the same short list of bad components in my experience

#1 most common by far is Bad 1458 op amps, probably 50% of the time. U4 disables only MPU based speech U5 disables MPU based sounds and MPU based speech.
#2 is bad RAM
#3 is bad 10uf cap at C8 or C15 but each one of those will only disable the mpu based speech or mpu based sound effects
#4 is either a bad DAC or bad CVSD but just like the caps they will only disable half
#5 is bad ROMS

Never have I had to do the U9 or U10 6821 or any of the decoders. And don't recall how many 6802's as that is so easily tested by swapping it with the main 6802.

#10 3 years ago

BTF

PinballManiac40

Pinside+ Frequent

@highvoltage, in the other thread you mentioned this CPU board has Hitachi 6802 CPU chips. The board also has all Hitachi 6821 chips? I don't see you mentioning it so far in this thread.

I have a pile of failed Hitachi 6802 and 6821 chips out of several different system 11 boards. Seems they are not as reliable as Motorola chips.

#11 3 years ago

???

HighVoltage

ebay.com link: Lot of 4 HYUNDAI HY6116ALP 10 2Kx8 Static RAM 100ns DIP 24 Low Power

I ran the Leon's sound test ROM and it's flaky whether it comes back from the RAM test or not and continues the heart beat. Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't, so seems very likely that's it.

These from EBay should do, right? Will update when I've got them installed.

#12 3 years ago

BTF

PinballManiac40

Pinside+ Frequent

Seems like the right one you have there.

If you were upgrading your MPU U25 to NVRAM, this is this could had been moved to the sound section as it is a 6116 RAM in both locations.

#13 3 years ago

???

HighVoltage

Now you tell me! Yeah, that sounds like a good way to go about it.

#14 3 years ago

BTF

PinballManiac40

Pinside+ Frequent

Haha...sorry. I did not get that feeling the RAM was on the list to go after next.

#15 3 years ago

???

HighVoltage

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pinbot-no-speech-#post-5053502

Installed the new 2116, and that was it, the speech is back.

Thanks to PINTEC for pointing out there's a test ROM for the sound section, I didn't realize that.

System 11 sound set up varies quite a bit in the revisions and are kind of goofy in some incarnations. kbliznick summarizes it here:

Also provides some descriptions of the operation way back here:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.games.pinball/PpX0PGtkb30

Another thing I did was work back on the circuit to narrow down the problem. I hooked up a mini piezo speaker to the analog audio line of the amp and then the DAC. Yes, if you hold your ear right next to the speaker, you can actually listen to the DAC output too. It's an easy way to narrow down which side of the circuit the problem is on.

Pretty strange that I had the main CPU and sound RAM fail at basically the same time, since the last time I had the machine on. Also strange that the Motorola CPU worked fine when the board is configured for Hitachi. I put the jumper back for Motorola anyway.

3 years later

#16 15 days ago

RFH

Roverius

Pinside member

HighVoltage

Reading this post to see if i could repair the speech issue. It is also a Fire!

I wonder what you mean by "replaced the 2116"

#17 15 days ago

ZDG

gutz

Pinside member

10y 78,550 1,745 28

Quoted from Roverius:
HighVoltage
Reading this post to see if i could repair the speech issue. It is also a Fire!
I wonder what you mean by "replaced the 2116"

RAM chip = bad memory

#18 15 days ago

RFH

Roverius

Pinside member

gutz thanks, aint that a 6116?

Anyway, i maight replace mine with a nvram.
i get issues writing to memory, "memory protect" ore something in that direction.

Thx

#19 15 days ago

BTF

PinballManiac40

Pinside+ Frequent

Quoted from Roverius:
gutz thanks, aint that a 6116?
Anyway, i maight replace mine with a nvram.
i get issues writing to memory, "memory protect" ore something in that direction.
Thx

U25 is for the game RAM that you would want to install the NVRAM, not in the sound section.

The sound Section RAM he replaced was because of the speech failure, which is what this repair thread was about So happens, both RAM on this board are 6116 and compatible chips.

#20 15 days ago

RFH

Roverius

Pinside member

Quoted from PinballManiac40:
U25 is for the game RAM that you would want to install the NVRAM, not in the sound section.
The sound Section RAM he replaced was because of the speech failure, which is what this repair thread was about So happens, both RAM on this board are 6116 and compatible chips.

Hmm, could this be a different soundboard? or probably a different sram. Schematics state a 2016 ram.
IMG_20240408_203024 (resized).jpg

#21 15 days ago

ZDG

gutz

Pinside member

10y 78,550 1,745 28

Quoted from Roverius:
Hmm, could this be a different soundboard? or probably a different sram. Schematics state a 2016 ram.
[quoted image]

The sticker on the processor has Fire game number 556 on it (unless that chip was swapped into a different board). You have pictured the sound board, this thread is about the sound section on the MPU board. The OP replaced the sound ram on the mpu board to restore their speech. Your memory protect circuit is on the MPU board and is activated by the large switch that is activated by opening/closing the coin door.

#22 15 days ago

RFH

Roverius

Pinside member

Quoted from gutz:
The sticker on the processor has Fire game number 556 on it (unless that chip was swapped into a different board). You have pictured the sound board, this thread is about the sound section on the MPU board. The OP replaced the sound ram on the mpu board to restore their speech. Your memory protect circuit is on the MPU board and is activated by the large switch that is activated by opening/closing the coin door.

I am getting confused, the topic mentions a Williams Fire system 11a board, precise the board i have. I do have the same problem, hence my responses here.

So, this should be U23 probably? It is a 58725P. I might solder this out and test this.

Don't pay attention to the removed roms, i had issues when they were installed.

IMG_20240406_152243 (resized).jpg

IMG_20240408_094133 (resized).jpg

Post last edited 15 days ago: “added info”

#23 14 days ago

RFH

Roverius

Pinside member

U23 ram tested good, must be something else :/

IMG_20240409_104215 (resized).jpg

1 week later

#24 6 days ago

KLB

kbliznick

Firebird Pinball

Phoenix, AZ

11y 63,900 2,438 5 4

Quoted from Roverius:
U23 ram tested good, must be something else :/[quoted image]

So back up a little bit. What exactly is missing from your game. Just the speech is missing or are you missing the sound effects too? When you conduct the sound test in the diagnostics does it produce ANY of the 8 sounds or none?

#25 5 days ago

RFH

Roverius

Pinside member