(Topic ID: 201388)

Night Rider - Reset Loop

By MaxAsh

4 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 41 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 months ago by AlexF
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

0Night-Rider-Work-18 (resized).jpg
0Night-Rider-Work-17 (resized).jpg
0Night-Rider-Work-16 (resized).jpg
0Night-Rider-Work-15 (resized).jpg
0Night-Rider-Work-08 (resized).jpg
0Night-Rider-Work-01 (resized).jpg
0Night-Rider-Work-06 (resized).jpg
0Night-Rider-Work-14 (resized).jpg
NR_Bonus_Score_Reset_Re (resized).jpg
NR_Bonus_Unit_Reset (resized).jpg
NR_Score_Reset_Relays (resized).jpg

-1
#1 4 years ago

Hello All - just picked up another Night Rider (loved my first one, sold it to a friend, but missed it). Found a lot of weird things going on when I got it home. The previous owner didn't know much about EMs, so when it "stopped working right" they started replacing a bunch of coils, and making various odd adjustments.

First thing I noticed was that all of the jones plugs on the bottom board in the cabinet were in the wrong sockets. Fixed that. Then I noticed that a bunch of the relay switches in a couple of the relays were out of place, so I fixed that as well.

Here's where I am now: As soon as the power is turned on, the game goes into a "reset loop" of sorts. I've dealt with score motors spinning away before, but this game is acting a little weirder

The Score motor is spinning non-stop, but what I noticed was the #1 Score Reset and #2 Score Reset relays in the head are constantly pulling on and off. The Game Over relay is doing the same, on/off (not latching).

Attached is a snippet from the schematic that shows the #1 and #2 Score Reset relays. I was thinking perhaps the score reels themselves may be the issue, and that the switches that should be open might not be. I was going through each score reel, but I'm not 100% certain if all (3) of the switches in the score reel stack should be "open" when the reel is at "0" . It looks like on some reels all 3 switches are open at zero, on others they are not.

Anyone with a Night Rider do me a favor and check their score reels in reset position, and tell me if all switches on all reels are "open" when the reel is at "0"?

If that's not it... I'm thinking Game Over relay, Reset Relay, or Coin Relay maybe. Thoughts/Suggestions welcome. Thanks!

NR_Score_Reset_Relays (resized).jpg

#2 3 years ago

You'll first need to determine what switches are sending power to the score motor. All the score reel switches should be in the same position when they are set to zero. Check the following switches to make sure they are open:

Coin chute switches
Drop target switches
Top hole switch
Outhole switch

#3 3 years ago

Okay, will do. Regarding the score reels, are you saying that all switches should be open when the reel is reset? That seems to be what it looks like, but with several of them having the middle switch closed, I wanted to verify. It's quite possible they all just need some adjustment. Since I'll be cleaning them anyway, it will be a good time to do whatever needs to be done to get them setup properly.

My old Night Rider worked when I bought it, so very little needed fixing. Wish I took more pics of it so I would have them for this one!

#4 3 years ago

Okay, just spent a couple of hours cleaning switches and making some adjustments. I discovered that the "reset loop" seems to be caused by the Bonus Unit not resetting. I manually decreased it back to reset position and the #1 and #2 Score Reset relays stopped going on/off. The Score Motor stopped as well. The ball didn't kick out, but the game appears to have "started". The right flipper worked, as did the pop bumpers. Left flipper dead. About half of the targets are working. I checked/cleaned them, but still nothing, so it's more than just dirty switch contacts on the targets/rollovers themselves. Outhole not registering on ball drain, drop targets are not scoring. It's a mix of working/not working right now from a playfield perspective.

Before I worry about all that, I need to figure out why the Bonus Unit isn't resetting.

NR_Bonus_Unit_Reset (resized).jpg

NR_Bonus_Score_Reset_Re (resized).jpg

#5 3 years ago

Hi MaxAsh
When Your pin does the resetting at start-up --- DOES the Bonus-Score-Relay pull-in and stay pulling ?
See the JPG - a two-bladed switch on the Bonus-Unit (encircled orange) and a two-bladed switch on the Reset-Relay (encircled orange) make the Bonus-Score-Relay pull-in and it stays pulling with the "Switch*** mounted on the Bonus-Score-Relay, encircled red".
Switch***: A short wire runs from the Coil on the Bonus-Score-Relay to a switch mounted on the relay - THIS is the switch. Greetings Rolf

0Night-Rider-Work-14 (resized).jpg

#6 3 years ago

The flipper circuit has only a few switches. Check the flipper button switch and the EOS switch to make sure they are clean and adjusted properly.

For the drop target scoring, you can manually operate the drop target relay to see if it will send power to the score reels.

Also, check all the Jones plugs on the machine to see if they are clean and fully seated...

#7 3 years ago

Hi Rolf - the bonus score relay does not look like it's doing anything at all. I will check this again as soon as I can.

Seems like nothing related to the outhole is working, so I'm guessing some of my issues are tied to that as well.

The power is out at my home right now, so I think I'll just spend some time going over all the Jones plugs, connections, etc.

#8 3 years ago

Hi MaxAsh
I refer to Your post-4 --- You can make the motor to stop. Start a game - wait for resetting - pin comes to idle - doing nothing , have the ball in the Outhole --- NOW, YOU manually press the armature (metal, anchor plate) of the Outhole-Relay --- does the pin shows some reaction ?

See the JPG - the question mark --- when the Bonus-Unit is resetted: This switch as drawn should make the Outhole-Relay to pull-in (and You manually force it "to pull-in"). Greetings Rolf

0Night-Rider-Work-06 (resized).jpg

#9 3 years ago

Okay, my power is finally back on after a wind storm knocked it out for a couple of days. I've only had a chance to quickly power on the game and see what would happen, as it's late and I don't have much time to do anything else. Thankfully, while the power was out I had time to go through and clean every switch, jones plug, etc. that I could get my hands on.

The result is that I seem to be closer to working, though there are all sorts of strange behaviors to figure out. Here's a breakdown of what I noticed:

First Attempt
- Power on, game lit up, no reset loop, but the game was sitting at Ball 1 (game itself was dead).
- I hit start, nothing. So I manually added a credit at the coin door switch.
- The game reset the score reels, and kicked out the ball into the shooter lane!
- Both flippers now worked
- I started manually triggering some switches. More worked than before, but the drop targets still didn't register. Spinners were dead. Tophole/Kicker was dead.
- I drained a ball, no reaction
- One of the targets I hit seemed to lock the Match Unit somehow, because the coin on it stuck and was humming. At that point, I shut the game off.

Second Attempt
- Power on, game lit up, no reset loop. Still showing Ball 1
- Pressed Start, this time the game reset! Drop targets and scores reset, ball kicked out.
- Spinners worked, top hole and associated hole kicker worked
- Drop targets registered and worked, though the associated score relay and/or score reel locked up
- I hit the center stand up target, and the game suddenly got stuck scoring non-stop. I turned it off.

Third Attempt
- Almost the same as the second attempt, except when I drained a ball, the Ball In Play went up to 2
- Then when I dropped the ball into the top hole, for some reason the Ball In Play went to 3, then the game ended, which was strange.

I ran out of time for now, but I will do some more checking tomorrow. Clearly the game has the ability to work, I just need to figure out what it's acting oddly and inconsistent.

Rolf - I will need to check what you asked tomorrow.

#10 3 years ago

Hi MaxAsh
a post to come to the description in Your post-9 --- I just pick Your short remark "power on, game lit up" - Maybe what You did is (but You did not write it): "Toggled on the main power switch - nothing happened - then pressed the left flipper button and the lights turned-on" (?) Please write what You did.

This post is theory/ testing "What happens in a fully functioning pin when we toggle-on the main power switch --- then we press the left flipper button".
The schematics of Williams pins are looooong and narrow. Bally did not like that paper format - they said "lets have our schematics shorter and wider". See the first JPG. The "common line, wire-yellow, returning line for 6VAC (lights) and 50VAV (coils)" is bent and bent again forming its drawing like an U. The 50VAC-always-current (red line) connects through the coils downwards - ending on the line-yellow. The 50VAC-some-switches-control-flow-of-current (orange line) connects through the coils upwards - ending on the line-yellow.
This might be confusing when we look at different segments of the schematics.

The second JPG shows the pin plugged-in but toggled-off. You toggle-on (You close forever switch 1) - nothing happens as switches 2,3,4,5 are all open - no current flows on the 110VAC-side.
Youthen press switch 4 --- switch 9 is closed as the Delay-Relay does not pull (it is for severe Tilts) - as You press switch 4: The Lock-Relay (10) starts pulling and closes its switches 5,11,12. The closed switch 5 establish "always current on the 110VAC side" - the closed switches 11,12 make the lights (example: 13) to constantly light.
The closed switch 5 makes the transformer to produce (6VAC and) 50VAC --- You do not make an severe tilt so switch 9 is always closed so the Lock-Relay pulls forever.
The written above is all true - BUT some more stuff is happening:

You press switch 4 - the Lock-Relay is not yet pulling so switch 6 is closed - the Game-Over-TRIP-Coil (7) is activated - the relay trips and opens its switch 8. This happens when the Game-Over-Relay is not tripped (means when it is latched).
IF (if, if) the Game-Over-Relay is (already) tripped when You (after toggling-on) press the left flipper button (switch 4): The already open switch 8 hinders current to flow to coil (7).

When the Game-Over-Relay trips at a time: The pin changes from "in play" to "in Game Over".
When the Game-Over-Relay latches at a time: The pin changes from "Game Over" to "in play".
I made me a mnemonic help: The word LATCH consists of 5 letters - the word TRIP consists of 4 letters --- four is "5 less one" --- the latch coil armature has one nylon ladder mounted - "one less one" is zero --- therefore (mnemonic aid): The trip armature has zero nylon ladders mounted.

Test-AAA - please toggle-off the pin - do "latch" the Game-Over-Relay (means You press the armature having the nylon ladder mounted) --- then toggle-on - nothing shall happen. Then You press the left flipper button and You MUST see the Game-Over-Relay TRIP (((Of course: The Lock-Relay pulls-in and stays pulling))).

Please do Test-AAA and write about the reaction of Your pin. Greetings Rolf

0Night-Rider-Work-01 (resized).jpg
0Night-Rider-Work-08 (resized).jpg

EDIT / add-on to this post 24 hours after writing the post: I cannot delete JPGs in my posts --- I would like to delete the second JPG and put in a new one.
In my fake drawing in tthe second JPG is the "2,3,4,5,11,12 switches" stuff --- truth is: Night Rider does NOT have this stuff (we toggle-on the main power switch and the lights are lighted). Also true is; The "6,7,8" stuff is in the Night Rider --- as the function is needed: When the Game-Over-Relay is latched when we toggle-on the main power switch: The pin makes the Game-Over-Relay to trip - so we start a NEW game when pressing the Replay- Button.
(((The second JPG I must have made for an other / old topic to show some stuff and I saved the JPG under the name "0Night-Rider-Work-8"))) Greetings Rolf

#11 3 years ago

Hi Rolf - I do not think this game has the left flipper feature that turns the GI on. I owned this same game in the past, and it did not use the left flipper to turn anything on either.

I tried your test, and whenever I press the on/off switch on the machine, the GI comes on. I manually latched the Game Over Relay as you suggested, and the result was the same. When I turn the game on with the on/off switch, the GI comes on and the game shows "Game Over" on the backglass. It also shows "1 Can Play" lit.

If I press the Start button, the game attempts to reset. The Score reels return to zero, but the Bonus Unit will not step down to reset position. The coil that steps the Bonus Unit down is not triggering at all. Because of this, the game constantly tries to reset in a loop.

If I manually decrease the Bonus Unit to zero position, the game will finish resetting and kick out the ball. After this, I have several issues as well:

1) Any time something that triggers the "10s" relay to pull, the Match Unit and 10 Point Relay will lock on and stay pulling. The 10s position Score Reel is NOT attempting to pull and is not sticking. Something else is causing the Match Unit and 10 Point Relay to pull and stay pulling

2) When the first ball drains, the game attempts to reset the drop targets and count down the Bonus, but gets stuck in a loop. The Drop Targets keep trying to reset over and over again. I believe this is connected to the Bonus Unit problem above, but I'm not sure.

EDIT: Small update - while inspecting the Bonus Unit Zero switch and wiring, I noticed that someone twisted it together with one of the wires from the Bonus Unit Step Up coil. The White-Green wire from the Bonus Unit Zero switch is twisted together with the Blue-Red wire of the BU Step Up Coil. Strange.

#12 3 years ago

Hi MaxAsh
You are right about "Night Rider does NOT have the 'Left Flipper Button turns-on the lights' feature" --- please read the end of post-10 - I edited / added remarks.

We NEED: When we toggle-on the pin - either the Game-Over-Relay is tripped --- or the pin makes (by us toggling-on) the Game-Over-Relay to trip. We toggle-on and we (must) see "Game Over" lit in the Backglass.

You press the Start-Button and the pin does reset the Score-Drums but does not reset the Bonus-Ladder. You are helpful and do manually reset the Bonus-Ladder and the pin happily proceeds and kicks-out the ball. Please be helpful for a while - we will come to this problem later.

"1) problem": see the "orange stuff in the JPG" - making 10 points is a co-working of the 10-Points-Relay AND the 10-Points-Score-Drum of "player in play" --- The pulling-in of the relay let current flow to the coil on the Score-Drum, ALSO: The pulling-in of the relay close a switch on the relay to keep the relay pulling UNTIL the traveling plunger on the Score-Drum opens a switch and this (opening the switch on the Score-Drum) CUT the "pulling of the relay". Not yet a fix - but good to learn: Look at the 10-Point-Score-Drum of Player-1--- when the plunger travels - at end of travel the plunger opens a switch - THIS Switch You open manually when the 10-Points-Relay is faulty always pulling --- question: Does this manually opening the switch makes the 10-Point-Relay and the Match Unit to quit pulling ?

"2) problem": I believe that EVERY ball kicked over to the shooter alley makes the Bonus-Unit step-up one position - means every new ball starts with ONE Bonus given --- when the pin serves the very first ball: Do You have ONE (You should have) Bonus given ? Or do You have ZERO Bonus ?

"Edit problem": For the moment: Let it as is - we will come to. I would like to fix the "1) problem" first so You can then play a bit. Greetings Rolf

0Night-Rider-Work-15 (resized).jpg

#13 3 years ago

EDIT/UPDATE - After posting the below, I checked the Player Up unit disc and found that the wiper associated with the 10 Point Score drum was not making good contact. I cleaned it and adjusted it, and now Problem #1 below is fixed! I will come back and update more in a bit after testing.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi MaxAsh
"1) problem": see the "orange stuff in the JPG" - making 10 points is a co-working of the 10-Points-Relay AND the 10-Points-Score-Drum of "player in play" --- The pulling-in of the relay let current flow to the coil on the Score-Drum, ALSO: The pulling-in of the relay close a switch on the relay to keep the relay pulling UNTIL the traveling plunger on the Score-Drum opens a switch and this (opening the switch on the Score-Drum) CUT the "pulling of the relay". Not yet a fix - but good to learn: Look at the 10-Point-Score-Drum of Player-1--- when the plunger travels - at end of travel the plunger opens a switch - THIS Switch You open manually when the 10-Points-Relay is faulty always pulling --- question: Does this manually opening the switch makes the 10-Point-Relay and the Match Unit to quit pulling ?

Hi Rolf - Yes, you are correct - when I manually push in the plunger for the 10-Points-Score-Drum in, it opens the switch and the 10-Point-Relay and Match Unit quit pulling. Since the 10 Point Score Drum isn't advancing, and the plunger not going in, that is why everything is getting stuck pulling, correct? If so, now I need to figure out why the 10 Pt Score Drum isn't pulling in.

"2) problem": I believe that EVERY ball kicked over to the shooter alley makes the Bonus-Unit step-up one position - means every new ball starts with ONE Bonus given --- when the pin serves the very first ball: Do You have ONE (You should have) Bonus given ? Or do You have ZERO Bonus ?
"Edit problem": For the moment: Let it as is - we will come to. I would like to fix the "1) problem" first so You can then play a bit. Greetings Rolf

You are correct, when the game is working properly, and a ball is kicked into the shooting lane, the game always gives you the first position bonus unit position automatically, and is lit up on the playfield. It looks like the game does this correctly, if I manually reset the bonus unit.

#14 3 years ago

Hi MaxAsh
I believe (for both of us) it is easyer to look at ONE problem - when fixed: Then look at the next problem. I had a busy day - here in Europe it is 20 minutes past eleven at night - I go to sleep. I hope to read tomorrow about Your findings and the problem You want to look at.
(When You start on the "Edit problem" - checking colors of wires in the schematics and in Your pin: At least write down somewhere WHAT was wired in Your pin - as the person working on that place did some thinking)
Till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

#15 3 years ago

Agreed, one problem at a time. Okay, so the issue with the 10 point relay, match unit and score reel is fixed. Let's move on to the next issue.

I believe our next issue is to focus on the Bonus Unit, and why it will not increase or decrease properly.

Here is a list of what I observed when starting from the beginning, now that the above issue is fixed:

A) Press power on switch, game lights come on, and game is in Game Over state (and Game Over light is lit as it should be)

B) Press Start Button, game attempts to reset. Score reels and drop targets reset. Bonus Unit does not reset, so the game gets stuck in reset loop. Manually decreasing Bonus Unit to zero position fixes this issue, and game starts as it should. Ball kicks into shooting lane and Ball In Play 1 light is lit.

C) Scoring seems to work fine, aside from Bonus. Hitting a target that is supposed to "Advance Bonus" does not do so. The scoring occurs, but the Bonus does not advance. I can see the Bonus Unit Step Up Coil moving slightly, so it appears to be trying to pull, but it cannot. I will check this more closely and clean it all tomorrow, however it seems to move freely when manually triggered. This makes me wonder if either the coil is bad, or that a related switch is not making good contact.

D) When the ball drains, the Bonus Unit does not step down. This causes the game to repeatedly score whatever the Bonus value is, over and over again. The only way to stop this is to manually decrease the Bonus Unit to reset position. If I do this the game will stop scoring and move to the next ball, as it should. If I do this each time the ball drains, the game will eventually go to Game Over, as it should when the final ball drains (and I manually decrease the Bonus Unit).

Sleep well, talk to you tomorrow, thank you for your help!

#16 3 years ago

Hi Rolf - I worked some more this morning, so here is my second update since last night. I have now solved Half of the Bonus Unit problem I believe:

"When the ball drains, the Bonus Unit does not step down" - I have fixed this issue. I traced the path between the Bonus Unit Reset coil and found a bad connection on the Double Bonus Relay. The sequence I followed was: Yellow-Red wire from Bonus Unit Reset coil to Bonus Relay switch. Then Blue-Yellow from Bonus Relay switch to Double Bonus Relay make/break switch. I found that the make/break on the Double Bonus was not making contact when it was supposed to be. I cleaned and adjusted the switches, and the Bonus Unit Reset now works. It counts down the proper bonus value when a ball drains, and awards it to the score.

I have two important issues now, which one would you like to discuss? I believe we continue with ONE problem, and focus on item #1 below. I just want to mention item #2 so I keep track of issues.

1) The Bonus Unit does not advance when the associated targets are hit on the playfield. It stays at the first award position (1000pt) and never advances. I will work on this now, and look for poor contacts/connections because I see the plunger moving slightly. It moves freely when manually pressed, so I believe it's not receiving the correct power (or possibly the coil is bad and not pulling hard enough).

2) When the first ball drains, the game advances to Ball In Play 2, but it gets stuck in a reset loop. The Drop Targets keep trying to reset over and over again, and the outhole kicker keeps firing even though the ball is already in the shooting lane. Odd behavior: If I manually hit a target on the playfield, the game will stop trying to reset the Drop targets, but the Ball In Play will advance to the next ball. If I hit another target, the ball will advance again and go to Game Over (it is set for 3 ball play). Very strange.

I will go work on the Bonus Unit step up issue now. Looking forward to your next post, thank you

#17 3 years ago

Hi MaxAsh
good news - You solved the Bonus Count Down feature.
Three ways to step-up on the Bonus-Unit - first way: Every ball given starts with ONE Bonus given --- in the JPG the pulling Outhole-Relay closes encircled green switch for a long time. The pulling of the Outhole-Relay makes the Score-Motor run --- at a specific time the SCM-6D (encircled blue) closes - the Bonus-Unit-Step-Up Coil fires.
Second way: The ball lands in the Top-Hole - this makes the Top-Hole-Relay pull-in, closing its switch (encircled orange) - stays pulling, makes the motor run etc.
Third way: You hit a Drop-Target - the Drop-Target-Relay is made pull-in, closing its switch (encircled orange) - stays pulling, makes the motor run etc.

When the Bonus step-up coil never actuates: "Simple jumpering, AAA: Toggle-off the pin and unplug the main power cord (Safety Reasons) - clip-on at Coil and lay the other end near "Transformer-Lug-Yellow" (two brownish-yellowish wires are soldered-on on the lug --- lay the jumper-wire-end NEAR the transformer-lug - the free end of the jumper-wire shall not touch metal.
Plug-in, toggle-on, start a game --- wait for resetting - wait for the ball to come --- pin idles --- then grab the jumper-wire on the insulation and tip-on at Transformer-Solder-Lug-Yellow - and retract from the lug - did the coil on the unit fire ?

The BBB shows using two jumper-wires - have them clipped-on - and the two free ends do not touch each other - do not touch metal --- when You come to testing: You grab the jumper-wires on the insulation and put together etc.
The CCC shows what I like: I have jumper-wires with an doorbell-push-button-switch mounted in the jumper-wire. I also have jumper-wires with an toggle-switch mounted in the jumper-wire.

Can You make the coil on the unit to fire ? Greetings Rolf

0Night-Rider-Work-16 (resized).jpg

#18 3 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi MaxAsh
When the Bonus step-up coil never actuates: "Simple jumpering, AAA: Toggle-off the pin and unplug the main power cord (Safety Reasons) - clip-on at Coil and lay the other end near "Transformer-Lug-Yellow" (two brownish-yellowish wires are soldered-on on the lug --- lay the jumper-wire-end NEAR the transformer-lug - the free end of the jumper-wire shall not touch metal.
Plug-in, toggle-on, start a game --- wait for resetting - wait for the ball to come --- pin idles --- then grab the jumper-wire on the insulation and tip-on at Transformer-Solder-Lug-Yellow - and retract from the lug - did the coil on the unit fire ?
Greetings Rolf

Hi Rolf - I performed the test AAA and the coil on the unit did fire. So now we know it works when the proper power reaches the coil. I will begin tracing the connections backwards to try and locate where the bad or broken connection may be. I'm going to guess one of the relay switches are not properly touching. Time to get out my meter and jumpers and get to work for a bit.

#19 3 years ago

Hi MaxAsh
the score-motor is drawn in the schematics at F-23. At C-21 is drawn "1E SCM." - a threebladed Make-and-Brake Switch on the sixth cam on the score-motor. You see the real motor - then comes cam-1 - then cam-2 - then 3,4,5,6 etc. Here http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=File:Bally_Motor_Switch_Levels.JPG bottom-up the levels A,B,C,D, please look-up in Your pin at cam-1 --- it would be nice when the cam-1 in Your pin has exactly (ABCDE) five MOVED BLADES - MEANS THE SCM-1E IS (IN Your pin) the topmost switch (I do not know). IF (if, if) it is:

When the pin is running after You have started a game and made some points - running but actually idling - TRY: Gently press down the top-most blade on cam-1 and after half of a second let go on the blade --- does this makes the motor to run - to make a turn of 180 degrees ? Would be nice --- would be very handy --- whenever You want a turn of the motor: You do this "pressing and then let go".
Check the SCM-6D --- wires soldered-on ? Greetings Rolf

#20 3 years ago

Hi Rolf - I will test the score motor as you stated later tonight, late your time. For now, here is what I discovered:

If I have the playfield lifted and propped up, the Bonus Unit Step Up coil works as it should. I can trigger the playfield switches to advance bonus, and it advances properly. When the playfield is down in normal playing position, the Bonus Unit will not step up. I can see it pulling, but it only pulls slightly, not enough to advance the unit. It is as if there is either not enough power to pull in the plunger, or the connection does not last long enough for the coil to pull. Very strange. The reason it seems to work when the playfield is lifted might be due to gravity assisting the coil. The plunger is pulling "down" into the coil when the playfield is lifted. When in normal position, it is pulling horizontally, towards the top of the playfield.

I checked and cleaned the Unit, the coil sleeve, and associated parts. Nothing is sticking and it all moves freely. For some reason there is not enough pull to completely pull in the plunger when the playfield is in playing position.

The springs seem to be fine, but as a test I reduced the spring tension slightly. It seems to have helped somewhat, as the plunger was able to pull in approximately 1 out of 10 tries. I do not think the springs are the issue, it seems like not enough power/connection time.

#21 3 years ago

Hi MaxAsh
a strange thing --- lifted playfield and "not lifted playfield". In this situation it would be good to do an "BBB" type of jumpering / testing. You have a jumper-wire coming from the coil on the unit - the jumper-wire comes out through the open coin-door. Also, the second jumper-wire coming from Lug-Yellow on the transformer - this second jumper-wire also comes out through the open coin-door. You have the playfield down - and do the test - connecting the ends of the jumper-wires "in the open" - and with the playfield down and doing the jumper-test-connection: How good is the action on the coil ?
Tomorrow I must get up early - so I go to sleep, till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

#22 3 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi MaxAsh
a strange thing --- lifted playfield and "not lifted playfield". In this situation it would be good to do an "BBB" type of jumpering / testing. You have a jumper-wire coming from the coil on the unit - the jumper-wire comes out through the open coin-door.

Good idea, I will do that next to see if it works with the playfield down. Good night, talk to you tomorrow.

#23 3 years ago

This probably won't be much help to you but just thought I'd mention I had an intermittent problem with my Night Rider, the slings would stop scoring. I would lift the playfield and they would work again for a bit even after lowering it, than stop again. I eventually traced it to a loose solder joint to a wire on one of the drop target banks. It looked okay but was actually barely connected on physical inspection.

#24 3 years ago

Thanks Swillie, you never know, I'll check that.

Hi Rolf - I did the "BBB" style testing as you suggested above, using a jumper from the transformer Yellow and a separate jumper from the Bonus Unit Step Up coil. I ran them through the coin door, lowered the playfield, and performed the test. Making the connect between the jumpers caused the Step Up coil to work perfectly, so we know that when power is properly applied, even with the playfield down, the coil works. My best guess is that one of the contacts or solder points between the transformer path and the coil are bad or intermittent. I will try to trace everything out and test it. If you have any other suggestions, please let me know.

Thanks

EDIT/UPDATE - I adjusted and cleaned the associated score motor switch, and the Bonus Unit is stepping up almost all of the time when it should now, however I seem to have caused another problem. Before I touched the score motor, the Ball In Play properly worked, and Ball Count Unit advanced when a ball drained. Now it is stuck on Ball 1. I'm concerned that I caused the issue, because as I was cleaning the score motor switch, I moved several of the 'bakelite' rotating pieces that are part of the score motor by accident. I may have slightly moved them out of alignment with each other... I'm not sure how to check that? Would that cause this kind of issue due to timing being off slightly?

#25 3 years ago

Hi Maxash
The transformer for sure is in the Cabinet - the Score-Motor for sure is in the Cabinet - the Bonus-Unit for sure is on the playfield (is it ?) - The Outhole-Relay I believe is in the Cabinet (is it ?)
Where is the Top-Hole-Relay ? Cabinet or Playfield or Backbox ?
Where is the Drop-Target-Relay ? Cabinet or Playfield or Backbox ?
When You look at Score-Motor-Cam-6-Switch-D --- is it possible for You to clip-on a Jumper-Wire at "lug-74-1" as a starting point / clip-on-point for a new jumpering (to Switch on Outhole-Relay) ?

The drawing of all schematics is "abstract / drawn beautyful" --- there is never an connecting wire and all of a suffen from that wire forks-off another wire connecting towards "third party". When You write answers to my questions above: I then can "redraw" the "abstract JPG in post-17". Greetings Rolf

#26 3 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Maxash
The transformer for sure is in the Cabinet - the Score-Motor for sure is in the Cabinet - the Bonus-Unit for sure is on the playfield (is it ?) - The Outhole-Relay I believe is in the Cabinet (is it ?)
Where is the Top-Hole-Relay ? Cabinet or Playfield or Backbox ?
Where is the Drop-Target-Relay ? Cabinet or Playfield or Backbox ?
When You look at Score-Motor-Cam-6-Switch-D --- is it possible for You to clip-on a Jumper-Wire at "lug-74-1" as a starting point / clip-on-point for a new jumpering (to Switch on Outhole-Relay) ?
The drawing of all schematics is "abstract / drawn beautyful" --- there is never an connecting wire and all of a suffen from that wire forks-off another wire connecting towards "third party". When You write answers to my questions above: I then can "redraw" the "abstract JPG in post-17". Greetings Rolf

Bonus Unit is under the Playfield
Outhole Relay, Top Hole Relay, Drop Target Relay are all in the cabinet body

Score Motor Cam Switch D is a little tough to get to, but I can probably figure out a way to clip a jumper on it.

Did you happen to see my edit/update in my last post? You may have been typing when I wrote it, I'm sorry.

#27 3 years ago

Hi MaxAsh
Yes - my post-25 is answer / reply to Your (original) post-24 - not realising You have added the last part "EDIT". So this my post-27 is answer / reply to Your "post-24 - EDIT section":

Look here http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=File:BallyScoreMotor3-4View.jpg - I see the bakelite cams --- many pins have an Service Jack to unplug / cut electricity to the real motor --- people sometimes unplug - then rotate the motor / cams by hand for doing a test.
In the picture I see bakelite stuff on the switchstacks --- WHAT is Your mentioned "bakelite rotating pieces" ?
"Stuck in Ball-1" means "You start a game for ONE Player - You get Ball-1, You play it - You (by jumpering) make some bonus - You loose the ball-1, Bonus is counted down - the pin kicks-out a ball to the shooter-alley - BUT it is again Ball-1. You play etc --- again Ball-1. Is this what happens ? Otherwise make an detailled description.

I will not write posts until I see Your answers to my questions above - once I know: I will write about new tests. Greetings Rolf

#28 3 years ago

You are correct, I am referring to the bakelite cams. I thought they were all locked together, but they can be individually moved, very slightly. While cleaning the switch contacts, I accidentally moved a few of the bakelite cams. I was concerned that the slight movement may have affected the timing of the motor.

Regarding stuck on Ball-1, yes that is exactly what is happening. You can play as you said, but when the ball drains and Bonus is counted, and ball kicks out again, the game stays on Ball-1. I have seen this many times before, but it is new behavior on this game, and only happened after I cleaned the Cam6 Switch D (and moved the cams by accident).

#29 3 years ago

Hi MaxAsh
the stepping-up on the Ball-Count-Unit is shown in the ipdb-schematics at schema-31,32,33-C,D,E,F - mainly the Score-Motor-Switch-3C. I would like to put aside the problem as I hope we can fix the other problem (stepping the Bonus up):

See the JPG - maybe in Your pin the wiring is as I show my imagination - wire-74-1 hops from Score-Motor-Switch-6D to a switch on a relay - hops further - hop, hop, hop.
Wire-21-2 hops from a switch on a relay to an switch on a relay - hop, hop, hop to SOCKET in the bottom of the Cabinet - a Jones-Plug - then in the bundle of wires the wire-21-2 runs up to the playfield and runs to the Coil on Bonus-Unit.

Locate in the cabinet the 19-Jones-Plug connecting upwards to the playfield - look for SOCKET of wire-21-2-wire-of-color-Blue-Red. Set an permanent*** jumper connecting the SOCKET to the coil.
Permanent***: Clip-on the jumper-wire at both sides - You do jumper an "old, existing, permanent connecting wire in the pin" --- "permanent jumper guarantees permanent connection on a wire mounted permanent connecting. Greetings Rolf
P.S.: You are troubleshooting - I hope for luck - but maybe You must jumper (Type AAA or BBB or CCC) "SCM-6D to Coil on Bonus-Unit" (?) - more to this if needed.

0Night-Rider-Work-17 (resized).jpg

#30 3 years ago

Hi MaxAsh
I had to get up early this morning --- by now it is a quarter to eleven at night - I go to sleep. Till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

#31 3 years ago

Thank you Rolf - I had to go out for a bit, so I did not get a chance to do the above suggestions. I will work on them tomorrow and let you know the results!

#32 3 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi MaxAsh
Locate in the cabinet the 19-Jones-Plug connecting upwards to the playfield - look for SOCKET of wire-21-2-wire-of-color-Blue-Red. Set an permanent*** jumper connecting the SOCKET to the coil.
Permanent***: Clip-on the jumper-wire at both sides - You do jumper an "old, existing, permanent connecting wire in the pin" --- "permanent jumper guarantees permanent connection on a wire mounted permanent connecting. Greetings Rolf

Hi Rolf - I added the jumper you suggested, and the Bonus Unit Step Up coil seems to be working properly with the jumper in place. I will check through the wiring and find the poor connection or fault, now that I know it's between those two points. Thank you!

The Ball Count is now my primary issue. It will not advance past Ball 1. If I manually advance the Ball Count Unit, it will show Ball 2 and Ball 3 as it should, eventually Game Over (game is set for 3 ball play currently). I checked the Score Motor Switch 3C and verified it is making contact and clean.

#33 3 years ago

Hi MaxAsh
great - with a jumpering the Bonus-problem is fixed. Maybe (maybe) a preowner was rude and handled the bundle of wires "not carefully" - one or maybe more wires have broken - INSIDE the fabric / insulation --- when You raise or lower the playfield - breakage shows up or dissapears. You may establish ( solder-on) a new permanent (jumper) wire to connect --- then make an good description "what You have done" and "why You have done" (?).

Problem "not stepping on the ball". I know the Ball-Count-Unit does not step in a ONE-Player-Game. I believe (to have read) the stepping on the Player-Unit in an MULTI-Player-Game (also) does not work.

Short description - in a running Night Rider You have made points therefore the Ball-Index-Relay is pulling - therefore "3-4" is closed, You have NOT made an Extraball so the Extraball-Relay is not pulling - so "5-6" is closed. In a 1,2,3,4-Player game it comes the time to do the stepping - ALWAYS TWO SHOTS of electricity are fired - the pulling Outhole-Relay makes the motor run, moves the threebladed switch - FIRST shot goes "1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8" then maybe some "9-10-11" maybe reaching "12". SECOND shot goes "1,2,3,4,5,6,21,22,23" - then maybe "24-25" or maybe "31-32".

When You have no stepping on the ball AND no stepping on the player: I believe the fault is in the "1,2,3,4,5,6,7,21". A (first) try is: Set an permanent jumper connecting "2 to 6". Another try could be "Type BBB or Type CCC" jumper "2 to 9a or 10a" --- the Ball-Count-Step-up-Coil then should fire (((fire faulty looooong in time - as long as the Outhole-Relay is pulling --- but You are testing and want information about 'does the coil fire' ))).

I feel uncomfortable - writing all the possible tests You can do using a permanent jumper-wire or doing the Type AAA or BBB or CCC way of jumper-testing. You should look at the schematics- "from where to where can I jumper, what do I expect - what tells me the pin with its reaction".

Long description: In an MULTI-Player-Game the Ball-Count-Step-up-Coil ONLY must fire when the LAST player has lost the ball. At this time (last player has lost the ball): ALSO the Player-RESET-Coil must fire. People may not know: Bally said: A ONE-Player-Game is an MULTI-Player-Game --- we let the Player-Unit-RESET-Coil also fire - the Unit happens to be in resetted position - another attempt to reset does no harm --- we implement this as it is easyer to implement.
A ONE-Player-Game: First shot is "1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,10a,11,12" - the Ball-Count-Step-up-Coil fires --- so the plunger on the unit travels - at end of travel the plunger closes "A-B" - the Player-Reset-Relay (C) pulls-in - closes "D-E" and stays pulling for a long time through "F-G". Not only "D-E" is closed - ALSO "23,24,31" is moved --- the second shot is fired "1,2,3,4,5,6,21,22,23,31,32" --- in an One-Player-Game not needed - but done: The Player-Unit is resetted.
A MULTI-Player-Game: First shot may not reach the "12" due to the settings on the Units - the "C" is not made pulling - so the "23,24,31" is not moved --- the second shot "1,2,3,4,5,6,2,22,23" then goes "24,25" - the Player-Unit steps to next player.
Greetings Rolf

0Night-Rider-Work-18 (resized).jpg

#34 3 years ago

Hi Rolf - thank you for all the good information!

I ran jumper "2 to 6" as suggested above and tried starting a game. The results were as follows:

1) Ball Count Unit properly advanced when the ball drained.

2) Player Up Unit now advancing when it should not. I had the game set to "1 can play" and every time a ball drained it would advance to the next player. It eventually stayed on Player 4 and did not reset. Now, when a new game is started, the game is stuck on Player 4 unless I manually reset it. However, it does play through normally as Player 4 only, and go to Game Over when the last ball drains.

I believe I should take apart, clean, and re-check the Player Up Unit, as it appears to not be resetting (manually I can see it is sticking slightly, which could be the cause of no reset).

#35 3 years ago

Hi MaxAsh
great - jumpering permanent "2-6" makes the Ball-Count-Unit step-up (((with this jumper You cannot gain Extraballs - please accept this for the moment))). Not so great: ALSO the Player-Unit steps-up. The second shot "1,2,3,4,5,6,21,22,23" then faulty runs "23,24,25" - it should run "23,31,32". The fault is: The "A,B,C,D,E,F,G - closing D-E and also moving "23-24 to 23-31" by "the relay C actuates" does not happen.
For a short while lets say "MaxAsh wants to play ONE-Player-Games and enjoy the pin" - maybe tomorrow or so: We say: Lets troubleshoot to make the pin fully running (?)

So what I suggest here is not a fix - I would like to cheat a bit so You can play ONE-Player-Games. In the ipdb-schematics at schema-1-D-E You see the coding of the wire colors. Locate on the Player-Reset-Relay the three-bladed Make-and-Brake-Switch (my 23,24,31). Sneak-in and secure a stripe of paper in-between the contact-points "23-24" (((the 'closed when not pulling' part of the switch) - have the stripe of paper sneaked-in and have the jumpering "2-6" --- then play ONE-Player-Games --- question: Can You play ONE-Player-Games ? Greetings Rolf

P.S. - Please: Wait with "taking apart the Player-Unit".

#36 3 years ago

Replying to your post #35

P.S. - Please: Wait with "taking apart the Player-Unit". - Sorry, I did this right away, but it's okay. It turns out that it was dirty, and also that the spring on the cog was loose (it was only wound one time) so there was not enough tension to reset the Unit. I cleaned everything and properly wound the cog spring, and the Unit is resetting properly now.

When I press Start ONE time for a ONE player game, here is what happens:

Game resets as it should, ball kicks to shooting lane, but Player Unit skips Player-1-Ball-1 and instead Advances to Player-2-Ball-1. The game then works perfectly as if it were in a FOUR player game. It rotates through all Players, including Player 1, playing each ball, draining, and advancing in FOUR player game. The only ball that is skipped is Player-1-Ball-1. When Player-4-Ball-3 drains, the game ends.

I will now go and perform your "cheat a bit" suggestion to see if it allows me to play a ONE-Player-Game.

#37 3 years ago

"Sneak-in and secure a stripe of paper in-between the contact-points "23-24""

I just did as you instructed, and had strange results. The game stayed on Player 1 as you predicted, but now the Ball Count Unit has stopped advancing again. My jumper from "2 to 6" is still in place, but it is no longer making the Ball Count Unit advance. I am now stuck on Player 1-Ball 1 again, with the paper and jumper both in place.

#38 3 years ago

Hi MaxAsh
take away the jumper "2-6" and take away the sneaked-in stripe of paper.
You have cleaned the Player-Unit - please look at the Coin-Unit - DOES the Coin-Unit RESET when You start a brand-new game ? Or does the Unit faulty stick in "4-Player-Mode" and does not reset ? Do You have jumper-wires with insulated gator-clips ? Make sure the Coin-Unit is resetted - then start a game maybe for one player - or for 2,3,4 players - THEN (with the pin running) establish jumper "2-6". Then do tests and write about the results. I will read them by tomorrow - the "time-gap" between Europe and the USA is a bit awful - I happen to be tired - I go to sleep. (Then) A new day and another try to completely fix Your pin. Greetings Rolf

#39 3 years ago

Hi Rolf, yes, I have insulated jumpers/clips for safety.

" please look at the Coin-Unit - DOES the Coin-Unit RESET when You start a brand-new game"

- Yes, the Coin-Unit DOES Reset when I start a new game. I double-checked this by manually advancing it to the next position while the pin was off, then turned the pin on. The "2 Can Play" was lit instead of "1 Can Play". I started a new game. The Coin-Unit Reset properly and "1 Can Play" was lit. So it definitely resets when a new game is started.

"take away the jumper "2-6" and take away the sneaked-in stripe of paper."

- I removed the jumper 2-6 and the paper and started a new game. The game started with Player-1 Ball-1, and then played a FOUR Player game, all the way through from beginning to end, with all balls being played, and ending with Game Over after Player-4 Ball-3 drained.

"then start a game maybe for one player - or for 2,3,4 players - THEN (with the pin running) establish jumper "2-6". Then do tests and write about the results."

- I started a new ONE player game, and with pin on established jumper "2-6" as instructed. The game played the same as described above, a complete FOUR player game.

It looks like the Ball Count Unit issue is resolved, so now we need figure out why the game is stuck in a full 4 Player game.

We are getting close! Sleep well.

#40 3 years ago

UPDATE! I took apart and cleaned the Coin Unit, reassembled, and now the game is working properly! I believe one of the connections was bad/dirty on the wiper blades. After shining everything up and cleaning it, the game properly tracks the number of players and Balls in Play. I played ONE Player, as well and TWO, THREE Player and FOUR Player games. No issues that I could tell. There are still some problems I need to work out, but the main issues are solved I think.

I will do some more tests tomorrow, but this one may be solved. I will return with any problems I find as I work on it tomorrow. Thank you Rolf and everyone that offered advice!

3 years later
#41 3 months ago

Thanks Rolf. 3 years later and your help in this post is still valuable. I just solved a ball count issue on my Night Rider with your info posted in #33. Started down the line and found a mis-adjusted switch on the outhole relay. Grateful for your detailed tech savvy.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside