(Topic ID: 201388)

Night Rider - Reset Loop

By MaxAsh

6 years ago


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  • 41 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by AlexF
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#5 6 years ago

Hi MaxAsh
When Your pin does the resetting at start-up --- DOES the Bonus-Score-Relay pull-in and stay pulling ?
See the JPG - a two-bladed switch on the Bonus-Unit (encircled orange) and a two-bladed switch on the Reset-Relay (encircled orange) make the Bonus-Score-Relay pull-in and it stays pulling with the "Switch*** mounted on the Bonus-Score-Relay, encircled red".
Switch***: A short wire runs from the Coil on the Bonus-Score-Relay to a switch mounted on the relay - THIS is the switch. Greetings Rolf

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#8 6 years ago

Hi MaxAsh
I refer to Your post-4 --- You can make the motor to stop. Start a game - wait for resetting - pin comes to idle - doing nothing , have the ball in the Outhole --- NOW, YOU manually press the armature (metal, anchor plate) of the Outhole-Relay --- does the pin shows some reaction ?

See the JPG - the question mark --- when the Bonus-Unit is resetted: This switch as drawn should make the Outhole-Relay to pull-in (and You manually force it "to pull-in"). Greetings Rolf

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#10 6 years ago

Hi MaxAsh
a post to come to the description in Your post-9 --- I just pick Your short remark "power on, game lit up" - Maybe what You did is (but You did not write it): "Toggled on the main power switch - nothing happened - then pressed the left flipper button and the lights turned-on" (?) Please write what You did.

This post is theory/ testing "What happens in a fully functioning pin when we toggle-on the main power switch --- then we press the left flipper button".
The schematics of Williams pins are looooong and narrow. Bally did not like that paper format - they said "lets have our schematics shorter and wider". See the first JPG. The "common line, wire-yellow, returning line for 6VAC (lights) and 50VAV (coils)" is bent and bent again forming its drawing like an U. The 50VAC-always-current (red line) connects through the coils downwards - ending on the line-yellow. The 50VAC-some-switches-control-flow-of-current (orange line) connects through the coils upwards - ending on the line-yellow.
This might be confusing when we look at different segments of the schematics.

The second JPG shows the pin plugged-in but toggled-off. You toggle-on (You close forever switch 1) - nothing happens as switches 2,3,4,5 are all open - no current flows on the 110VAC-side.
Youthen press switch 4 --- switch 9 is closed as the Delay-Relay does not pull (it is for severe Tilts) - as You press switch 4: The Lock-Relay (10) starts pulling and closes its switches 5,11,12. The closed switch 5 establish "always current on the 110VAC side" - the closed switches 11,12 make the lights (example: 13) to constantly light.
The closed switch 5 makes the transformer to produce (6VAC and) 50VAC --- You do not make an severe tilt so switch 9 is always closed so the Lock-Relay pulls forever.
The written above is all true - BUT some more stuff is happening:

You press switch 4 - the Lock-Relay is not yet pulling so switch 6 is closed - the Game-Over-TRIP-Coil (7) is activated - the relay trips and opens its switch 8. This happens when the Game-Over-Relay is not tripped (means when it is latched).
IF (if, if) the Game-Over-Relay is (already) tripped when You (after toggling-on) press the left flipper button (switch 4): The already open switch 8 hinders current to flow to coil (7).

When the Game-Over-Relay trips at a time: The pin changes from "in play" to "in Game Over".
When the Game-Over-Relay latches at a time: The pin changes from "Game Over" to "in play".
I made me a mnemonic help: The word LATCH consists of 5 letters - the word TRIP consists of 4 letters --- four is "5 less one" --- the latch coil armature has one nylon ladder mounted - "one less one" is zero --- therefore (mnemonic aid): The trip armature has zero nylon ladders mounted.

Test-AAA - please toggle-off the pin - do "latch" the Game-Over-Relay (means You press the armature having the nylon ladder mounted) --- then toggle-on - nothing shall happen. Then You press the left flipper button and You MUST see the Game-Over-Relay TRIP (((Of course: The Lock-Relay pulls-in and stays pulling))).

Please do Test-AAA and write about the reaction of Your pin. Greetings Rolf

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EDIT / add-on to this post 24 hours after writing the post: I cannot delete JPGs in my posts --- I would like to delete the second JPG and put in a new one.
In my fake drawing in tthe second JPG is the "2,3,4,5,11,12 switches" stuff --- truth is: Night Rider does NOT have this stuff (we toggle-on the main power switch and the lights are lighted). Also true is; The "6,7,8" stuff is in the Night Rider --- as the function is needed: When the Game-Over-Relay is latched when we toggle-on the main power switch: The pin makes the Game-Over-Relay to trip - so we start a NEW game when pressing the Replay- Button.
(((The second JPG I must have made for an other / old topic to show some stuff and I saved the JPG under the name "0Night-Rider-Work-8"))) Greetings Rolf

#12 6 years ago

Hi MaxAsh
You are right about "Night Rider does NOT have the 'Left Flipper Button turns-on the lights' feature" --- please read the end of post-10 - I edited / added remarks.

We NEED: When we toggle-on the pin - either the Game-Over-Relay is tripped --- or the pin makes (by us toggling-on) the Game-Over-Relay to trip. We toggle-on and we (must) see "Game Over" lit in the Backglass.

You press the Start-Button and the pin does reset the Score-Drums but does not reset the Bonus-Ladder. You are helpful and do manually reset the Bonus-Ladder and the pin happily proceeds and kicks-out the ball. Please be helpful for a while - we will come to this problem later.

"1) problem": see the "orange stuff in the JPG" - making 10 points is a co-working of the 10-Points-Relay AND the 10-Points-Score-Drum of "player in play" --- The pulling-in of the relay let current flow to the coil on the Score-Drum, ALSO: The pulling-in of the relay close a switch on the relay to keep the relay pulling UNTIL the traveling plunger on the Score-Drum opens a switch and this (opening the switch on the Score-Drum) CUT the "pulling of the relay". Not yet a fix - but good to learn: Look at the 10-Point-Score-Drum of Player-1--- when the plunger travels - at end of travel the plunger opens a switch - THIS Switch You open manually when the 10-Points-Relay is faulty always pulling --- question: Does this manually opening the switch makes the 10-Point-Relay and the Match Unit to quit pulling ?

"2) problem": I believe that EVERY ball kicked over to the shooter alley makes the Bonus-Unit step-up one position - means every new ball starts with ONE Bonus given --- when the pin serves the very first ball: Do You have ONE (You should have) Bonus given ? Or do You have ZERO Bonus ?

"Edit problem": For the moment: Let it as is - we will come to. I would like to fix the "1) problem" first so You can then play a bit. Greetings Rolf

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#14 6 years ago

Hi MaxAsh
I believe (for both of us) it is easyer to look at ONE problem - when fixed: Then look at the next problem. I had a busy day - here in Europe it is 20 minutes past eleven at night - I go to sleep. I hope to read tomorrow about Your findings and the problem You want to look at.
(When You start on the "Edit problem" - checking colors of wires in the schematics and in Your pin: At least write down somewhere WHAT was wired in Your pin - as the person working on that place did some thinking)
Till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

#17 6 years ago

Hi MaxAsh
good news - You solved the Bonus Count Down feature.
Three ways to step-up on the Bonus-Unit - first way: Every ball given starts with ONE Bonus given --- in the JPG the pulling Outhole-Relay closes encircled green switch for a long time. The pulling of the Outhole-Relay makes the Score-Motor run --- at a specific time the SCM-6D (encircled blue) closes - the Bonus-Unit-Step-Up Coil fires.
Second way: The ball lands in the Top-Hole - this makes the Top-Hole-Relay pull-in, closing its switch (encircled orange) - stays pulling, makes the motor run etc.
Third way: You hit a Drop-Target - the Drop-Target-Relay is made pull-in, closing its switch (encircled orange) - stays pulling, makes the motor run etc.

When the Bonus step-up coil never actuates: "Simple jumpering, AAA: Toggle-off the pin and unplug the main power cord (Safety Reasons) - clip-on at Coil and lay the other end near "Transformer-Lug-Yellow" (two brownish-yellowish wires are soldered-on on the lug --- lay the jumper-wire-end NEAR the transformer-lug - the free end of the jumper-wire shall not touch metal.
Plug-in, toggle-on, start a game --- wait for resetting - wait for the ball to come --- pin idles --- then grab the jumper-wire on the insulation and tip-on at Transformer-Solder-Lug-Yellow - and retract from the lug - did the coil on the unit fire ?

The BBB shows using two jumper-wires - have them clipped-on - and the two free ends do not touch each other - do not touch metal --- when You come to testing: You grab the jumper-wires on the insulation and put together etc.
The CCC shows what I like: I have jumper-wires with an doorbell-push-button-switch mounted in the jumper-wire. I also have jumper-wires with an toggle-switch mounted in the jumper-wire.

Can You make the coil on the unit to fire ? Greetings Rolf

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#19 6 years ago

Hi MaxAsh
the score-motor is drawn in the schematics at F-23. At C-21 is drawn "1E SCM." - a threebladed Make-and-Brake Switch on the sixth cam on the score-motor. You see the real motor - then comes cam-1 - then cam-2 - then 3,4,5,6 etc. Here http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=File:Bally_Motor_Switch_Levels.JPG bottom-up the levels A,B,C,D, please look-up in Your pin at cam-1 --- it would be nice when the cam-1 in Your pin has exactly (ABCDE) five MOVED BLADES - MEANS THE SCM-1E IS (IN Your pin) the topmost switch (I do not know). IF (if, if) it is:

When the pin is running after You have started a game and made some points - running but actually idling - TRY: Gently press down the top-most blade on cam-1 and after half of a second let go on the blade --- does this makes the motor to run - to make a turn of 180 degrees ? Would be nice --- would be very handy --- whenever You want a turn of the motor: You do this "pressing and then let go".
Check the SCM-6D --- wires soldered-on ? Greetings Rolf

#21 6 years ago

Hi MaxAsh
a strange thing --- lifted playfield and "not lifted playfield". In this situation it would be good to do an "BBB" type of jumpering / testing. You have a jumper-wire coming from the coil on the unit - the jumper-wire comes out through the open coin-door. Also, the second jumper-wire coming from Lug-Yellow on the transformer - this second jumper-wire also comes out through the open coin-door. You have the playfield down - and do the test - connecting the ends of the jumper-wires "in the open" - and with the playfield down and doing the jumper-test-connection: How good is the action on the coil ?
Tomorrow I must get up early - so I go to sleep, till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

#25 6 years ago

Hi Maxash
The transformer for sure is in the Cabinet - the Score-Motor for sure is in the Cabinet - the Bonus-Unit for sure is on the playfield (is it ?) - The Outhole-Relay I believe is in the Cabinet (is it ?)
Where is the Top-Hole-Relay ? Cabinet or Playfield or Backbox ?
Where is the Drop-Target-Relay ? Cabinet or Playfield or Backbox ?
When You look at Score-Motor-Cam-6-Switch-D --- is it possible for You to clip-on a Jumper-Wire at "lug-74-1" as a starting point / clip-on-point for a new jumpering (to Switch on Outhole-Relay) ?

The drawing of all schematics is "abstract / drawn beautyful" --- there is never an connecting wire and all of a suffen from that wire forks-off another wire connecting towards "third party". When You write answers to my questions above: I then can "redraw" the "abstract JPG in post-17". Greetings Rolf

#27 6 years ago

Hi MaxAsh
Yes - my post-25 is answer / reply to Your (original) post-24 - not realising You have added the last part "EDIT". So this my post-27 is answer / reply to Your "post-24 - EDIT section":

Look here http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=File:BallyScoreMotor3-4View.jpg - I see the bakelite cams --- many pins have an Service Jack to unplug / cut electricity to the real motor --- people sometimes unplug - then rotate the motor / cams by hand for doing a test.
In the picture I see bakelite stuff on the switchstacks --- WHAT is Your mentioned "bakelite rotating pieces" ?
"Stuck in Ball-1" means "You start a game for ONE Player - You get Ball-1, You play it - You (by jumpering) make some bonus - You loose the ball-1, Bonus is counted down - the pin kicks-out a ball to the shooter-alley - BUT it is again Ball-1. You play etc --- again Ball-1. Is this what happens ? Otherwise make an detailled description.

I will not write posts until I see Your answers to my questions above - once I know: I will write about new tests. Greetings Rolf

#29 6 years ago

Hi MaxAsh
the stepping-up on the Ball-Count-Unit is shown in the ipdb-schematics at schema-31,32,33-C,D,E,F - mainly the Score-Motor-Switch-3C. I would like to put aside the problem as I hope we can fix the other problem (stepping the Bonus up):

See the JPG - maybe in Your pin the wiring is as I show my imagination - wire-74-1 hops from Score-Motor-Switch-6D to a switch on a relay - hops further - hop, hop, hop.
Wire-21-2 hops from a switch on a relay to an switch on a relay - hop, hop, hop to SOCKET in the bottom of the Cabinet - a Jones-Plug - then in the bundle of wires the wire-21-2 runs up to the playfield and runs to the Coil on Bonus-Unit.

Locate in the cabinet the 19-Jones-Plug connecting upwards to the playfield - look for SOCKET of wire-21-2-wire-of-color-Blue-Red. Set an permanent*** jumper connecting the SOCKET to the coil.
Permanent***: Clip-on the jumper-wire at both sides - You do jumper an "old, existing, permanent connecting wire in the pin" --- "permanent jumper guarantees permanent connection on a wire mounted permanent connecting. Greetings Rolf
P.S.: You are troubleshooting - I hope for luck - but maybe You must jumper (Type AAA or BBB or CCC) "SCM-6D to Coil on Bonus-Unit" (?) - more to this if needed.

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#30 6 years ago

Hi MaxAsh
I had to get up early this morning --- by now it is a quarter to eleven at night - I go to sleep. Till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

#33 6 years ago

Hi MaxAsh
great - with a jumpering the Bonus-problem is fixed. Maybe (maybe) a preowner was rude and handled the bundle of wires "not carefully" - one or maybe more wires have broken - INSIDE the fabric / insulation --- when You raise or lower the playfield - breakage shows up or dissapears. You may establish ( solder-on) a new permanent (jumper) wire to connect --- then make an good description "what You have done" and "why You have done" (?).

Problem "not stepping on the ball". I know the Ball-Count-Unit does not step in a ONE-Player-Game. I believe (to have read) the stepping on the Player-Unit in an MULTI-Player-Game (also) does not work.

Short description - in a running Night Rider You have made points therefore the Ball-Index-Relay is pulling - therefore "3-4" is closed, You have NOT made an Extraball so the Extraball-Relay is not pulling - so "5-6" is closed. In a 1,2,3,4-Player game it comes the time to do the stepping - ALWAYS TWO SHOTS of electricity are fired - the pulling Outhole-Relay makes the motor run, moves the threebladed switch - FIRST shot goes "1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8" then maybe some "9-10-11" maybe reaching "12". SECOND shot goes "1,2,3,4,5,6,21,22,23" - then maybe "24-25" or maybe "31-32".

When You have no stepping on the ball AND no stepping on the player: I believe the fault is in the "1,2,3,4,5,6,7,21". A (first) try is: Set an permanent jumper connecting "2 to 6". Another try could be "Type BBB or Type CCC" jumper "2 to 9a or 10a" --- the Ball-Count-Step-up-Coil then should fire (((fire faulty looooong in time - as long as the Outhole-Relay is pulling --- but You are testing and want information about 'does the coil fire' ))).

I feel uncomfortable - writing all the possible tests You can do using a permanent jumper-wire or doing the Type AAA or BBB or CCC way of jumper-testing. You should look at the schematics- "from where to where can I jumper, what do I expect - what tells me the pin with its reaction".

Long description: In an MULTI-Player-Game the Ball-Count-Step-up-Coil ONLY must fire when the LAST player has lost the ball. At this time (last player has lost the ball): ALSO the Player-RESET-Coil must fire. People may not know: Bally said: A ONE-Player-Game is an MULTI-Player-Game --- we let the Player-Unit-RESET-Coil also fire - the Unit happens to be in resetted position - another attempt to reset does no harm --- we implement this as it is easyer to implement.
A ONE-Player-Game: First shot is "1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,10a,11,12" - the Ball-Count-Step-up-Coil fires --- so the plunger on the unit travels - at end of travel the plunger closes "A-B" - the Player-Reset-Relay (C) pulls-in - closes "D-E" and stays pulling for a long time through "F-G". Not only "D-E" is closed - ALSO "23,24,31" is moved --- the second shot is fired "1,2,3,4,5,6,21,22,23,31,32" --- in an One-Player-Game not needed - but done: The Player-Unit is resetted.
A MULTI-Player-Game: First shot may not reach the "12" due to the settings on the Units - the "C" is not made pulling - so the "23,24,31" is not moved --- the second shot "1,2,3,4,5,6,2,22,23" then goes "24,25" - the Player-Unit steps to next player.
Greetings Rolf

0Night-Rider-Work-18 (resized).jpg0Night-Rider-Work-18 (resized).jpg

#35 6 years ago

Hi MaxAsh
great - jumpering permanent "2-6" makes the Ball-Count-Unit step-up (((with this jumper You cannot gain Extraballs - please accept this for the moment))). Not so great: ALSO the Player-Unit steps-up. The second shot "1,2,3,4,5,6,21,22,23" then faulty runs "23,24,25" - it should run "23,31,32". The fault is: The "A,B,C,D,E,F,G - closing D-E and also moving "23-24 to 23-31" by "the relay C actuates" does not happen.
For a short while lets say "MaxAsh wants to play ONE-Player-Games and enjoy the pin" - maybe tomorrow or so: We say: Lets troubleshoot to make the pin fully running (?)

So what I suggest here is not a fix - I would like to cheat a bit so You can play ONE-Player-Games. In the ipdb-schematics at schema-1-D-E You see the coding of the wire colors. Locate on the Player-Reset-Relay the three-bladed Make-and-Brake-Switch (my 23,24,31). Sneak-in and secure a stripe of paper in-between the contact-points "23-24" (((the 'closed when not pulling' part of the switch) - have the stripe of paper sneaked-in and have the jumpering "2-6" --- then play ONE-Player-Games --- question: Can You play ONE-Player-Games ? Greetings Rolf

P.S. - Please: Wait with "taking apart the Player-Unit".

#38 6 years ago

Hi MaxAsh
take away the jumper "2-6" and take away the sneaked-in stripe of paper.
You have cleaned the Player-Unit - please look at the Coin-Unit - DOES the Coin-Unit RESET when You start a brand-new game ? Or does the Unit faulty stick in "4-Player-Mode" and does not reset ? Do You have jumper-wires with insulated gator-clips ? Make sure the Coin-Unit is resetted - then start a game maybe for one player - or for 2,3,4 players - THEN (with the pin running) establish jumper "2-6". Then do tests and write about the results. I will read them by tomorrow - the "time-gap" between Europe and the USA is a bit awful - I happen to be tired - I go to sleep. (Then) A new day and another try to completely fix Your pin. Greetings Rolf

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