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(Topic ID: 252329)

Nip It Intermittently Skips a Lost Ball Help!!!


By PinballGurus

1 year ago



Topic Stats

  • 53 posts
  • 12 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by PinballGurus
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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There are 53 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 1 year ago

My Nip It game randomly skips drained balls; it works 2-3 games in a row and then skips drained balls randomly... I have no clue why? I’m also having trouble with my Player Unit reseting back to player 1 (second video shows my Player Unit function), I’m not sure if I’m missing a spring or something else is causing it? If you have this machine, please let me know what I’m missing here. Thanks in advance.

Issue with machine:

Player Unit function:

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#2 1 year ago

My experience is that things like that on Bally machines tend to involve the Outhole and/or Ball Index relays, with sometimes a little score motor thrown in. Check this area of the schematic.

Capture (resized).PNG
#3 1 year ago

The behavior you're seeing could be explained by mechanical issues with your Ball Count and Player steppers. The 2nd video seems to show that the Player unit doesn't advance reliably. You should be able to push any of the plungers all the way in, and release it and have the stepper advance cleanly to the next step or reset. If it doesn't do that reliably the issue is more likely mechanical than in the circuit that controls it. You could verify that with a bulb tester connected to the unreliable solenoid.

The smaller reset plunger you wonder about in the 2nd video doesn't pull out until the Player Unit steps out of the reset position.

The upper (Ball Count?) stepper shows signs of not being reliable in the past. Someone has stretched the springs to try to get it to over come some other mechanical issue. I'd replace any spring that's been stretched like that. Here is some info from the parts catalog:
Bally Stepper Full Reset 1976 catalog (resized).jpg
/Mark

#4 1 year ago

The ball release coil driven by the above ball release relay is what serves up a ball into the shooter... this is disabled briefly by the make and break out hole switch, when the out hole relay pulls in second ball relay pulls in, if there are two balls resting on switches, this is how the game knows you don't still have a ball in play and you can score your bonus "and fully drain" somewhere else in the schematic there's a second ball relay contact and outhole contact that is going to pull in the bonus score relay if memory serves, and of course once you're scoring bonus there's a back make directly in series with the ball release so it doesn't serve another ball into the shooter while bonus is counting. NOW on my game getting a "free ball" happens occasionally because the outhole kicker fires it up the trough and sometimes it jumbles and ends up finally going over the trough Hill after the score motor has stopped running, and ball release pulls in and serves up a ball as if the outhole switch was skipped entirely

#5 1 year ago

That’s what it seems like it’s doing.

Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:

The ball release coil driven by the above ball release relay is what serves up a ball into the shooter... this is disabled briefly by the make and break out hole switch, when the out hole relay pulls in second ball relay pulls in, if there are two balls resting on switches, this is how the game knows you don't still have a ball in play and you can score your bonus "and fully drain" somewhere else in the schematic there's a second ball relay contact and outhole contact that is going to pull in the bonus score relay if memory serves, and of course once you're scoring bonus there's a back make directly in series with the ball release so it doesn't serve another ball into the shooter while bonus is counting. NOW on my game getting a "free ball" happens occasionally because the outhole kicker fires it up the trough and sometimes it jumbles and ends up finally going over the trough Hill after the score motor has stopped running, and ball release pulls in and serves up a ball as if the outhole switch was skipped entirely

#6 1 year ago
Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:

The ball release coil driven by the above ball release relay is what serves up a ball into the shooter... this is disabled briefly by the make and break out hole switch, when the out hole relay pulls in second ball relay pulls in, if there are two balls resting on switches, this is how the game knows you don't still have a ball in play and you can score your bonus "and fully drain" somewhere else in the schematic there's a second ball relay contact and outhole contact that is going to pull in the bonus score relay if memory serves, and of course once you're scoring bonus there's a back make directly in series with the ball release so it doesn't serve another ball into the shooter while bonus is counting. NOW on my game getting a "free ball" happens occasionally because the outhole kicker fires it up the trough and sometimes it jumbles and ends up finally going over the trough Hill after the score motor has stopped running, and ball release pulls in and serves up a ball as if the outhole switch was skipped entirely

This was my experience too with my Nip It. The ball coming up the ramp doesn't stop and fully close the switch in the trough and the game shoots a ball out without scoring the bonus.

#7 1 year ago
Quoted from EMsInKC:

This was my experience too with my Nip It. The ball coming up the ramp doesn't stop and fully close the switch in the trough and the game shoots a ball out without scoring the bonus.

When I owned Nip It, I also had he same issue. I found that the metal part the kicks the ball into the trough was worn and would sometimes kick the ball into the air which would slow the travel time to the trough switches. From memory, I bent that part so that the kick of he balll to the trough was smoother with no air balls. Also, I recall bending the metal above he trough track to prevent air balls. It was a bit ugly, but hidden under the apron. The ball(s) must make it to the trough switches quickly, or the ball count will not advance.

#8 1 year ago

I plan on replacing all the springs on the stepper units and then seeing how it functions afterwards. I assume I should also replace the clock springs as well?

#9 1 year ago

Do you happen to have page 100 with the springs on it? I don’t know which springs to order. The image you showed me says see page 100. Or a link to that guide. Thanks in advance.

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#10 1 year ago

Wait. I think I see them SP-100-120. Thanks.
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#11 1 year ago

If the other steppers on the machine are complete, you could just exchange the springs between the steppers to see if it is a spring issue. The coin unit stepper should use the same springs. The coin unit stepper will remain in the same position throughout the game, so that stepper can be manually set in any position while you're testing the springs on the player unit...

1 week later
#12 1 year ago

I got it back to square one and now, where everything on the playfield is working; now I cannot figure out what’s causing it to not reset players or why it is skipping balls. Not sure from the schematic what I’m missing. I’m pretty new to EM Machines. Any help is appreciated. As far as I can tell all the Player units are functioning as the should when manually tested, so I’m pretty certain this is a relay issue or perhaps a score motor issue, but what???

#14 1 year ago

Have you tested the theory that there is a mechanical issue with the ball kicker? You could do this by removing he apron and manually activating he trough switches. You may notice some difference between when it works and when it doesn't. This ball trough process must be in perfect working order for the ball count to advance.

#15 1 year ago

I’m pretty sure you’re right about the mechanical issue at this at this stage, but I think there’s another issue too, but I cannot put my head around it.

When the Ball has trouble getting up the ramp the machine doesn’t count the ball, but if I manually push the ball up the ramp quickly it usually will count it, but my Bonus Score relay seems to intermittently stick closed or it will open and close, and the game gets stuck. So either it won’t count the Ball at all, the Bonus Score relay gets closed (Score Motor keeps running), or it counts the ball and goes onto the next ball. I’ve checked the Bonus Score relay and I know it’s adjusted right and wired correctly so I’m thinking something else is triggering it, but I’m not sure what? Perhaps the score motor?

Quoted from bonzo71:

Have you tested the theory that there is a mechanical issue with the ball kicker? You could do this by removing he apron and manually activating he trough switches. You may notice some difference between when it works and when it doesn't. This ball trough process must be in perfect working order for the ball count to advance.

#16 1 year ago

Also, I have replaced all the stepper spring and all the stepper units seem to work as the should when tested manually, and except for the game skipping balls they all worked prior. Just not sure what could cause the Bonus relay to stay closed when a ball is drained. It seems to have something to do with the Bonus Score Unit, but not sure how or why?

#17 1 year ago

Maybe try to fix the ball kicker issue first to get the balls to properly advance. BTW, here is another thread that has some good info on nip it...in case you have not seen it.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-nip-it-forgets-to-advance-the-ball-count

#18 1 year ago

I’m 99% certain my issue lies somewhere between the Bonus Score Unit and the Bonus Score relay. Any idea would cause the Bonus Score relay to stay closed? I’ve replaced the entire unit and adjusted it so it has to be something else causing it to not release.

#19 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballGurus:

Any idea would cause the Bonus Score relay to stay closed?

These are the circuits that hold the Bonus Score relay energized. Check these switches/units. Does the Bonus unit make it all the way to its zero position?

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#21 1 year ago

What’s this arrow referencing?

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#22 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballGurus:

What’s this arrow referencing?[quoted image]

The wiper fingers on the disk in the Bonus unit. That's the part I was asking about in my question.

Quoted from HowardR:

Does the Bonus unit make it all the way to its zero position?

#23 1 year ago

I believe it does, but I don’t have a reference for the bonus unit positions.

Now you got me wondering if it’s wrong somehow. I know everything else is right on the relays in question.

I really appreciate your help.

#24 1 year ago

This is how my bonus unit is operating.

#25 1 year ago

I did notice my bonus unit zero was pretty greasy and gummed up so I’m cleaning it now and will re-adjust it and report back. Thanks again.

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#26 1 year ago

You can tell what position the Bonus Unit is in by looking at the bonus lights on the playfield.

Also, it would be very unusual for a working bonus unit to reset quickly to zero (like in your video). Normally they count down 1 for each activation of the Bonus Unit Reset solenoid.

#27 1 year ago

Little confused by this. Are you saying it’s installed incorrectly or the clock spring is too tight?

Quoted from HowardR:

You can tell what position the Bonus Unit is in by looking at the bonus lights on the playfield.
Also, it would be very unusual for a working bonus unit to reset quickly to zero (like in your video). Normally they count down 1 for each activation of the Bonus Unit Reset solenoid.

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#28 1 year ago

I have no idea what your latest picture is showing.
Maybe another Nip It owner can tell us whether their Bonus unit counts down one-at-a-time or all-at-once.
I'm pretty sure your Bonus unit is put together incorrectly.

#29 1 year ago

The bonus unit on Nip It does not step down one position at a time. In addition to collecting the bonus when a ball drains, you can also collect the bonus by locking one ball and releasing the ball by hitting the release targets. The built up bonus can be collected multiple times in a single ball by locking and releasing the 2nd ball. The bonus unit only resets when the ball count changes.

#30 1 year ago

Hi bonzo71
in Your "collection" I see You once owned a Nip-It --- in the beginning of post-29 You say "Bonus-Unit does NOT step down one position at a time" - in the end You then just say "Bonus Unit resets". From Your post-29 and the schematics (see the JPG) I clue: In Nip-It the Bonus-Unit is a "Total-Reset-Stepper" - when "reset" is triggered / activated: Wroam, bang - in ONE huge step all the way down to "Reset-Position is Zero-Position". Is my writing true ? Greetings Rolf

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#31 1 year ago

Rolf,

Yes, the bonus stepper is a total reset unit. This is unlike most bonus steppers which are single step resets.

#32 1 year ago

First time I've seen a modified switch stack like that. That is a true "hack" job... You might want to repair that switch stack, which might be causing some problems...

#33 1 year ago

Which switch stack are you referring to?

Quoted from fredsmythson:

First time I've seen a modified switch stack like that. That is a true "hack" job... You might want to repair that switch stack, which might be causing some problems...

#36 1 year ago

I noticed my lights are either not working or dim telling me I need to clean the contacts on the bonus unit, but I’m still not convinced it will fix my issue.

#37 1 year ago

pinballgurus let me know what you want pics of, I'll send a few of the bonus unit in the morning. Did you go thru the all of the score reel switch stacks yet? This solved a bunch of issues when chasing down problems on my game.

#38 1 year ago

Make sure your bonus unit at game start resets correctly at 1000 points and that your bonus end of stroke reset switch is released!

In reset sequence it resets your bonus unit going to the zero eos position then it pulses +1000 immediately after so at ball start you should have a bonus unit resting at 1000. EOS is not activated anymore but the 1000 position switch is.

You bonus unit lights should never flicker like in your video.

Multiball will most probably not start correctly if your bonus unit is wrongly set up. It excepts your bonus unit to not be a treset and have a minimum amount (1000 or more) to pay off the bonus and then release the ball.

#39 1 year ago

Are my lights flickering due dirty contacts on the bonus unit or is it something else you think?

Quoted from DavidPinballWizz:

Make sure your bonus unit at game start resets correctly at 1000 points and that your bonus end of stroke reset switch is released!
In reset sequence it resets your bonus unit going to the zero eos position then it pulses +1000 immediately after so at ball start you should have a bonus unit resting at 1000. EOS is not activated anymore but the 1000 position switch is.
You bonus unit lights should never flicker like in your video.
Multiball will most probably not start correctly if your bonus unit is wrongly set up. It excepts your bonus unit to not be a treset and have a minimum amount (1000 or more) to pay off the bonus and then release the ball.

#40 1 year ago

My bonus unit seems to be setup properly, cycling from 1000 to 10,000 but I’m not sure why the lights are flickering/not turning on...

Quoted from Thrillhouse:

pinballgurus let me know what you want pics of, I'll send a few of the bonus unit in the morning. Did you go thru the all of the score reel switch stacks yet? This solved a bunch of issues when chasing down problems on my game.

#41 1 year ago

Hi PinballGurus
I take "switches / switchstack on Bonus-Unit" - see the first JPG - on the right is a picture from Your video in post-34. I visited http://www.planetarypinball.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=BOOK - Bally-1976-Parts-Catalog http://www.planetarypinball.com/reference/partsmanuals/BLY_Parts_1976/index.html#/96/zoomed - made a snapshot, then had to turn the snapshot 180 degrees - then pasted the snapshot into the first JPG (on the left) --- two switches are actuated by a nylon-rod mounted on the gear.
See the second JPG - "encircled blue, CC": The End-of-Stroke-Switch on the Bonus-Unit to cut Self-Hold-Current on Advance-Bonus-Relay, "encircled blue, BB and DD" - the two mentioned switches actuated by the nylon-rod on the cam - "BB" has a connecting wire red-yellow to a solder-lug on the Bonus-Unit-Step-Up-Coil - I see this wire in the first JPG (on the right) - BUT, question - wire-red-yellow soldered-on to what blade - B-1 or B-2 or B-3 or B-4 ?
Second JPG, "encircled orange, AA" we see that the schematics is drawn not having current in the pin --- "encircled orange, BB": At start-up when the Ball-Index-Relay is not yet pulling: Current can flow through switch on Ball-Index-Relay making the Bonus-Unit to step-up from Position-Zero to Position-1 - when the turning motor actuates motor-switch-10A.
Second JPG, "encircled orange, EE" we see the Bonus-Unit after stepping up from Zero to 1.

The questions are - Your video (post-34), my first JPG here, on the right: Is Your Bonus-Unit in "fully resetted (means Position-Zero) Position" --- or is the unit stepped-up to Position-1 ?
When You start a new game - does the Bonus-Unit fully reset - then step-up one step ?

When You do testing "Ball rolls in Eject-Hole - Points shall be given": Park Your finger in the Eject-Hole (simulating "Ball lays in the Eject-Hole) - park Your finger in the Eject-Hole until the Kicker kicks Your finger - then take the finger out.

(((I always fear schematics on pins having the feature "every new ball starts with 'Bonus-Unit has been stepped up from Position-Zero to Position-1' " --- is the drawing in the schematics "Position-1" or Position-Zero ? - a mix of "here in the schematics Pos-Zero" but "here in the schematics Pos-1"))) Greetings Rolf

0Nip-It-Bonus-Unit (resized).jpg0Nip-It-Work-08 (resized).jpg
#42 1 year ago

I just noticed the yellow wire isn’t attached to anything. I believe it’s supposed to ground to the frame of the unit? Can anyone verify this before I put it back together to test. I’m certain it was never connected. I’m hoping this is part of my issue.

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#43 1 year ago

Explains why my bonus lights were flickering.

#44 1 year ago

To answer your questions.
1. The bonus unit resets to zero then immediate goes to 1 when I start a new game.
2. The eject hole works fine and kicks.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi PinballGurus
I take "switches / switchstack on Bonus-Unit" - see the first JPG - on the right is a picture from Your video in post-34. I visited http://www.planetarypinball.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=BOOK - Bally-1976-Parts-Catalog http://www.planetarypinball.com/reference/partsmanuals/BLY_Parts_1976/index.html#/96/zoomed - made a snapshot, then had to turn the snapshot 180 degrees - then pasted the snapshot into the first JPG (on the left) --- two switches are actuated by a nylon-rod mounted on the gear.
See the second JPG - "encircled blue, CC": The End-of-Stroke-Switch on the Bonus-Unit to cut Self-Hold-Current on Advance-Bonus-Relay, "encircled blue, BB and DD" - the two mentioned switches actuated by the nylon-rod on the cam - "BB" has a connecting wire red-yellow to a solder-lug on the Bonus-Unit-Step-Up-Coil - I see this wire in the first JPG (on the right) - BUT, question - wire-red-yellow soldered-on to what blade - B-1 or B-2 or B-3 or B-4 ?
Second JPG, "encircled orange, AA" we see that the schematics is drawn not having current in the pin --- "encircled orange, BB": At start-up when the Ball-Index-Relay is not yet pulling: Current can flow through switch on Ball-Index-Relay making the Bonus-Unit to step-up from Position-Zero to Position-1 - when the turning motor actuates motor-switch-10A.
Second JPG, "encircled orange, EE" we see the Bonus-Unit after stepping up from Zero to 1.
The questions are - Your video (post-34), my first JPG here, on the right: Is Your Bonus-Unit in "fully resetted (means Position-Zero) Position" --- or is the unit stepped-up to Position-1 ?
When You start a new game - does the Bonus-Unit fully reset - then step-up one step ?
When You do testing "Ball rolls in Eject-Hole - Points shall be given": Park Your finger in the Eject-Hole (simulating "Ball lays in the Eject-Hole) - park Your finger in the Eject-Hole until the Kicker kicks Your finger - then take the finger out.
(((I always fear schematics on pins having the feature "every new ball starts with 'Bonus-Unit has been stepped up from Position-Zero to Position-1' " --- is the drawing in the schematics "Position-1" or Position-Zero ? - a mix of "here in the schematics Pos-Zero" but "here in the schematics Pos-1"))) Greetings Rolf[quoted image][quoted image]

#45 1 year ago

I would think my issue lies in the purple circle.

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#46 1 year ago

The yellow wires to attach to the metal plate of the unit.

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#47 1 year ago

I got it back together and learned the only way I can get the ball advance to engage is if I pull in the ball index relay, then pull the 2nd ball and ball release at almost the same time.

#48 1 year ago

Would the ball release end of stroke have anything to do with the timing of this function?

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#49 1 year ago

Here what it’s doing presently:

#50 1 year ago
Quoted from bonzo71:

When I owned Nip It, I also had he same issue. I found that the metal part the kicks the ball into the trough was worn and would sometimes kick the ball into the air which would slow the travel time to the trough switches. From memory, I bent that part so that the kick of he balll to the trough was smoother with no air balls. Also, I recall bending the metal above he trough track to prevent air balls. It was a bit ugly, but hidden under the apron. The ball(s) must make it to the trough switches quickly, or the ball count will not advance.

I had the same problem with my Fireball - the outhole kicker was gummed up & not kicking the ball quick enough to the trough switches resulting in the timing being out & not advancing correctly, looking at the first vid one scene looks like the ball is being kicked too slow to the trough switch to me.

An easy way to eliminate this as the possible fault is to manually press the outhole switch simulating a drain & right at the exact same time flick the ball by hand up the trough ramp to the trough switch very fast. When I did this it worked perfectly, so I worked out the problem & rebuilt/cleaned the kicker assembly so it was kicking very fast. Never had the problem again.

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