Night Rider EM start up problem

Quoted from xsvtoys:
Sounds good. 2 more questions for you. You say that after the game is started, if a 10 point score switch is hit then the 10 point relay energizes and stays energized, but the ball index relay does not energize and the score does not change. Under that same condition:
- do you hear a chime from the 10 point chime?
- does the 00-90 unit move? This is also called the match unit.
These are 2 other functions that are activated by switches on the 10 point relay. If the 10 point relay is energized then both of these should occur.

Nothing is activated when the 10, 100, or 1000 point relays pull in.

This comment of yours "There is a switch on the 10 point relay with a yellow wire and a white/brown wire that should close as soon as the 10 point relay is energized, as shown by the red line. This will energize the ball index relay as shown by the green circuit." got me thinking that maybe the white/brown wire somehow isn't getting power back to the ball index relay. So I carefully scrutinized the white/brown and found that the wire insulation was wearing away in one part where a zip tie was too tight so I thought maybe that was screwing it up. I taped it with electrical tape and when that didn't help I replaced the whole wire running from the 1000 point relay to the female end of the jones plug. Unfortunately. that didn't help either. So then I ran a jumper from the brown/white lug on the 1000 point relay to the lug on the ball index relay and then actuated the 1000 point relay and nothing happened. Then I touched the jumper to another lug on the 1000 point relay and that caused the ball index relay to pull in. So I guess I don't really understand what's going on/ I thought when the 1000 point relay(or any other) was pulled in, a connection would be made that would send a signal to the ball index relay to pull in. By that logic I assumed that putting a jumper on the lug of those switches would accomplish the same thing, but it didn't. So am I just misunderstanding how it works, or power just not ever getting to that lug/switch?

Rolf, I ran out of time and wasn't able to work through all your questions yet. When I saw the frayed wire I thought for sure that was the problem and then devoted all of my effort to that.

Thanks

#52 7 years ago

►♠◄

Pin-it

Inactive member

Sunbury, PA

11y 64,900 7,217

Not sure if you had explored this or others suggested ?

OP
Quoted from Topcard:
The tilt relay is not closing when the game starts or when the outhole relay is actuated, however if i push the tilt relay closed it will stay closed and energize the ball index relay as well.

Ok, normal that the index pulls in when tilted ,that tells us the coil is good.

Try this w/machine off → run a gator jumper from the coil tab ( the one i labeled Neg - ) to the #30 yellow return path , then turn it on.

ball_index_re._(resized).JPG
Make sure its not the opposite tab which is the power source coil tab ( wire = red w/green tracer → labeled red + in my snip ) or you will get a direct short to return wire.

It should pull now. If it does and it should i would investigate the outhole make and break contact as seen in snip.

#53 7 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi Topcard
Your post-51 "touched the Jumper to another Lug on the 1000 Point Relay etc." - would be interesting to read WHAT LUG. Hard to tell by the color of wires.
A trick to locate that other Switch: Sneak-in a stripe of paper into THAT OTHER SWITCH to insulate / keep open the switch - then play the pin - WHAT FUNCTION does no longer work ? So we can clue "THAT OTHER SWITCH IS ..." and then locate "THAT OTHER SWITCH" in the schematics and look why Your jumpering works.

I show here an EXAMPLE*** how "in reality in the pin" the wiring is --- as schematics are an abstract / made beautyful - the schematics are NOT an exploded view.
Example***: I just made myself a drawing so the flow of electricity is "as in the original drawing". Greetings Rolf

0Night-Rider-pinside-work1_(resized).jpg

#54 7 years ago

PEB

Topcard

Pinside+ Frequent

Okay, so I was able to work on it again for a little while today. Just to be sure, I once again swapped heads with my other Night Rider and it ran perfect, so the problem has to be in the head. It seems likely it would be the player unit, but it seems fine to me. Here's some pictures of the front and back of the player units of both machines in the one player first ball position. Maybe you guys can see something I can't.

IMG_2592_(resized).JPG

IMG_2593_(1)_(resized).JPG

IMG_2595_(resized).JPG

IMG_2596_(1)_(resized).JPG

#55 7 years ago

PEB

Topcard

Pinside+ Frequent

The top two are from the head of the malfunctioning game, the bottom to are from the working head. I would have put them side by side for comparison but couldn't figure out how to do it.

#56 7 years ago

XSV

xsvtoys

Pinside member

Jones plugs all look good too?

The only thing I see different is that the contact traces on the top one are pretty grimy. It doesn't seem like enough to cause these problems, but it is pretty easy to clean up with some alcohol. Then the thinnest tiniest possible amount of super lube on top.

#57 7 years ago

PEB

Topcard

Pinside+ Frequent

Jones plugs are fine. I'll clean the unit better, but I doubt that's it. It steps fine and I also applied pressure while manually actuating it in case it wasn't making good contact, but it didn't make a difference.

#58 7 years ago

XSV

xsvtoys

Pinside member

Running out of ideas from the schematic. I would like to go back to observations to try to find clues. First let's see if I have everything right.

After pressing credit button everything resets normally. Scores all reset to zero, ball count goes to 1, player up goes to 1, play meter advances, game over lamp goes off, ball kicks into shooter lane.

The flippers are now active and they are always active.

If the ball is launched onto the playfield, the pop bumpers kick it, the rebound kickers work, the flippers work, but nothing ever scores.

If a 10s playfield switch is hit, the 10 point relay energizes and it stays energized, but there is no score advance, no chime, and the ball index relay doesn't energize.

The 100 and 1000 playfield switches and the 100 and 1000 point relays act the same as the 10s.

If you manually press either the 10, 100, or 1000 point relays they energize and stay closed, but again nothing happens.

If you manually press the ball index relay, it energizes and stays energized, and from that point all of the scoring and the chimes work as expected.

Q the ball index relay is not in the back box, it is in the bottom cabinet, is that right?

#59 7 years ago

PEB

Topcard

Pinside+ Frequent

Quoted from xsvtoys:
Running out of ideas from the schematic. I would like to go back to observations to try to find clues. First let's see if I have everything right.
After pressing credit button everything resets normally. Scores all reset to zero, ball count goes to 1, player up goes to 1, play meter advances, game over lamp goes off, ball kicks into shooter lane.
The flippers are now active and they are always active.
If the ball is launched onto the playfield, the pop bumpers kick it, the rebound kickers work, the flippers work, but nothing ever scores.
If a 10s playfield switch is hit, the 10 point relay energizes and it stays energized, but there is no score advance, no chime, and the ball index relay doesn't energize.
The 100 and 1000 playfield switches and the 100 and 1000 point relays act the same as the 10s.
If you manually press either the 10, 100, or 1000 point relays they energize and stay closed, but again nothing happens.
If you manually press the ball index relay, it energizes and stays energized, and from that point all of the scoring and the chimes work as expected.
Q the ball index relay is not in the back box, it is in the bottom cabinet, is that right?

Yes, the ball index relay is in the bottom cabinet. Your description of the chain of events is accurate. The only thing I would add is that after the ball index relay has been activated, when the ball drains, the problem reoccurs on every subsequent balls.

#60 7 years ago

XSV

xsvtoys

Pinside member

OK, how about this one:

You start a new game. You shoot the first ball, but it is a total non-score shot - that is, it goes up and over onto the playfield then drains without hitting a single target. It would be easiest to simulate this one manually. When it lands in the outhole, it should kick right back out in the shooter lane and the ball in play light should stay the same. Does that work OK?

And:

Under the scenario you described above where you have manually activated the ball index relay, when the ball drains and kicks out, does the ball in play lamp advance by one or does it stay on the first ball?

And:

How about if you press credit twice for a 2-player game. And then before doing anything manually advance the player unit from player 1 up to player 2 up by carefully pushing its solenoid (as opposed to yanking on the disc), and then trying it as player 2. Does everything act the same when you are on player 2?

Just looking for some possible clues from behaviors to go from. What is happening doesn't seem to make any sense when looking at the schematic, to me anyway. But there MUST be an explanation somewhere.

#61 7 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi Topcard, xsvtoys +
as xsvtoys I am stumped - a non-pleasing miracle. Maybe there is an alteration in the wiring and we all look at the schematics and say "I do not see HOW ...".

I refer to post-9, last picture, on the left: The Ball-Index-Relay with one Normally-Closed Switch and 3 Normally-Open Switches. In post-41, first JPG I put numbers on the switches, in the second JPG I made the assignement "Switch-1-is-(shown in the schematics at)-E-24", in the third JPG I made the assignement "Switch-4-is-G-10". In post-48 I clue "Switch-3-is-D-31" and so "Switch-2-is-H-30".

xsvtoys shows in post-47 (JPGs): In the schematics we do NOT see how the strange thing can be explained - "Ball-Index-Relay is not pulling then a manually activated 10 point relay sticks / stays pulling forever" --- but with "Ball-Index-Relay steady pulling: EVERYTHING WORKS". (((very, very strange)))

Maybe Topcard can isolate / separate WHICH switch causes this strange variation in behaviour (?). Please sneak-in a stripe of paper into "Switch-2-is-H-30" - the switch can move BUT NEVER closes. Then activate the Ball-Index-Relay and try the 10 point Relay - AAA: 10 point relay works good, functions as we want it, You happily can play --- clue: "Switch-2-is-H-30" is NOT responsible for the very strange non-pleasing phenomena. BBB: 10 point relay sticks - clue: "Switch-2-is-H-30" IS RESPONSIBLE - we must investigate in switch and wiring.

IF (if) You have "AAA": Then take-out the stripe of paper and do test with stripe of paper in "Switch-3-is-D-31". And the same thinking applying to the results.

IF (if) .... keep "Switch-1-is-E-24" manipulated-close etc. ...

I do NOT have an explanation on the non-pleasing mystery - I just would like to narrow down on the problem so we can say THIS SWITCH and THESE WIRES are responsible for "10 point relay sticks or not-sticks-everything-works". Greetings Rolf

#62 7 years ago

BLM

wizardblom

Pinside member

's-heer Hendrikskinderen

11y 56,650 411 8 19

Look for a broken wire on one of the counters, the common line is broken somewhere.
Easiest way is to jumper it from another unit on to one of the counters.
You can't get current through without a common line.
That's the only thing I can think of because of all the counters being "dead" and the problem sitting in the head of the machine.

#63 7 years ago

XSV

xsvtoys

Pinside member

Quoted from wizardblom:
Look for a broken wire on one of the counters, the common line is broken somewhere.
Easiest way is to jumper it from another unit on to one of the counters.
You can't get current through without a common line.
That's the only thing I can think of because of all the counters being "dead" and the problem sitting in the head of the machine.

But the weird thing is that all of the score counters reset to zero for the startup procedure, so they do seem to function OK.

#64 7 years ago

PEB

Topcard

Pinside+ Frequent

Quoted from xsvtoys:
OK, how about this one:
You start a new game. You shoot the first ball, but it is a total non-score shot - that is, it goes up and over onto the playfield then drains without hitting a single target. It would be easiest to simulate this one manually. When it lands in the outhole, it should kick right back out in the shooter lane and the ball in play light should stay the same. Does that work OK?

Yes

And:
Under the scenario you described above where you have manually activated the ball index relay, when the ball drains and kicks out, does the ball in play lamp advance by one or does it stay on the first ball?

It advances

And:
How about if you press credit twice for a 2-player game. And then before doing anything manually advance the player unit from player 1 up to player 2 up by carefully pushing its solenoid (as opposed to yanking on the disc), and then trying it as player 2. Does everything act the same when you are on player 2?

Yes,same problem.

Just looking for some possible clues from behaviors to go from. What is happening doesn't seem to make any sense when looking at the schematic, to me anyway. But there MUST be an explanation somewhere.

#65 7 years ago

PEB

Topcard

Pinside+ Frequent

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:
Hi Topcard, xsvtoys +
as xsvtoys I am stumped - a non-pleasing miracle. Maybe there is an alteration in the wiring and we all look at the schematics and say "I do not see HOW ...".
I refer to post-9, last picture, on the left: The Ball-Index-Relay with one Normally-Closed Switch and 3 Normally-Open Switches. In post-41, first JPG I put numbers on the switches, in the second JPG I made the assignement "Switch-1-is-(shown in the schematics at)-E-24", in the third JPG I made the assignement "Switch-4-is-G-10". In post-48 I clue "Switch-3-is-D-31" and so "Switch-2-is-H-30".
xsvtoys shows in post-47 (JPGs): In the schematics we do NOT see how the strange thing can be explained - "Ball-Index-Relay is not pulling then a manually activated 10 point relay sticks / stays pulling forever" --- but with "Ball-Index-Relay steady pulling: EVERYTHING WORKS". (((very, very strange)))
Maybe Topcard can isolate / separate WHICH switch causes this strange variation in behaviour (?). Please sneak-in a stripe of paper into "Switch-2-is-H-30" - the switch can move BUT NEVER closes. Then activate the Ball-Index-Relay and try the 10 point Relay - AAA: 10 point relay works good, functions as we want it, You happily can play --- clue: "Switch-2-is-H-30" is NOT responsible for the very strange non-pleasing phenomena. BBB: 10 point relay sticks - clue: "Switch-2-is-H-30" IS RESPONSIBLE - we must investigate in switch and wiring.
IF (if) You have "AAA": Then take-out the stripe of paper and do test with stripe of paper in "Switch-3-is-D-31". And the same thinking applying to the results.
IF (if) .... keep "Switch-1-is-E-24" manipulated-close etc. ...
I do NOT have an explanation on the non-pleasing mystery - I just would like to narrow down on the problem so we can say THIS SWITCH and THESE WIRES are responsible for "10 point relay sticks or not-sticks-everything-works". Greetings Rolf

Rolf,

Since everything is fine with the other head in place, does it make sense to keep isolating switches on the ball index relay? I think I identified all their functions previously. If someone can tell me from the schematics what wire going into and out of the player unit that ultimately activates the ball index relay, perhaps I could trace those wires in search of a break.
Thanks

#66 7 years ago

BLM

wizardblom

Pinside member

's-heer Hendrikskinderen

11y 56,650 411 8 19

Quoted from xsvtoys:
But the weird thing is that all of the score counters reset to zero for the startup procedure, so they do seem to function OK.

Could be the common on the player unit, makes the counters get current induvidualy.
Reset comes from the scoremotor contacts.
You cleaned the contacts on that unit, but are the wires intact?
Also on the back of the unit?

#67 7 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi Topcard
lets put the mystery aside. Lets look at "Switch on pulling 10-Point-Relay shall send current to Coil on Ball-Index-Relay". xsvtoys shows in post-47, second JPG - "highlighted green" the connection. The wire-color-56-1-White-Brown starts at "Switch on 10-Point-Relay" AND starts at "Switch on 100-Point-Relay" AND starts at "Switch on 1000-Point-Relay" - they come together and ONE wire-color-56-1-White-Brown runs to a Jones-Plug.
I look-up in the ipdb-schematic where the Jones-Plugs are shown --- an "11 plus 11 = 22 Mounting Board to Insert Jones-Plug" - see it in the schematics ?
Look it up in Your pin.

May want to use a loooong Jumper-Wire ? The "Coil on Ball-Index-Relay" has soldered-on Wire-color-15-Red-White. The other side of the coil has a short wire running to "Switch mounted on the relay": THIS SIDE. Clip-on Your loooong Jumper-Wire at "THIS SIDE" and take the Jumper-Wire all around to the Backbox to "Switch on 10-Point-Relay".
"Switch on 10-Point-Relay" has soldered-on (AAA) wire-color-30-Yellow and has soldered-on (BBB) wire-color-561-1-White-Brown.
If You tip-on the gator-clip of Your Jumper-Wire at AAA: Ball-Index-Relay should pull-in immediately (and stay pulling through its own Self-Hold-Switch).
If You tip-on the gator-clip of Your Jumper-Wire at BBB: Ball-Index-Relay should not pull-in --- but when You activate the 10-Point-Relay THEN the Ball-Index-Relay should pull-in through the closing switch on 10-Point-Relay.

Lets hope You can activate the Ball-Index-Relay and we do not have to broad about the mystery. Greetings Rolf

#68 7 years ago

PEB

Topcard

Pinside+ Frequent

Quoted from xsvtoys:
OK, how about this one:
You start a new game. You shoot the first ball, but it is a total non-score shot - that is, it goes up and over onto the playfield then drains without hitting a single target. It would be easiest to simulate this one manually. When it lands in the outhole, it should kick right back out in the shooter lane and the ball in play light should stay the same. Does that work OK?
Yes
And:
Under the scenario you described above where you have manually activated the ball index relay, when the ball drains and kicks out, does the ball in play lamp advance by one or does it stay on the first ball?
It advances
And:
How about if you press credit twice for a 2-player game. And then before doing anything manually advance the player unit from player 1 up to player 2 up by carefully pushing its solenoid (as opposed to yanking on the disc), and then trying it as player 2. Does everything act the same when you are on player 2?
Yes,same problem.

#69 7 years ago

BLM

wizardblom

Pinside member

's-heer Hendrikskinderen

11y 56,650 411 8 19

Ball index is triggered by a contact on 10, 100 or 1000 relay.
If they are not pulled in index won't either.
Tilting the game also makes the index pull in.

#70 7 years ago

XSV

xsvtoys

Pinside member

Quoted from wizardblom:
Ball index is triggered by a contact on 10, 100 or 1000 relay.
If they are not pulled in index won't either.
Tilting the game also makes the index pull in.

Right, the thing is, the 10, 100, or 1000 relays ARE pulling in. They are pulling in and staying locked. And somehow never advancing the score reel, sounding the chime, or energizing the ball index relay. Its very strange.

#71 7 years ago

PEB

Topcard

Pinside+ Frequent

So I hate to give up on a game, but this one has just taken too much of my time. I already have one Night Rider and the reason I bought this one is because it had a NOS playfield in it. My plan was to quickly swap out the playfield and relist the machine the next day. Unfortunately it didn't work out that way as the machine had these mechanical problems and its now been a month and 40 plus hours of my time and its still not operating properly. At this point I just need to cut my losses and move on.

I want to thank all of you who offered suggestions, in particular Rolf and xsvtoys. And while we weren't able to fix the machine, I still donated $50 to Pinside to show my gratitude. I will ask whoever buys the machine and repairs it to post the solution here or email me so I can post it. At least then we will know the answer to the mystery.

Thanks

#72 7 years ago

XSV

xsvtoys

Pinside member

Topcard, sorry to hear this. I studied that schematic front to back until I practically had it memorized. I wish I could have helped figure this out. But in the end it didn't seem that the behavior of the machine made sense in comparison to the schematic. For my next suggestion I was pretty much down to a close visual comparison back and forth between the good and bad back boxes. I have a feeling you did that already.

I'll bet that when the problem finally is discovered it will be something really simple and obvious and we will just be kicking ourselves for not finding it.

#73 7 years ago

PEB

Topcard

Pinside+ Frequent

Quoted from xsvtoys:
Topcard, sorry to hear this. I studied that schematic front to back until I practically had it memorized. I wish I could have helped figure this out. But in the end it didn't seem that the behavior of the machine made sense in comparison to the schematic. For my next suggestion I was pretty much down to a close visual comparison back and forth between the good and bad back boxes. I have a feeling you did that already.
I'll bet that when the problem finally is discovered it will be something really simple and obvious and we will just be kicking ourselves for not finding it.

I agree. Given it was running prior to transport, its no doubt the simplest thing. Probably a loose wire that I just can see, even though I spent hours scrutinizing them. I do look forward to hearing what it was, just to satisfy my own curiosity.

Thanks again for your help.

Peter

1 month later

#74 7 years ago

PEB

Topcard

Pinside+ Frequent

So I still haven't sold the machine and tonight I was feeling ambitious, so I put on some magnifying glasses and grabbed a flashlight and for what seemed like the thousandths time I started examining all the wires in the backbox. But for some reason, this time I noticed what looked like a cold solder joint on the #1 reset relay. On this relay there is a type of bar instead of a wire that connects several switches by being soldered at each one. At this particular switch there was a cold solder joint and sure enough the bar was no longer making good contact. I pulled out my soldering iron and five minutes later everything was working fine. I can't believe I probably spent easily over 30 hours trying to figure out what was wrong and then snap, just like that it was fixed in five minutes. I'm not sure what the moral of the story here is, except that maybe I was too focused on loose or cut wires and it never occurred to me to check those bars running through the relays. I've posted a couple of photos, though they really don't make it that easy to see. Thanks again to all who helped!

IMG_2820 (resized).JPG

IMG_2825 (resized).JPG

#75 7 years ago

XSV

xsvtoys

Pinside member

In the end it had to be something simple. Just so hard to find! It must have been such that it was an intermittent connection, and that led us down so many false paths.

Glad you got it going!

#76 7 years ago

PEB

Topcard

Pinside+ Frequent