(Topic ID: 128068)

No flippers..............but work in test menu..WPC fliptronics II

By burningman

8 years ago


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  • 34 posts
  • 12 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by amxfc3s
  • Topic is favorited by 5 Pinsiders

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#1 8 years ago

Hey guys...I have no flippers on my CFTBL. Game starts, serves up the ball, lights flash, coils fire but no flippers.

Went into test modes and both flippers work in flip and hold tests. Reseated connectors on fliptronics board in back box as well as flipper button boards. Flipper button boards do not register in switch test.

I don't think this is a fuse issue because they work in test modes. Any other suggestions? I have a twilight zone I can swap boards with to test if needed. Thanks in advance for any help.

#2 8 years ago

In switch test mode, are your flipper buttons showing up?

#3 8 years ago
Quoted from jfesler:

In switch test mode, are your flipper buttons showing up?

I think he said flipper button boards do not register in test

#4 8 years ago
Quoted from jfesler:

In switch test mode, are your flipper buttons showing up?

Hey guys....when I go to switch test they do not register. However, when I go into flipper coil tests, they both work in hold and flip.

#5 8 years ago

Do you have 14 Volt on Gray-Yellow wire ?
If not Check J116,117,118 on PowerDriverBoard.
cree-flbt.jpgcree-flbt.jpg

#6 8 years ago

Looks like I don't have anything on the gray-yellow wire...reseated j116 117 and 118 and no luck. Gotta head into the office but will look to see if I have power coming from the j116 117 and 118.

#7 8 years ago

Most likely the Gray-Yellow wire to the flipperbuttonboards is broken somewhere. If there was no power at all from the 12Vunreg., the machine would have other errors (too).

#8 8 years ago

Thanks Zaza....

One thing to note is I do have a mod that is piggy backed on J116 and is not getting power.

Also, I am seeing the right VUK activating right when the machine boots. Then when starting a game, its acting like its recognizing a ball, repetitively activating and making the "boing" sound through the speakers. There is an opto in that VUK that I will make sure is clean. Not sure if thats associated with the power loss to the flippers, but thought I would mention it.

#9 8 years ago

Try the original setup without the mod and measure TP1, should be around 14Vdc.
Opto's/Flipperbutton/Vuk could be related to each other except for the "boing" sound, looks like the soundboard is resetting....check 5Vdig on TP2 and 12Vreg on TP3 as well.

#10 8 years ago

On the boing....its the same sound as it makes when the VUK is actived via the switch in game play. This boing sound only comes when the game is "playing" and not on boot up.

#11 8 years ago

Ah, I was thinking powerup 'boing'.

In that case it looks like 12Vunreg is too low, maybe bridge rectifier BR5 has lost a segment and is working on half power.

#12 8 years ago

Thanks again Zaza....will be taking a closer look later tonight/first thing in the morning. League night is tonight...

yeah...I have a feeling that the VUK is a seperate issue, (maybe just need to clean the opto's)

#13 8 years ago

If you measure 12V unreg and it seems low you can do a quick test with board still in machine to see if rectifier is ok. The reading can vary some mV.

Machine 'OFF'
DMM in diode-test
unplug J112

Red pen on GND:
(test1) -Black on J112-1 ..read 460mV ?
(test2) -Black on J112-5 ..read 460mV ?
---------------
Black pen on TP1
(test3) - Red on J112-1 ..read 460mV ?
(test4) - Red on J112-5 ..read 460mV ?

If one of these 4 tests is 'open', BR5 is broken

5 years later
#14 3 years ago

Had the same issue. Ended up being a poor connection to GROUND WIRE wire coming from connector on driver board. Voltage tested 1-2v (should be 14v) at the flipper optics. Metered the 12v pin from the optic board to the ground straight to the cabinet braided wire strapping (which showed 14v) to determine the faulty ground on the flipper optic boards. this forum was very helpful. thanks all.

7 months later
#15 3 years ago

Hopefully this thread is not dead, I am having exactly the same issue with the machine I just bought (seller was up front about an electrical problem), flippers do not work but work ok in test. Both VUKs fire repeatedly when I start a game. Balls do not register when loaded. When I go to the test menu I get two warnings, “check switch 34 r popper” and “check switch 37 low r popper”. I checked the opto boards and at their 12V pins I am reading about .8V for all. I went to the power driver board and got the following:
J114 all ok
J116-2 0.8V DC to ground
J117-2 0.8V DC to ground
J118-2 0.8V DC to ground
J119 all ok.
All fuses seem to be ok. Any recommendations?

#16 3 years ago
Quoted from Deleenhe:

All fuses seem to be ok

Replace fuse F116

#17 3 years ago

Well, I replaced the fuse, started the game, the VUK's were not longer firing (yay!) and I did not get the switch warnings but the flippers wouldn't work and within a couple of seconds everything went black including the dmd. Now I just get the general illumination (and the start button) flashing every 3 seconds. All the fuses test ok and I don't smell any smoke. Any thoughts on where to start?

#18 3 years ago
Quoted from Deleenhe:

Any thoughts on where to start?

Voltage test points on power driver board - see if any are low or missing.

LTG : )

#19 3 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

Voltage test points on power driver board - see if any are low or missing.
LTG : )

Update. Before digging in further I labelled all the connectors and after removing and reinstalling all of them now it is booting again (yay!), the DMD is now working, but with some additional errors in the test report: "check switch F1 R flipper EOS", "check switch F2 R flipper button", and then same for the left. I checked all test points on the board and got this:
TP1 - 14.5V
TP2 - 5V
TP3 - 11.9V
TP4 - 0.38V
TP5 - could not find this one
TP6 - 73V
TP7 - 20.7 V
one right below TP7 (not labelled) .007V
TP8 - 18V

The only other thing of note is that LED3 is flashing, all others are solid. Please advise if any of these look odd or should point me in any direction. My next thought is pull the board out and check solder of everything.

#20 3 years ago
Quoted from Deleenhe:

TP5 - could not find this one

This is a ground test point, using the ground braid is just as good.

Quoted from Deleenhe:

The only other thing of note is that LED3 is flashing, all others are solid. Please advise if any of these look odd or should point me in any direction.

This is not an issue, both LED2 and LED3 can be ignored.

#21 3 years ago

I'm getting close! After much more troubleshooting, some broken wires, I have now got the game working with one exception. Every time the lower right popper (solenoid 3) tries to fire (it doesn't actually fire), it either blows fuse F105 or the game restarts. My local pin-friend tells me he suspects the corresponding transistor on the power driver board. Does anyone know what transistor corresponds to this solenoid (and connector wire J130-4)? Any other advice is welcome.

#22 3 years ago
Quoted from Deleenhe:

I'm getting close! After much more troubleshooting, some broken wires, I have now got the game working with one exception. Every time the lower right popper (solenoid 3) tries to fire (it doesn't actually fire), it either blows fuse F105 or the game restarts. My local pin-friend tells me he suspects the corresponding transistor on the power driver board. Does anyone know what transistor corresponds to this solenoid (and connector wire J130-4)? Any other advice is welcome.

check the diodes across the affected switches.

a bad diode can blow the corresponding transistor.

check the switch matrix and solenoid tables from the manual

#23 3 years ago
Quoted from pinballinreno:

check the diodes across the affected switches.
a bad diode can blow the corresponding transistor.
check the switch matrix and solenoid tables from the manual

Thanks for that. In this case, the switch on the popper is an opto so no diode that I can see (unless it's somewhere else).

#24 3 years ago
Quoted from Deleenhe:

My local pin-friend tells me he suspects the corresponding transistor on the power driver board. Does anyone know what transistor corresponds to this solenoid (and connector wire J130-4)? Any other advice is welcome.

Yes, I do know this; however, in your case as described, the transistor is not the problem. Whenever the transistor fires it literally shorts your 50V connected through the coil to ground, the fact that you blow a fuse when it fires tells me the transistor is working perfectly. While its extremely rare for coil winding to short without melting the coil, I strongly suspect your coil is either bad or is miswired.

WHY?
If the transistor was shorted you game would blow the fuse at power on as the coil would lock on as soon as the game was powerd up and causing the fuse to blow. This is the typical failure mode for this transistor.

If the transistor could not operate (burned open), the coil would never fire AND the fuse would never blow as no current would be pulled across this coil.

Now to answer your original question...and show you how to find it in your manual:

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Ancient Proverb: “Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.”

#25 3 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

Yes, I do know this; however, in your case as described, the transistor is not the problem. Whenever the transistor fires it literally shorts your 50V connected through the coil to ground, the fact that you blow a fuse when it fires tells me the transistor is working perfectly. While its extremely rare for coil winding to short without melting the coil, I strongly suspect your coil is either bad or is miswired.
WHY?
If the transistor was shorted you game would blow the fuse at power on as the coil would lock on as soon as the game was powerd up and causing the fuse to blow. This is the typical failure mode for this transistor.
If the transistor could not operate (burned open), the coil would never fire AND the fuse would never blow as no current would be pulled across this coil.
Now to answer your original question...and show you how to find it in your manual:
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
Ancient Proverb: “Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.”

Thanks for the fish! Taking your advice, before doing something with the transistor I switched the wires on the two VUKs and the problem stayed with the lower one so it definitely looks like a problem with that coil. I'm guessing the only real solution is to order a new one but I will take it out and see if I can see anything obvious. I don't see any obvious wiring issues (not that I really know what to look for). I've posted a couple of photos, note that the wire colour is incorrect as this is the wire from the top VUK which is working correctly. If you have any other seafood I'm all ears.

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#26 3 years ago
Quoted from Deleenhe:

I will take it out and see if I can see anything obvious.

Dig around the thin wires from the coil windings to the coil lugs. A crack or break can be hard to see.

LTG : )

#27 3 years ago

Problem found! I was about to order a new coil and noticed that the manual says it should be an AE-26-1200 which is what is (incorrectly) installed in the upper VUK, this one should be in the upper and it is an AE-23-800 which is quite a bit bigger in diameter. So big that it was touching the metal mounting bracket (you can see in the photo in my last post) and it wore through the insulation and was shorting every time it fired (see below). Thanks to everyone for all the help!

IMG_4627 (resized).JPGIMG_4627 (resized).JPG

1 year later
#28 1 year ago
Quoted from zaza:

If you measure 12V unreg and it seems low you can do a quick test with board still in machine to see if rectifier is ok. The reading can vary some mV.
Machine 'OFF'
DMM in diode-test
unplug J112
Red pen on GND:
(test1) -Black on J112-1 ..read 460mV ?
(test2) -Black on J112-5 ..read 460mV ?
---------------
Black pen on TP1
(test3) - Red on J112-1 ..read 460mV ?
(test4) - Red on J112-5 ..read 460mV ?
If one of these 4 tests is 'open', BR5 is broken

Sorry for digging this one back up but I have the same problem on my IJTPA (flippers not registering in switch test but they work in coil test). I'm not great with electronics but performed this test and found test 1 (black on J112-1, red on GND) to be open. I replaced F116 just in case with same resuts. Just wanted to confirm that this would mean BR5 is indeed bad and needs to be replaced. I would assume this also means that the board needs to be taken to a pro to do the job.

For background I have not recently made any changes to this machine - it had been working well as is for the prior year+.
Also, noted that BR5 has a sticker "tested by John H" that the other BRs do not have. This machine has a Rottendog flipper board installed if it matters (May 2019 - just previous to my purchase).

#29 1 year ago
Quoted from MLmotorsport:

found test 1 (black on J112-1, red on GND) to be open.

That indicates something is wrong. To be sure you will have to take the board out and measure directly on the legs of the rectifier.
It could also mean that one leg of the bridge rectifier has lost connection to the board.

When you have still an open reading from (-) and (~) on the rectifier, then in needs to be replaced.

#30 1 year ago
Quoted from zaza:

When you have still an open reading from (-) and (~) on the rectifier, then in needs to be replaced.

Tested BR5 and thats what I have - open between - & ~
From here I'll probably need someone with more experience and tools than me to fix it.
Thanks for the help!

#31 1 year ago

I just had this problem happen on a Fliptronics II. Left flipper did not operate on The Shadow. Switch test indicated good. Discovered the hold coil lug thin coil wire was broken off and the WRONG fuse on the Fliptronics board was blown. Scratched my head on this as that fuse indicated another flipper based on the stapled up fuse sheet in the backbox. (Turns out there was an error on this, which was obvious) Repaired the coil wire and replaced fuse - when powered up the flipper activated with no impulse. Immediately shut it down and knew it was a transistor. Turns out a 4th upper left flipper is indicted for Shadow, but it is a 3 flipper game. We also had no TIP 36C transistors in stock. So I took the transistor from the unused section of the board and put it where the blown one was. But before I powered it up, I wanted to replace both diodes in the flipper coil as a preventative measure. Sure enough as soon as I started to clip the old diodes out, the center lug both leads leading to the diodes was already sheared off.
My theory: Diodes sheared off, destroyed transistor, locked it on, burned the thin holding wire and blew fuse. Only the Shadow really knows.

#32 1 year ago
Quoted from MLmotorsport:

Tested BR5 and thats what I have - open between - & ~
From here I'll probably need someone with more experience and tools than me to fix it.
Thanks for the help!

It's a no-brainer (for me at least) to just shotgun replace all of the bridge rectifiers on the pre-wpc95 games. There's almost no risk because you can cut the old ones off from above the PCB and easily remove the remaining legs, and they are like $5 each. Put new ones in and forget about them for another 30 years.

#33 1 year ago
Quoted from amxfc3s:

It's a no-brainer (for me at least) to just shotgun replace all of the bridge rectifiers on the pre-wpc95 games. There's almost no risk because you can cut the old ones off from above the PCB and easily remove the remaining legs, and they are like $5 each. Put new ones in and forget about them for another 30 years.

Would this be a diy job for a guy with rudimentary soldering skills? I'm not afraid to try but would probably defer to a pro if theres a chance of ruining the board with a bad solder job.

#34 1 year ago
Quoted from MLmotorsport:

Would this be a diy job for a guy with rudimentary soldering skills? I'm not afraid to try but would probably defer to a pro if theres a chance of ruining the board with a bad solder job.

Hard to say...I cut the old bridges off from the top of the board leaving a good bit of the legs sticking up. Then add some fresh solder to each and gently pull them out of the board. Use a solder remover gun/pump to remove the old solder and install the new bridges.

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