There is a MASSIVE amount of work required to add an LCD.

Easy for JJP as their machines are basically based on a PC - just plug that monitor straight in.

At least Stern pinballs are Embedded controller based. We will see what the future brings when these PC based machines start acting up......watch this space.

Personally, I am glad to hear it. Not a fan after seeing WOZ.

Maybe you can clarify what the real-world difference in lifespan and overall desirability is between an embedded controllar board with a processor, video and audio capabilities, USB, network and solid state storage... and a PC motherboard with a processor, video and audio capabilities, USB, network and solid state storage?

Maybe if they could just upgrade the display like a Color DMD, it wouldn't look so bad.

WOZ suffers from it because there is no backglass.

You are a member on Aussie pinball.com
Mike has explained himself there

Took a while to find something, but searching for his posts with the word "embedded" it in simply seems to reveal that he doesn't like the overall reliability of PCs (but what about them is more or less reliable? I've got PCs from the mid-90's still working, and it's not like embedded control boards in pinballs NEVER EVER fail), or the fact that they become "obsolete" so quickly.

But once we're down to using surface mount components on both and have eliminated moving parts on the PC side, I don't see why one is inherrantly less reliable than the other, simply because it can run x86 code and is called a "PC"... or why in the distant future you should somehow find it easier to locate a specialized and difficult-to-repair board used in maybe 50,000 pinballs, versus a non-specialized and equally as difficult-to-repair board used in probably hundreds of millions of Intel-compatible systems.

The main problem with PC-based systems is when they use highly customized hardward (like P2K) that are prone to failure and incompatible with newer standards. But JJP is using nothing but a single surface-mount USB-compatible board, which will surely be no more difficult to work with in the distant future than an entirely proprietary standard.

There is nothing less reliable about pc style components. Both pc and embedded CPU systems have processors, ram, some sort of bus, and storage. A PC is generally thought to be an off the shelf full computer. But it doesn't need to be.

I will be very disappointed if Star Trek does not have a LCD and I will not buy it,Maybe someone will make another Star wars with an LCD when the movie comes out,I will be waiting.

The LCD rumor always seemed like wishful thinking.

I think no LCD from stern is a good thing. WOZ looks hideous with that big black screen on it and having a TV above the playfield when playing is too distracting IMO.

They should go the Color DMD route or LCD the size of a DMD or larger like a Sega DMD like someone else said. Smaller is better I don't want to watch TV when playing pinball thanks.

I agree on Sega size LCD or slightly larger.

Looks like Hobbit will be my next pin. Wanted a Star Trek with LCD. Stern disappoints once again !

Your statement is based on what factual evidence? How do you know the next title will come with DMD vs LCD?

The LCD on Wizard of Oz looks like a redemption game. Not sure if anyone missed that boat. Regardless it is their first pin and I would love to see how much better Hobbit will be.

No LCD please. Colour dmd for the win.

Color DMD is an LCD. It's actually an LG LCD panel just interpreting dots.

Yeah I was thinking the same thing , but then I thought he was probally refering to a 1 color, color DMD . Like Avengers Hulk has a green one , and there are blue ones out there and a few other ones too .

I prefer the classic look of a DMD, but if done well any display type will be fine.

Man I must be old , the classic look of a DMD .

Have you locked a ball on WOZ yet? In real life when you do the animation is really cool. Before playing it I had only seen it on YouTube, and that didn't do it justice. A color DMD would look like a dinosaur next to it.

Can any of you old-timers help us remember what it was like when DMD first came on the scene? What was the feedback from the enthusiast crowd?

Interesting RGP quotes from 1991/1992 about new games with DMD displays:

The dot matrix display was the big thing that got me looking for this game.
I'm afraid, however, to say that I'm not sure I like it. Sure, it looks
neat and has all sorts of possibilities, but as a professor once said
(about dot-matrix printing) "I don't see an 'e', I see six little dots".
This is painfully obvious on this game. It was most refreshing to go back
to a Williams game where the letters are big, bright, and easily readable.
Will Williams follow suit? I don't know. At the very least, try to
upgrade the resolution or enlarge the screen and font size a bit. The
dot matrix display isn't a bad idea, but I think it needs some work.

The Dot Matrix display is a good idea but I think it needs some work.
IMHO, it looks too much like a bunch of dots and not enough like numbers
and letters. Maybe a little brighter would be more eye-catching as well.

I think I actually like the alpha-numerics a little better. Something
fancy on an alpha-numeric showed expertise and a little innovation.
HIGH SPEED, my favorite, does some pretty neat things in attract mode.

*sigh*, I'm still deciding whether or not I like the dot matrix displays
or not, much less COLOR displays. TAF has a beautiful logo on the dot
matrix display, which would have been impossible with alpha-numerics.
On the other hand, HIGH SPEED II: THE GETAWAY has a lovely video mode,
that I'm not sure I like. Going to a video mode seems to defeat the
purpose of playing pinball in the first place.

So....the same kinda talk. I'll wait for history to decide

Im disappointed as well I thought we would be seeing Stern's first LCD with Star Trek. Hope they work on it and get their first LCD out as soon as possible. Interesting possibilities. As far as DMDs go been there done that now I am interested to see what creative and talented individuals can do with an LCD display.

I also found this 1992 post by Tom Yager, the creator of RGP, rather amusing:

Something you don't seem to grasp is that one reason you like Williams games
so much is that they work a little harder because of the competition. You see
masterworks like Funhouse and T2 largely because Data East exists. Otherwise,
Williams might be tempted to coast, pumping out games like Riverboat Anchor,
Hardly-Didthisone and Bugs Bunny. Williams will continue to be good at what
they do as long as they don't start acting like they're #1, and Data East's
(and soon Premier's) existence helps keep them humble.

Ok fine. An LCD the same size as a regular dmd not some big ass screen displaying stuff I can't watch anyways.

Forgot the colour dmds were LCD. Sue me.

Dmd for life!

No, I'm quite sure they're well aware of the work involved. Both on the hardware and software side. Gary Stern has said more than once that the display doesn't affect gameplay. Why would they hurry into a new technology that doesn't affect gameplay? Especially when you consider sales were up 30% last year. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Personally, I'm glad to hear it. It adds nothing to gameplay and could take away resources from things that do affect gameplay. Let JJP give it a shot.

Very disappointing to see people saying they won't buy the next ST pin solely because it won't have something other than a DMD. You folks have your priorities mixed up. Does AC/DC seem somehow less of a game because it doesn't have an LCD display? I understand folks wanting them, but they shouldn't be a deal breaker. The display never 'makes' a game. What goes on under the display is what makes or breaks a game.

I see your point phishrace but for what Stern is charging for LEs the LCD should be included. And that is why I can understand it being a deal breaker for some.

Maybe Stern is waiting to see if WOZ does anything worthwhile with LCD.

After playing WOZ again this weekend, the LCD does not add anything at all to the gameplay at this point.

if stern sell pinball in 2013 with no color on dmd , no buying.
hulk is the first green color on dmd but just one color
it is too bad than ACDC has no color DMD inside . hope to see one day with colors

if colors DMD can do it, why not stern? .....

An LCD screen can be ANY size and can display ANYTHING. DMD dots, alphanumeric, hand drawn animation and anything beyond and inbetween. To be fundamentally opposed to LCD displays in pinball shows a startling lack of imagination and common sense. It's fine if you don't like WOZs efforts but that is just one iteration of LCD display that takes a lot of time and afford to make work.

If I was creating a new pinball I would use LCD either in the playfield or in place of the DMD at a similar size but take advantage of the higher resolution and full colour to make a 'deluxe' version of the 90s DMD animations and scoring.

You don't have to create broadcast quality video sequences for pinball like JJP are doing.

Boy, for a site that is generally considered to cater to newer people in the hobby, it's amazing to me how many think the 20 year old DMD should stay. Long been time to move forward and JJP deserves credit for what it is doing, and I'm confident the end result will be spectacular.!!

An LCD will increase the costs for hardware and software. Even if LCD hardware costs drop to DMD prices eventually, programming video in color will cost more than programming a DMD. Which will lead to increases in prices of those LE's.

If high costs are your main concern, that last thing you should want is a new display.

Common sense tells me that the display doesn't affect gameplay in the least.

JJP's LCD I find too big...maybe a size between a regular DMD and a 26"LCD would be the best option.

Actually, an LCD panel the size of what's used in a color Dmd is way cheaper than an led or plasma Dmd. The hardware to run it is readily available by many vendors and is cheap. Integrating the LCD cost wise is a lot cheaper.
Now onto development costs. Yes, creating 3d cgi graphics can be very labor intensive and probably requires talent stern doesn't currently employ. However, there's no need to create this sort of content. I'd be plenty happy if the screen just used its higher resolution absolute to show me more about what's going on. Like static display of mode progress or such. With the resolution available on current LCD vs Dmd a lot of cool and useful non graphic data could be provided to enhance the game. And this does not need to cost stern more, once the initial code library is written.

There is plenty of talent in Chicago for that so it shouldn't be a problem for Stern, but it will definitely be more expensive. Upside is that at this point there are way more people in the talent pool that know how to do 3D graphics than DMD, so there are infinite possibilities there.

I don't really understand your point. Even if you're saying you'd prefer to go back to EM style simple score reels and nothing else like instructions or animations, if you you were making a game today you'd be best off using an LCD screen to display those scores.

Can you imagine BBH in color.... those lush green forests with wild game in full color glory. Bagging a deer with its red blood oozing....are you sure you want to stick to that opinion?

But when coding for a DMD are you essentially coding in "color" anyway as its essentially grey scale is it not?

I didn't say "talent in Chicago". I said "talent at stern". Hiring new talent is not going to be desirable for stern. As for doing dmd type animations, the people working at stern now know how to do those. It doesn't matter how scarce the resource of talent is in that area when they already employ the right people that have the skill.

If they go with the same size as a DMD, people will bitch because it's smaller than JJP's. Are commercial grade LCD displays roughly the size and shape of a DMD even available in large quantities? I can't think of any regular use for a display of that shape and size. Lotteries use the beta brite displays, like the ones used in TOPs kits.

People are already complaining about the white text used on OZ. Plain instructions and info won't cut it. People want that new display to pop. That ain't gonna be cheap. With movie pins, they will be able to use video from the movie, but everything else programming-wise is gonna cost more.

Why should I pay more for a display that adds absolutely nothing to gameplay?

Remember, we're talking about a game here. If you want to add something on, it better enhance gameplay.

To me,The Lcd can be integrated where it adds a lot to the overall fun of the game including interaction with game play...

So, should machines go back to basic LED displays or EM reels?

If AC/DC had LED displays or EM reels, I'd still play the hell out it.