(Topic ID: 227289)

Night Moves completely dead after Ground Mod! ~SOLVED~

By Isochronic_Frost

5 years ago


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  • 29 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by Frax
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 5 years ago

Hello fellow Pinsiders!

I’m in a serious pinch. I finally came around to doing the proper grounding mod on my beloved Night Moves cocktail pin. I’ve had it for about a year now, and it had no music. The grounding issue apparently fried the music chip. It was causing humming out of the speaker as well.
The game played fine. Completely and totally perfect aside from no music.

Now after performing the mods and tying then ground directly to the transformer, my game won’t boot at all!!
It doesn’t coin up or go into test mode! I’ve referred to some folks very experienced with Sys80B and they can’t figure it out either!

My display doesn’t light AT ALL. Very very rarely out of over a dozen times powering it on, I’ll get garbage on the display and it flickers pretty badly, almost as if it’s gonna go out.

Any help or tips would be appreciated! I miss my Night Moves and regret doing the mod now

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#2 5 years ago

Wow. Sorry to hear. Did you double check all your work? Is it something simple like a fuse? Did you do any board work, or just at the grounding plate?

#3 5 years ago
Quoted from Luckydogg420:

Wow. Sorry to hear. Did you double check all your work? Is it something simple like a fuse? Did you do any board work, or just at the grounding plate?

I did, I re-crimped some questionable connections and checked all the fuses! All good. Connections appear good. I no longer have the ground loop on the soundboard, no speaker hum so I know it either has been grounded or has found a new path. How can I verify it is properly grounding or find if the ground is going through the display now somehow?? The only thing I changed was the grounding so this is so strange. I am pretty sad about it...

#4 5 years ago
Quoted from Isochronic_Frost:

I did, I re-crimped some questionable connections and checked all the fuses! All good. Connections appear good. I no longer have the ground loop on the soundboard, no speaker hum so I know it either has been grounded or has found a new path. How can I verify it is properly grounding or find if the ground is going through the display now somehow?? The only thing I changed was the grounding so this is so strange. I am pretty sad about it...

First things first, instead of guessing - get a DMM/Voltmeter and check all your supply voltages. In fact, it's probably not the ground mod at all, you might have disturbed a weak connection somewhere, or this could be entirely coincidence.

#5 5 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

First things first, instead of guessing - get a DMM/Voltmeter and check all your supply voltages. In fact, it's probably not the ground mod at all, you might have disturbed a weak connection somewhere, or this could be entirely coincidence.

I have one, where do I check the voltages? There are no test points on the boards so I'm unfamiliar with how to check them. I'd appreciate some detailed help!

#6 5 years ago

First verify that the voltages are present on the fuse outputs and bridge rectifiers. Then we can look downstream and see what might be getting lost - if any. Still could always be something else.

gbfuse (resized).JPGgbfuse (resized).JPG
#7 5 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

First verify that the voltages are present on the fuse outputs and bridge rectifiers. Then we can look downstream and see what might be getting lost - if any. Still could always be something else.
[quoted image]

How to I measure these voltages on the fuse outputs and bridge rectifier? Do I just put the probe on the leads? I'm not familiar with exactly how where I measure them.

#8 5 years ago

Most are AC voltages. You'll measure across each transformer secondary winding by putting one probe on the side marked as a return. You can use the 3-digit wire color codes to find where they go. Then the other probe take the measurement off each side of the fuse on the hot side of the winding. This will verify you are getting power to the fuse, the return side is there and the fuse is good. Example: the 12 volt winding has its return on pin 4 of the transformer output, color code 644=blue with two yellow stripes for the first probe, F1 1/2A is the fuse on the hot side.

The center taps are a little tricker, basically measure from the center tap to either end of the winding. The center tap for 8.4VAC at the top is pin 7, but watch out for the center tap on the 6.3VAC because it is actually pin 12.

Change to DC to measure the bridge rectifier outputs. Negative (black) probe on the - side of the bridge (wire color 9=white) to the + side of the bridge rectifiers.

#9 5 years ago

Pin out your ground mods with a Dmm on buzz tone. Go from the lugs you screwed to the metal or the metal itself. To the ground plains of each of the boards.

And this might help you with voltages.
And some other 80b issues.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/hollywood-heat-sound-issues

#10 5 years ago
Quoted from erak:

Pin out your ground mods with a Dmm on buzz tone. Go from the lugs you screwed to the metal or the metal itself. To the ground plains of each of the boards.
And this might help you with voltages.
And some other 80b issues.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/hollywood-heat-sound-issues

So I found out my DMM doesn’t have a buzz tone, That stinks

Not sure how else to do this...

Quoted from wayout440:

Most are AC voltages. You'll measure across each transformer secondary winding by putting one probe on the side marked as a return. You can use the 3-digit wire color codes to find where they go. Then the other probe take the measurement off each side of the fuse on the hot side of the winding. This will verify you are getting power to the fuse, the return side is there and the fuse is good. Example: the 12 volt winding has its return on pin 4 of the transformer output, color code 644=blue with two yellow stripes for the first probe, F1 1/2A is the fuse on the hot side.
The center taps are a little tricker, basically measure from the center tap to either end of the winding. The center tap for 8.4VAC at the top is pin 7, but watch out for the center tap on the 6.3VAC because it is actually pin 12.
Change to DC to measure the bridge rectifier outputs. Negative (black) probe on the - side of the bridge (wire color 9=white) to the + side of the bridge rectifiers.

I appreciated your in-depth answer but I couldn’t understand what you meant once I was looking at the transformer. I tried following wires but serveral of them that came off a tab of the transformer did not ever meet at the fuse panel.
As for secondary/center and such, I couldn’t figure that out either. Do these start from the outside and go inwards??

I’m trying to understand all this stuff, maybe there’s some fundamental base I’m not getting?

I measured my 5volt in several different places and referred to the pins mentioned in the schematics and I consistently got a reading of -0.03 which didn’t make sense to me. I also got a reading of -.37 when I adjusted to a lower setting and I don’t understand why my 5v is reading as a low negative value. I adjusted the pot back and forth and that just made switch between -.37 and -.36

I really don’t know what the heck I’m doing wrong here :/ this is frustrating!

#11 5 years ago
Quoted from Isochronic_Frost:

So I found out my DMM doesn’t have a buzz tone, That stinks
Not sure how else to do this...

I appreciated your in-depth answer but I couldn’t understand what you meant once I was looking at the transformer. I tried following wires but serveral of them that came off a tab of the transformer did not ever meet at the fuse panel.
As for secondary/center and such, I couldn’t figure that out either. Do these start from the outside and go inwards??
I’m trying to understand all this stuff, maybe there’s some fundamental base I’m not getting?
I measured my 5volt in several different places and referred to the pins mentioned in the schematics and I consistently got a reading of -0.03 which didn’t make sense to me. I also got a reading of -.37 when I adjusted to a lower setting and I don’t understand why my 5v is reading as a low negative value. I adjusted the pot back and forth and that just made switch between -.37 and -.36
I really don’t know what the heck I’m doing wrong here :/ this is frustrating!

The buzz tone is just an indicator that you can listen to for checking continuity. The ohms/resistance setting is another way to measure continuity. Low ohms almost near O is a good connection and has continuity. High ohms, there is not continuity. Don't be too hard on yourself...you just lack a lot of basic electronics knowledge. I went to two electronics trade schools and have a lifetime of electronics background. Its also not easy to teach basic electronics over a forum like this. It goes a lot smoother if you already have some fundamental knowledge of basic electronics under your belt. You might want to close up the game and do some reading or coursework on electronics before getting back into it.

#12 5 years ago

I am by no stretch of the imagination an expert on Sys 80b games .... ..... but I'll throw in my thoughts ...

I recently had a Night Moves issue , the 5v was super low and so it wasn't booting. After some head scratching and metering I found that the ground connection from the 12v bridge was bad. Remade the connection and all good again.

I wonder if during your ground modding a connection has been missed, needs redoing ? It's straightforward enough to check continuity from bridge to the ground connection.

#13 5 years ago

+12 is fed to the power supply board to create the +5VDC. Measure from pin 1 to pin 4 on J1 power supplty to see if +12VDC is present.

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#14 5 years ago
Quoted from Ive:

I am by no stretch of the imagination an expert on Sys 80b games .... ..... but I'll throw in my thoughts ...
I recently had a Night Moves issue , the 5v was super low and so it wasn't booting. After some head scratching and metering I found that the ground connection from the 12v bridge was bad. Remade the connection and all good again.
I wonder if during your ground modding a connection has been missed, needs redoing ? It's straightforward enough to check continuity from bridge to the ground connection.

Which part is bridge that I'm supposed to be measuring from?

#15 5 years ago
Quoted from Isochronic_Frost:

Which part is bridge that I'm supposed to be measuring from?

I suggest measuring at the connector mentioned above, for simplicity sake. It's really easy to short out rectifier legs to other things you really don't want to short them to, unless they were intentionally mounted high on the PCB for airflow/clearance reasons. Even then, you'd really want a clip-type probe to grab the leg securely (In your hand is NOT secure...trust me. ).

Rule #1: Read Pinwiki. Seriously. That place is responsible for 90% of what I *do* know when it comes to troubleshooting games.

http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=General#Testing_a_Bridge_Rectifier

#16 5 years ago
Quoted from Isochronic_Frost:

Which part is bridge that I'm supposed to be measuring from?

One lug of the bridge has a single ground wire attached. Check continuity between the it and the grounding point. You can do this with power off.

#17 5 years ago
Quoted from Frax:

I suggest measuring at the connector mentioned above, for simplicity sake. It's really easy to short out rectifier legs to other things you really don't want to short them to, unless they were intentionally mounted high on the PCB for airflow/clearance reasons. Even then, you'd really want a clip-type probe to grab the leg securely (In your hand is NOT secure...trust me. ).
Rule #1: Read Pinwiki. Seriously. That place is responsible for 90% of what I *do* know when it comes to troubleshooting games.
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=General#Testing_a_Bridge_Rectifier

Yes. Isochronic_Frost As wayout440 suggested above ...check at the power board first to see if you have 12v supply there.

#18 5 years ago
Quoted from Ive:

Yes. isochronic_frost As wayout440 suggested above ...check at the power board first to see if you have 12v supply there.

Sorry I should have mentioned that on my tests the 12 volts and -12v both tested perfectly accurate. I only mentioned 5v as that's the one that was reading funky. A contact of mine suggested I replace the large capacitor at the bottom of the cab. It was replaced once before since the original came with it laying in the coin tray.

#19 5 years ago
Quoted from Isochronic_Frost:

Sorry I should have mentioned that on my tests the 12 volts and -12v both tested perfectly accurate. I only mentioned 5v as that's the one that was reading funky. A contact of mine suggested I replace the large capacitor at the bottom of the cab. It was replaced once before since the original came with it laying in the coin tray.

The large cap (10,0000uf) is for the +12VDC, so if your 12 volts tested perfectly accurate, that is not your problem. You need to check these components on the 5VDC power supply.

Untitled (resized).jpgUntitled (resized).jpg

#20 5 years ago

This below taken from http://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_80#Recommended_Repairs_for_the_System_80B_Power_Supply_Board

*Note* the part about 5v readings being below 1v. It suggests grounding issues. That was the problem on mine when I had about 0.75v instead of 5v. The power board was perfectly fine.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5.5.4 Recommended Repairs for the System 80B Power Supply Board

System 80B +5 VDC Power Supply. The adjustment POT is at the top of the PCB.

Step one to improving power supply reliability is to replace the original 500 ohm 1 watt adjustment pot. This procedure can be done easily without removing the large heat sink. A replacement sealed pot is recommended, but not completely necessary.

Next, remove all the old solder from the all of the .156" header pins, and reflow new solder onto the joints. The top header pins (J2) supply +5VDC to the majority of the associated circuit boards in the back box. Provided that the power supply is delivering acceptable voltages in the +5VDC range, these two relatively simple repairs are the only things needed for this board.

However, if you've adjusted the pot as much as possible in the appropriate direction, and the power supply is still delivering voltages higher or lower than around +5VDC, it's probably time to look at replacing the LM338K voltage regulator. While not a frequent occurrence, the voltage regulator will sometimes fail.

If the voltages measured are less than 1VDC, the grounds for the power supply (located at the transformer panel) will more than likely need attention. Once the grounds at the transformer panel are better secured, recheck the voltage at the power supply.

Note: When measuring the +5VDC provided by the power supply, first disconnect J2 on the power supply. Measure power at the J2 male headers first. Once within an acceptable range, turn power off and reconnect J2. Measure power across C1, the 100uf/10V capacitor that is next to J1 (power connector) on the MPU. The MPU may drag the +5VDC supply down a bit. If you find this to be the case, adjust the trim pot on the power supply until a steady +5VDC is seen at the MPU. Poor connections between the +5VDC power supply and the MPU board may also reduce the voltage measured at the MPU.

#21 5 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

The large cap (10,0000uf) is for the +12VDC, so if your 12 volts tested perfectly accurate, that is not your problem. You need to check these components on the 5VDC power supply.
[quoted image]

I used those schematics and the hand written note and tested it as it said and that's where I got the -.3 voltage reading. I touched the black probe to one of the grounding nuts and then the red directly to that large regulator.

Quoted from Frax:

Rule #1: Read Pinwiki. Seriously. That place is responsible for 90% of what I *do* know when it comes to troubleshooting games.
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=General#Testing_a_Bridge_Rectifier

I've been referring to pinwiki and it has been helpful, but it's a little too technical to the point that I'm not sure of all the components they're referring too!

Quoted from Ive:

This below taken from http://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_80#Recommended_Repairs_for_the_System_80B_Power_Supply_Board
*Note* the part about 5v readings being below 1v. It suggests grounding issues. That was the problem on mine when I had about 0.75v instead of 5v. The power board was perfectly fine.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5.5.4 Recommended Repairs for the System 80B Power Supply Board
System 80B +5 VDC Power Supply. The adjustment POT is at the top of the PCB.
Step one to improving power supply reliability is to replace the original 500 ohm 1 watt adjustment pot. This procedure can be done easily without removing the large heat sink. A replacement sealed pot is recommended, but not completely necessary.
Next, remove all the old solder from the all of the .156" header pins, and reflow new solder onto the joints. The top header pins (J2) supply +5VDC to the majority of the associated circuit boards in the back box. Provided that the power supply is delivering acceptable voltages in the +5VDC range, these two relatively simple repairs are the only things needed for this board.
However, if you've adjusted the pot as much as possible in the appropriate direction, and the power supply is still delivering voltages higher or lower than around +5VDC, it's probably time to look at replacing the LM338K voltage regulator. While not a frequent occurrence, the voltage regulator will sometimes fail.
If the voltages measured are less than 1VDC, the grounds for the power supply (located at the transformer panel) will more than likely need attention. Once the grounds at the transformer panel are better secured, recheck the voltage at the power supply.
Note: When measuring the +5VDC provided by the power supply, first disconnect J2 on the power supply. Measure power at the J2 male headers first. Once within an acceptable range, turn power off and reconnect J2. Measure power across C1, the 100uf/10V capacitor that is next to J1 (power connector) on the MPU. The MPU may drag the +5VDC supply down a bit. If you find this to be the case, adjust the trim pot on the power supply until a steady +5VDC is seen at the MPU. Poor connections between the +5VDC power supply and the MPU board may also reduce the voltage measured at the MPU.

I completely missed this particular part! Where can I locate a replacement pot? Mine seems to do nothing when I adjust it. I see it mentions disconnecting J2, so test the J2 pins first to verify voltage and then check the voltage.

The only other confusing part is the "bridge" I wasn't sure what that is to measure grounds off of. Am I supposed to find each individual pin that is for grounding off each board and check for continuity to the transformer ground?

#22 5 years ago
Quoted from Isochronic_Frost:

I used those schematics and the hand written note and tested it as it said and that's where I got the -.3 voltage reading. I touched the black probe to one of the grounding nuts and then the red directly to that large regulator.

I've been referring to pinwiki and it has been helpful, but it's a little too technical to the point that I'm not sure of all the components they're referring too!

I completely missed this particular part! Where can I locate a replacement pot? Mine seems to do nothing when I adjust it. I see it mentions disconnecting J2, so test the J2 pins first to verify voltage and then check the voltage.
The only other confusing part is the "bridge" I wasn't sure what that is to measure grounds off of. Am I supposed to find each individual pin that is for grounding off each board and check for continuity to the transformer ground?

So you *definitely* have 12v going onto the power board ? - you measured this at connector J1 as described a few posts above ?

With J2 disconnected - what reading do you get at the J2 pins ? If you adjust the pot does the reading change at all ?

#23 5 years ago
Quoted from Ive:

So you *definitely* have 12v going onto the power board ? - you measured this at connector J1 as described a few posts above ?
With J2 disconnected - what reading do you get at the J2 pins ? If you adjust the pot does the reading change at all ?

I didn't measure it off of J2 I was reading off of A6P2 which goes to that soundboard where I was reading my 12v. I was mistakenly thinking that was J2. I'll check the connection to the power board tonight

#24 5 years ago

Well I typed out a long response and my crappy phone decided to shutdown completely. Had a picture too and it deleted it. Pretty annoyed.

Anyway, I was wrong and turns out at A2P2 I’m getting nothing. No voltage at all. Measuring with power on and connector unplugged. Measuring the connector as it’s plugged in, I’m getting minimal voltage

#25 5 years ago
Quoted from Luckydogg420:

Wow. Sorry to hear. Is it something simple like a fuse?

This will be the end of me.
I’m quitting pinball.

It was, in fact, a fuse. This whole time. I took them out and check them, they all looked good. No burns or broken ones.

Sure enough.

Quoted from wayout440:

You can use the 3-digit wire color codes to find where they go... This will verify you are getting power to the fuse, the return side is there and the fuse is good.

I shoulda listened in the first place. I traced out the wires from the power supply that wasn’t getting any voltage, followed them all the way around till I found their various ends. One of the Black and Red wires ended at a fuse. Checked it with the meter to be sure and dang ol’ thing was open.
I’m so annoyed I didn’t check them with the meter to start.
The fuse looks perfect but nevertheless it’s bad, probably under the metal caps. The F2 6a fuse blew. Very sad. Also adjusted my 5v back to perfect 5v and the game turned right on!

Thank you everyone for your help and sorry I wasted your time!
The pin gods have shown me the error of my ways... it’s always the simplest thing you don’t check.

#26 5 years ago

We've all done it. Glad its sorted.

A good reminder though that you can't check a fuse just by looking at it

#27 5 years ago

I’m glad you got it working without to much hassle

#28 5 years ago

Congrats. At least it was only the fuse. You might feel silly, but you learned, and it wasn't something massive.

#29 5 years ago

Just checked back on this and had to LOL... any day you find out "it's just a fuse" is a GREAT DAY, because the stupid thing did EXACTLY WHAT IT WAS SUPPOSED TO!

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