(Topic ID: 258177)

No Feature Lamps - Suspect BR1 Rectifier

By Flip-it-good

4 years ago


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There are 61 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 4 years ago

Hello, and thanks for accepting me on Pinside. I wouldn't say I'm a novice but I'm not a professional either... I have perfect General illumination lamps on my Bally Paragon playfield and back box... but none of the feature lamps work on the Playfield. With the help of pinside I have checked the rectifier board and find that the voltages at TP 2 3 4 and 5 are correct. TP1 has zero output and I also checked the corner lugs of BR1. No output. BR2 shows 14 volts and BR3 shows 45 volts. Before I purchase a new board or replace BR1 should I be checking anything else such as the lamp driver board? Any detailed instruction for the multimeter and TP's how-to on the lamp driver board would be so appreciated if needed. Game boots perfect and plays and sounds fine. I had a melted coil earlier in the week that popped the under- playfield 1amp slo blo fuse, not sure if that ties in with the feature lamp issue, but I'll install the new coil when it arrives and make sure it is not stuck on when booting. I also ordered a new transistor for Q 17 on the solenoid driver board just in case that caused the coil issue. Thank you all in advance and Merry Christmas....!

#3 4 years ago
Quoted from Flip-it-good:

TP1 has zero output and I also checked the corner lugs of BR1.

Welcome!
Have you checked fuse F1 on the rectifier board? It's the feature lamp fuse that's inline (upstream) from the BR1 bridge.
It's a 10 amp fast blow fuse. Take the fuse out of the rectifier board and test continuity across it.

#4 4 years ago

Hi quench, the feature lights are now working. I was messing with the wiring coming off the rectifier board and mended it. All fuses F1-6 are good. I have one final issue if you'd care to take a shot at it....1 energized coil at power on. The coil is new. The one that was there melted last week! A tech person said to install the new coil and watch carefully if it energizes immediately upon power up. It does. So I replaced the coil transistor at Q17 on the solenoid driver board. The coil still energizes right at power ON. Someone suggested removing the J5 connector from the Solenoid driver board and then try turning it on. I did that and the coil did not energize. The thread i was reading indicated that this was a good sign but never explained why. My worry is that I replaced the wrong transistor! I don't have a schematic so I had to rely on someone sending me the chart for a Bally Paragon. The coil in question is the 3 bank drop target coil, NOT the 4 inline targets on the upper left of the playfield. Is there any way to verify if transistor Q17 on this solenoid board is indeed the match to that particular coil? Sorry this was lengthy...Pin boots up fine and plays fine but would love to get this Christmas present to my son back to 100%...ive attached a pic of the board after the new transistor was installed....thanks so much for any guidance....Scotty
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#5 4 years ago
Quoted from Flip-it-good:

I don't have a schematic

Paragon Manual & Schematics are downloadable from the Internet Pinball Data Base (ipdb.org) - see here:
https://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1755

Pinsider @inkochnito has also created lots of useful tech charts - grab the Paragon one from the Bally side link:
http://www.inkochnito.nl/
BTW @inkochnito if you're watching, you're missing the 3 bank drop target reset coil details from the Paragon coil list

Quoted from Flip-it-good:

Is there any way to verify if transistor Q17 on this solenoid board is indeed the match to that particular coil?

Schematics indicate Q17 is for the 3 bank drop target reset coil.

Ok, on that coil there is a diode soldered across the lugs. Check that you soldered the yellow wires to that coil where the banded side of the diode is connected to. If the yellow wires are on the wrong lug, that diode on the coil will now be blown and have to be replaced.

Next, leave J5 disconnected from the solenoid driver board, power on and measure the voltages at the following locations on the solenoid driver board:
Pin 10 of U4
Pin 9 of U4
The banded side of diode CR17 (just above Q17)

These voltage readings will tell us if a failure in the pre-driver circuit is causing the Q17 driver transistor to lock on at power up.

#6 4 years ago

Hi, great feedback, thank you for your help! I did solder the yellow wires to the banded diode lug. I checked all the other coils before making the wire connections. I replaced the transistor at Q17 yesterday. Coil still locks on at power-up. With J5 disconnected the coil no longer energizes upon power up. Could you specify where the black and red leads go when checking the U4 CA3081chip legs and the CR17 diode, and which setting on the multimeter? What readings will be displayed if things are good for each? I ordered a replacement CA3081 transistor array chip yesterday, just in case....thanks again....Scotty

#7 4 years ago
Quoted from Flip-it-good:

Could you specify where the black and red leads go when checking the U4 CA3081chip legs and the CR17 diode, and which setting on the multimeter? What readings will be displayed if things are good for each? I ordered a replacement CA3081 transistor array chip yesterday, just in case....thanks again....Scotty

Sure, the back multi-meter lead needs to connect to ground. The solenoid driver board has a "GND" test point which is ground. The backbox also has a ground braid wire running along the bottom and I just clip the black meter lead under it because it's more convenient.

The voltages you're measuring will be between zero and 5 volts. If your multi-meter isn't auto-ranging set it to 20 volts DC range.

The red multi-meter lead needs to touch the measurement points I mentioned in the previous post.

From memory:
Pin 10 of U4 will read about 0.8 - 0.9 volts
Pin 9 of U4 will read about 0.3 volts
The banded side of diode CR17 will read about zero volts

Click on the image below to zoom in to find the measurement locations.

Rectifier_Board_Q17a.jpgRectifier_Board_Q17a.jpg

#8 4 years ago

Wow, thank you so much for the superb direction! I will check these values that you graciously shared with me and keep you posted as to the results....S

#9 4 years ago

OK, pin 10 reads 4.9v, pin 9 is 2.06v and the banded diode at Q17 reads negative 1.36v. Just for fun all the other diodes Q1 thru Q19 read 0.02v, nearly zero. Thoughts? I have a new CA3081 chip on its way and I can replace the diode if needed. The diode model number is tough to see, I think it's N4004 and I think it's the same diode that bridges the lugs on a bunch of coils I have lying around here. I can easily de-solder one and put it on the board if you think the existing one is bad.

#10 4 years ago
Quoted from Flip-it-good:

OK, pin 10 reads 4.9v, pin 9 is 2.06v and the banded diode at Q17 reads negative 1.36v. Just for fun all the other diodes Q1 thru Q19 read 0.02v, nearly zero. Thoughts? I have a new CA3081 chip on its way and I can replace the diode if needed. The diode model number is tough to see, all I can make out is N400- - something....

Looks like that pin 10 of U4 has failed and internally gone open circuit. You'll need to replace that CA3081 transistor array chip at U4.
For your sanity, you can measure the voltages at pins 10 and 9 of U1 and U3 (they're both CA3081 chips too) to see what you should be getting.
The diode at CR17 is a standard 1N4004. It's probably ok.

#11 4 years ago

Thank you so much, your posts were unbelievably helpful, Thank You! I will replace the CA3081 and report back, I'll also read U1 and U3 for reference....have a fabulous weekend! Scotty

#12 4 years ago

Any suggestions on how to clean a circuit board without damage?

#13 4 years ago

With the relay installed - don't soak the relay by washing under running water or in dishwasher.
If dust and just plain dirt, can carefully run underside and part of topside under running water. Avoid water coming in contact with relay.
For cleaning flux - flux cleaner works best but alcohol also does the trick.

Main filter cap is from 1981 - time for him to be replaced.

And read this:
https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bally/Stern

Pay particular attention to this page:
https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bally/Stern#AS-2518-147_ground_updates_.2F_bullet_proofing
My board had pin 10 of J3 burned which wouldn't have happened if these updates had been performed.

Check connectors for dark or burned areas.
https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bally/Stern#Connectors
And look at soldered pins for cracks around pins, reflow if necessary.

#14 4 years ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

Pay particular attention to this page:
https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bally/Stern#AS-2518-147_ground_updates_.2F_bullet_proofing
My board had pin 10 of J3 burned which wouldn't have happened if these updates had been performed.

Little correction, that's for a different (combo lamp and solenoid) driver board which is only in a couple of later games.

You want to look at this link for your solenoid driver board :
https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bally/Stern#Solenoid_Driver_Upgrades

#15 4 years ago

I noticed that, thanks for the redirection! The 1981 capacitor (dark blue one at the top) do you know the value? I'm finding 11,000uf at 35volts. Is this correct? It looks like the other light blue cap is more recent.

#16 4 years ago

Original was 11700uF @ 20V. Odd size and not real common.
Easiest to find replacement size would be 12000uF @ 25V.

#17 4 years ago
Quoted from Flip-it-good:

The 1981 capacitor (dark blue one at the top) do you know the value?

Original spec for that top dark blue capacitor at C26 is 160uF @ 350V.
Ed sells an electrolytic capacitor kit for that board listing his part numbers for each capacitor:
https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=BALLY-P22E-KIT

#18 4 years ago
Quoted from Flip-it-good:

Any suggestions on how to clean a circuit board without damage?

If you are just talking dust, use a dry paint brush to brush it away.

#19 4 years ago

OK, me CA3081 installed, clean solder joints and the readings on the chip legs are correct. One problem, machine boots , starts game now I have no coils firing at all.

#20 4 years ago

No flipper coils either...fuse is good under play field...

#21 4 years ago
Quoted from Flip-it-good:

No flipper coils either...fuse is good under play field...

Measure the voltage (red meter lead) at test point TP3 on the solenoid driver board (black meter lead on ground). It should read 5 volts DC. If it doesn't you have a bad connection on your J3 connector which has a loop wire between pin 13 and pin 25 that connects 5 volts to TP3 (and then to the solenoid driver circuit on the board).

One of the bullet proofing mods G-P-E alluded to on Pinwiki was to hardwire 5 volts to TP3.

#22 4 years ago

Chip oriented correctly...pics...

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#23 4 years ago
Quoted from Flip-it-good:

Chip oriented correctly...

Yes, U4 is oriented correctly.
See my previous post.

#24 4 years ago

All voltages at TP 1 thru TP 5 in rectifier board are spot on...

#25 4 years ago
Quoted from Flip-it-good:

All voltages at TP 1 thru TP 5 in rectifier board are spot on...

What about TP3 on the "solenoid driver board"?

#26 4 years ago

Ground mods installed, TP3 reads 5.03 volts! Game boots, all coils functioning properly! If I could send you and ice cold Kraft beer and a large pepperoni pizza I would. What can I say? Thank you seems underwhelming. I've learned a lot and you've made a 9 year old boy very happy, thank you....! Final question, what does the 'sustain' pot do on the sound board? Just curious, I don't dare touch anything right now!

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#27 4 years ago
Quoted from Flip-it-good:

what does the 'sustain' pot do on the sound board?

The length of some tones played by the sound board can be sustained shorter or longer to blend into adjacent notes played, however from memory on your particular game it doesn't have much useful effect because it was in part disabled - that adjustment is more useful on the earlier games that create slightly more complex sound effects.

Quoted from Flip-it-good:

Game boots, all coils functioning properly!

Great to hear, playball!!

#28 4 years ago

Hi Quench, sorry to bother you again, today all the GI lighting is out. Backbox lighting is fine and game boots and plays as it should All playfield feature lamps are fine. Fuse is good at F4 on rectifier board. I looked through the Bally links but only found to check the GI wire harness that plugs into rectifier board. Voltage at TP4 and all test points are correct. Voltage at TP1 lamp driver board is 5.05v and connectors are fine. Clean connection at wire harness. Any thoughts??

#29 4 years ago
Quoted from Flip-it-good:

today all the GI lighting is out. Backbox lighting is fine

You mean G.I is working in the back box, but not on the playfield? That can only be a connector issue at the rectifier board. If you wiggle connector J1 on the rectifier board do the lights come on?
Fuse F5 on the rectifier board is responsible for G.I but if backbox GI is working then it's not the fuse.
The lamp driver board is only for feature lamps - it plays no part in G.I.

#30 4 years ago

Hello! Yes, back box is fine, feature lamps are fine... I will check that later today at J1. Any specific wire color I'm looking for?

#31 4 years ago

Hmm, there are two wires for each G.I power line to the playfield, rectifier board J1 pins 1 and 2 (white wire and green wire respectively) are ground, pins 5 and 8 (orange wire and red wire respectively) are power.
Would seem unusual that two wires go out. Are you sure the G.I in the backbox is ok?

Do you measure around 7.3 volts AC at test point TP4 on the rectifier board? (you need to set your multi-meter to measure AC voltage). Is fuse F5 on the rectifier board (20 amp fast blow) still testing good?

With your meter still set on AC voltage, what do you measure directly across any G.I lamp socket under the playfield?

Did the G.I suddenly go out or did it happen while you were working on something?

#32 4 years ago

OK, I cleaned every single pin on J1 and I also took every single wire out of its harness and cleaned each terminal and reset them back into the connector. You were right, about an hour ago I jiggled the J1 connector and the lights came back on for about 10 minutes and then during a game they went out again and now jiggling the connector does nothing, the fuse is fine and the back box is lit up like a Christmas tree. Getting 6.7 AC volts at TP4. It worked before when I jiggled it and now it's jiggling it doesn't do anything so I'm not sure what's going on I took the rectifier board out and look behind it because I needed to add some more thermal paste to the rectifiers anyway all the solder joints look good. Is there a way to measure the pins coming off the rectifier board at J1 without the harness connected, would that show anything?

#33 4 years ago

6.8vac where red and orange come out under the playfield and 6.8vac at all the GI playfield lamps. Backbox still OK but now I have no feature lights! I noticed before that when I took the J1 connector off completely, the feature lamps went out. They came back once I plugged the harness back in, now they're out completely..... 6.7vac at pins 5 and 8 without harness connected. TP1 on rectifier board no longer shows 5v. It's at zero. Jiggling has no effect now but at least power is coming to the GI lamps....no broken wires from harness to under playfield.

#34 4 years ago
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#35 4 years ago

I'll wait for your expert opinion but I think I'm going to order the Rottendog replacement rectifier board. Perhaps there are a few more things we can try to verify that it would be a worthwhile purchase....

#36 4 years ago
Quoted from Flip-it-good:

Is there a way to measure the pins coming off the rectifier board at J1 without the harness connected, would that show anything?

Yes, pull that J1 connector off the rectifier board.
The G.I. in this game is AC so always set your meter to AC when diagnosing G.I.
Black meter lead on pin 1 of that J1 connector, you should measure 6.7VAC at pin 5 and pin 8.
Do the same again but the black meter lead on J1 pin 2.

Quoted from Flip-it-good:

6.8vac where red and orange come out under the playfield and 6.8vac at all the GI playfield lamps.

Where was your black meter lead when you were taking these measurements?

Quoted from Flip-it-good:

I noticed before that when I took the J1 connector off completely, the feature lamps went out.

Yes, J1 is the power connector for the playfield that carries G.I, feature lamp power and solenoid power.

Your rectifier board shows thermal stress on the copper trace at pin 8 of J1 - maybe the trace has burnt open there.
Just solder a thick wire on the back of the rectifier board at the trace running from the top of fuse F5 (find an convenient spot to solder to on that thick trace) directly to the trace connecting to pin 5 and pin 8 of J1 pin header. Note your jumper wires should be equal or greater in copper diameter than the two wires coming off pin 5 and pin 8. They are carrying heavy current.

Also verify there is good soldering on the GI ground connections of that J1 pin header at pins 1 and 2.

If you decide to replace the rectifier board go for the one here that's produced by pinsider @barakandl:
https://nvram.weebly.com/new-pcbs.html

#37 4 years ago

OK, trace is installed from the top of fuse 5 to 5 and 8, which upon inspection, have already been joined with an arch of solder from someone previously. (see picture) pins 1 and 2 are already soldered together but there is no trace to anywhere. Should those two pins go to ground? Black lead was on ground from your previous post when checking lighting voltage.
IMAG0013 (resized).jpgIMAG0013 (resized).jpg

#38 4 years ago

Full board image....

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#39 4 years ago

Sounds like a bridge rectifier may be toasted if your feature lights are out now - check those - that one on the right looks like it has gotten pretty hot -

At this point, for $55 shipped, there's no shame in getting a brand new replacement. If you are decent at soldering, you can get the kit unassembled for $35 shipped.
That board looks like it's been stressed, stitched, jumpered, and hobbled along for years now - let it die a peaceful death.....just my 2 cents worth....

https://nvram.weebly.com/new-pcbs.html

#40 4 years ago

Should I try it? I have not turned it on yet.

#41 4 years ago

I will order it today, fully assembled....

#42 4 years ago

OK, feature lights came back but no GI. Door and backbox lamps are on and 6.8 VDC is still present at GI playfield lamps. I don't get it, how can the lamps have 6.8v and not be lit up?? Just for fun, how do I test the rectifier?

#43 4 years ago

Try a different bulb - - - -

You can search the forum here on how to test the rectifiers - I'm actually punching out of work right now and hitting the road -

#44 4 years ago
Quoted from Flip-it-good:

pins 1 and 2 are already soldered together but there is no trace to anywhere. Should those two pins go to ground? Black lead was on ground from your previous post when checking lighting voltage.

Yes, J1 pin 1 and 2 should connect to ground - the trace is on the top side of the board. It looks like the solder blob on those pins hasn't connected to the copper pad under the solder from the copper being tarnished. Remove the solder and clean (scrape) the two copper pads till you get a shiny copper color and resolder.

Pins 1, 2, 3, 4 on the J3 connector below it are also ground. So for redundancy solder a thick wire from there to the two pins at J1 pins 1 and 2.

#45 4 years ago

The new rectifier board will arrive shortly and I'll install it. I've seen some wiring diagrams out there or should I just desolder and resolder one wire at a time?

#46 4 years ago

Take a few photos showing all the connections before you start removing wires so you have a reference. The wires connect to points that are "E" numbered, i.e. the front picture board you posted above shows locations marked E1 through to E12 - that's where the transformer wires connect to.

There's a guide on PinWiki:
https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bally/Stern#How_To_Hook_Up_a_Bally_AS-2518-18_Rectifier_Board

Go with whatever method you find easier, just triple check all the wires are at the correct locations. Feel free to post pictures when you're done if you want another set of eyes on it.

Good luck!

#47 4 years ago

Ok! New board is all soldered up! Steve Kulpas photo was invaluable, thanks Steve! E1: Solid Red, E2: Yellow, E3: Small Red, E4: White/Red, E5: Small Green, E6: White/Green, E7: Twin Greens, E8: Twin Blacks, E9: Orange, E10: Green, E11: Small White, E12: White/Black.
Would love any feedback before power-up, such as leaving some connectors off, etc....

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#48 4 years ago

All looks correct to me.
Connect J2 only.
Power up. If there's no smoke (just kidding), measure the test points on the rectifier board - the voltages are listed in the schematic and on PinWiki.
Make sure to set your meter voltage range accordingly before measuring each point.
The G.I is AC, all other voltages are DC.
Black meter lead goes on any ground point.
If the voltages are in spec, then hook up J1 and J3.

Good luck!

#49 4 years ago

J2 or J3 only?

#50 4 years ago

Ok, the only 2 that come up short are the displays TP2 at 155v and TP3 logic at 11.5v, still in range?

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