NIB problems: JJP vs. Stern

(Topic ID: 229153)

NIB problems: JJP vs. Stern


By TRAMD

4 months ago



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  • 66 posts
  • 33 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 months ago by PtownPin
  • Topic is favorited by 6 Pinsiders

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    #1 4 months ago

    I am a big fan of both Jersey Jack and Stern and honestly prefer JJP games overall to Stern. I think JJP is making the best games of all time. My top 6 is WOZ, JJPOTC, TZ, MM, LOTR, BM66 in that order (clearly I like widebodies with a ton of crap). But I have an issue. I started collecting a little over 2 years ago and have purchased 9 new games (WOZ RR, DI LE, TH Smaug, JJPOTC LE, BM66 Prem, SW Prem, GOTG Pro, GB Pro and MMr). Here is the number of issues that I had to fix with each out of the box. Some of these were simple adjustments but some were get replacement parts, search for hours and/or solder something.
    JJPOTC LE: 5
    TH Smaug: 4
    WOZ RR: 2
    DI LE: 2
    MMr: 1
    BM66 Prem: 0
    SW Prem: 0
    GB Pro: 0
    GOTG Pro: 0
    So averages by manufacturer: JJP = 3.25, CGC = 1, Stern = 0.
    Don't get me wrong; the support from JJP is SUPERB. I have had quick and helpful responses and gotten things figured out every time. But in some cases, it took up hours of my time for one game and/or I had to wait a couple weeks before I had a working game. I have no idea how good Stern support is because I haven't needed to contact them. Am I alone in this? Has anyone else had a similar experience or am I an outlier? I want to keep buying these awesome Jersey Jack games but I am questioning their quality control. Is this a young company problem? Were there similar Stern problems 20 years ago? Is it because of the innovative features that JJP offers on its games?

    #2 4 months ago

    Shipping a pinball machine causes the most problems in my experience. Worked when they packed it, didn't work after unpacking... loose connectors, vibration induced broken wires. Things coming unscrewed, things bent by drop shock. Stern has more experience handling machines and shipping them, but I don’t know if that makes any difference. They are all being packed and shipped about the same.

    #3 4 months ago

    Mo stuff, Mo problems! It’d the price of innovation. I hear a lot about what killed pinball and I think it has a lot to do with the fact they kept trying to one up the last machine and became overly complex and complicated.
    What makes Sterns reliable is why most people complain about them! Simplicity in components ( Better themes and challenging rules also)
    I manage a fleet of machines and whenever we see something new like the tailgate on the new GMCs that folds down in several stages my mechanics always so that going to be expensive to fix!

    #4 4 months ago

    Had so many issues on my DILE (trapdoor, phone, drone, are parts replaced and so many adjustments too) that I think JJP has a work axis to do: engineering mechs. When you see what they cut off on POTC, they need to improve their engineering department.

    #5 4 months ago

    My recent stern purchases have needed very little adjustment out of the box, boom button on dp needed adjusting, Maiden needed nothing, acdc nothing, sw nothing.

    My AFMr needed the interlock switch adjusted.

    DI needed the most, but all minor. Lockdown bar, pf hangers, backbox lock. I had no mechanical issues. Had to bend down trap door flap. Had to buy cliffy set for chipping on SIM card hole.

    My hobbit needed nothing out of the box, but over time I did need to replace the ramp flaps as they were curling (free) and a drop target board failed a month out of warranty (charged $50).

    Jjp gams are much more complex and Pfs have more on them so expect more adjustments to be needed. I like tinkering so none of the issues I’ve had bothered me, except the di backbox lock, which was very common and should never have been an issue.

    All of the initial issues I’ve had for all games should have been caught at the factory.

    #6 4 months ago

    I found that buying a NIB pinball machine is a lot like buying a Brand New House. You have to work out the bugs and work through some manufacturing issues. I think that it is worth the extra fees to buy through a dealer and have them deliver set the game up. It is a great service that folks don't appreciate and take advantage of. (including myself til recently)

    #7 4 months ago

    I really am not concerned what company has more issues. What I am concerned about is how they handle those issues, and how much of a pain in the ass it is to fix such problems. My only complaint is the timeliness to take care of some of the issues, I have always been taken care of but not without weeks or months waiting. How quickly vendor responded, how the vendor found a solution, and how quickly the vendor fixed it are all of my concerns.

    I think all vendors need to up their game in the qc department. Hire more beta testers and more qc agents-please!

    #8 4 months ago
    Quoted from TheGunnett:

    Mo stuff, Mo problems! It’d the price of innovation. I hear a lot about what killed pinball and I think it has a lot to do with the fact they kept trying to one up the last machine and became overly complex and complicated.
    What makes Sterns reliable is why most people complain about them! Simplicity in components ( Better themes and challenging rules also)
    I manage a fleet of machines and whenever we see something new like the tailgate on the new GMCs that folds down in several stages my mechanics always so that going to be expensive to fix!

    Innovation? Most of the mechs used have been around for decades. LCD's are fairly new to pinball, and they rarely have problems.

    Sterns reliable? The new Spike-based machines are less reliable...cheap boards and power supplies.

    The problem with NIB Stern games is they are trying to squeeze too much into a short period of time (in terms of both R&D and manufacturing). Iron Maiden is a great example. The Premium/LE has lot's of problems with the added goodies. Pro is much more solid. So, you get to spend an extra 2k and have more headaches...make sense?

    Back in 2004, the SAM-based machines were much more reliable. My LOTR is just crazy reliable and it's been in the wild briefly (shows, arcades). Back in those days, the Stern designers weren't forced to build 2 games (Pro, Premium/LE). Added models/features and shorten the time-to-market and the result is bugs.

    I'm pretty shocked the op claims 0 problems with his Stern games. Impressive. It's a crap shoot, that's for sure.

    snaroff

    #9 4 months ago
    Quoted from snaroff:

    Innovation? Most of the mechs used have been around for decades. LCD's are fairly new to pinball, and they rarely have problems.
    Sterns reliable? The new Spike-based machines are less reliable...cheap boards and power supplies.
    The problem with NIB Stern games is they are trying to squeeze too much into a short period of time (in terms of both R&D and manufacturing). Iron Maiden is a great example. The Premium/LE has lot's of problems with the added goodies. Pro is much more solid. So, you get to spend an extra 2k and have more headaches...make sense?
    Back in 2004, the SAM-based machines were much more reliable. My LOTR is just crazy reliable and it's been in the wild briefly (shows, arcades). Back in those days, the Stern designers weren't forced to build 2 games (Pro, Premium/LE). Added models/features and shorten the time-to-market and the result is bugs.
    I'm pretty shocked the op claims 0 problems with his Stern games. Impressive. It's a crap shoot, that's for sure.
    snaroff

    The OP may have zero issue w/ HIS Sterns, but that's a diff case from the ones i have owned..

    #10 4 months ago

    Sterns should have less problems overall versus JJP games as there's less on them but that isn't always the case.

    Any new early production pinball machine from Stern and JJP is at risk of having more issues compared to later production games. There's almost always small hardware fixes and tweaks that owners of early production games will have to go through. For less issues overall I would recommend waiting at least 6 months after initial production before ordering any new pin. By the time I did get a new Dialed In LE it had all of the hardware fixes and tweaks from earlier production games made at the factory.

    #11 4 months ago
    Quoted from PanzerFreak:

    Sterns should have less problems overall versus JJP games as there's less on them but that isn't always the case.
    Any new early production pinball machine from Stern and JJP is at risk of having more issues compared to later production games. There's almost always small hardware fixes and tweaks that owners of early production games will have to go through. For less issues overall I would recommend waiting at least 6 months after initial production before ordering any new pin. By the time I did get a new Dialed In LE it had all of the hardware fixes and tweaks from earlier production games made at the factory.

    Sound advice on waiting. But stern shouldn't have less issues then jjp. Both should have few issues. Both are brand new games that should be properly qc tested before being shipped. Both have had plenty of blunders but all 4 jjp releases have been sort of debacles. Great games but for Fs sake learn how to build a game before you start shipping them. They should be getting better instead it's the say old story with POTC. It's going to be great, I wouldn't touch an early jjp game though.

    #12 4 months ago
    Quoted from PanzerFreak:

    Sterns should have less problems overall versus JJP games as there's less on them but that isn't always the case.
    Any new early production pinball machine from Stern and JJP is at risk of having more issues compared to later production games. There's almost always small hardware fixes and tweaks that owners of early production games will have to go through. For less issues overall I would recommend waiting at least 6 months after initial production before ordering any new pin. By the time I did get a new Dialed In LE it had all of the hardware fixes and tweaks from earlier production games made at the factory.

    Agreed...one example is hobbit has 50 freaking coils and most stern le have 20 maybe? Just so much more to jjp pins . I like many stern and jjp pins but jjp throws in everything plus the kitchen sink...... the more stuff there is the more stuff that can cause issues. Most of my jjp pins have been very good .... key is buying later in production and buying huo pins after most kinks have been worked out.

    #13 4 months ago

    So waiting 20 years for a MBrLE means there should be no bugs at all when it’s delivered, right?

    #14 4 months ago

    I love both companies and own nib from both. My jjp games had nothing wrong out of the box other than having to adjust the shooter rod on hobbit. My Stern's were great to. Had to bend bracket on sparky, and had a dmd line go bad on Metallica. Overall both great experiences. Since then, zero issues other than adjusting a couple switches.

    It seems like this post was spawned from a handful of jjp potc owners having issues. I can easily recall a lot more stern threads dealing with cabinets, ghosting inserts, node boards, etc..due to volume of games stern puts out.

    Overall, both companies are releasing quality products. Jjp problems stem from the many mechs, and need small adjustments at times. Stern's issues are usually node boards, and cabinet/play field issues. Both in which seem taken care of upfront and never to be troublesome again in most cases.

    #15 4 months ago

    Only had 1 JJP and it is DI which is pretty notorious for issues.

    Big issues with Stern was 1 node board...and the gold dust on MET.

    #16 4 months ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Only had 1 JJP and it is DI which is pretty notorious for issues.

    i think jjp will be expected to turn on their next game and restore its image. Mech issues, that had ruined my DI experience (with that stupid SIM card shot) and removing cool mechs for lack of reliability on POTC are commercially bad.
    Whatever their next game, jjp will need to get it right with respecting its trademark, innovation, creativity, quality built. Code can’t save everything. Cool and original main toy is a must in my book, it is the identity of the game.

    #17 4 months ago
    Quoted from colonel_caverne:

    i think jjp will be expected to turn on their next game and restore its image. Mech issues, that had ruined my DI experience (with that stupid SIM card shot) and removing cool mechs for lack of reliability on POTC are commercially bad.
    Whatever their next game, jjp will need to get it right with respecting its trademark, innovation, creativity, quality built. Code can’t save everything. Cool and original main toy is a must in my book, it is the identity of the game.

    Potc is still absolutely loaded. The game is stuffed with mechs and shots. Unfortunately it is being shipped without proper qc and it's like groundhogs day.

    #18 4 months ago
    Quoted from jgentry:

    Potc is still absolutely loaded. The game is stuffed with mechs and shots. Unfortunately it is being shipped without proper qc and it's like groundhogs day.

    In my opinion, there is nothing in this game that I have never seen before. Nothing is impressing me. The mini playfield works like IJ built in 1993 if I do not mistake. What else?

    #19 4 months ago
    Quoted from colonel_caverne:

    In my opinion, there is nothing in this game that I have never seen before. Nothing is impressing me. The mini playfield works like IJ built in 1993 if I do not mistake. What else?

    The mini playfield works absolutely nothing like IJ.
    They couldn't be much more different.

    #20 4 months ago
    Quoted from jgentry:

    The mini playfield works absolutely nothing like IJ.
    They couldn't be much more different.

    So how it moves?

    #21 4 months ago

    It rocks back and forth like a ship. It's not a player controlled rock like IJ poa which is nothing but a player controlled back and forth to hit switches or a hole. Potc rocks, has 2 flippers, targets, 2 spinners, a cannon feed shot, etc.

    #22 4 months ago
    Quoted from jgentry:

    It rocks back and forth like a ship. It's not a player controlled rock like IJ poa which is nothing but a player controlled back and forth to hit switches or a hole. Potc rocks, has 2 flippers, targets, 2 spinners, a cannon feed shot, etc.

    Does it also move from side to side?
    The way how the mini playfield is loaded is just an implementation. The main idea here is that the mini playfield is moving.

    Édit: you said it moves back and forth like a ship. Does it give sea sick?

    #23 4 months ago

    The amazing thing with the ship is that it doesn’t just rock back and forth but it also varies in intensity and range of motion depending on what is going on and how well your playing. Pretty darn slick.

    #24 4 months ago
    Quoted from colonel_caverne:

    Does it also move from side to side?
    The way how the mini playfield is loaded is just an implementation. The main idea here is that the mini playfield is moving.
    Édit: you said it moves back and forth like a ship. Does it give sea sick?

    It's not player controlled. It's also a real playfield with flippers and shots. IJ poa is sort of fun but it doesn't usually work right and it's just a gimmick. I'm not seeing how you are comparing the two. I can only assume you have not played potc as it nothing like IJ.

    #25 4 months ago
    Quoted from colonel_caverne:

    Had so many issues on my DILE (trapdoor, phone, drone, are parts replaced and so many adjustments too) that I think JJP has a work axis to do: engineering mechs. When you see what they cut off on POTC, they need to improve their engineering department.

    Take out the trapdoor, phone, and drones and you basically have the equivalent of a Stern Premium/LE.... maybe not even then.

    The more mechs and toys you put into a game, the more issues and adjustments you're going to have.

    #26 4 months ago
    Quoted from Allibaster:

    Take out the trapdoor, phone, and drones and you basically have the equivalent of a Stern Premium/LE.... maybe not even then.
    The more mechs and toys you put into a game, the more issues and adjustments you're going to have.

    Jjp is not Stern and has no interest to become as Stern.

    #27 4 months ago

    Only fair to point out. JJP games have more in them. Weigh more. And this all makes what can happen in shipping more vulnerable to bouncing around in the back of a semi trailer.

    No matter how hard they try. Crap can happen.

    LTG : )

    #28 4 months ago
    Quoted from jgentry:

    It's not player controlled. It's also a real playfield with flippers and shots. IJ poa is sort of fun but it doesn't usually work right and it's just a gimmick. I'm not seeing how you are comparing the two. I can only assume you have not played potc as it nothing like IJ.

    Sure. I would not ask you how it moves if I have ever played it.
    For me, The original idea is a mini playfield that moves, whatever you can controlled it or not, you implement it or not.
    I understand they use this idea, it fits the theme

    #29 4 months ago
    Quoted from colonel_caverne:

    In my opinion, there is nothing in this game that I have never seen before. Nothing is impressing me. The mini playfield works like IJ built in 1993 if I do not mistake. What else?

    Wasn't (isn't) IJ POA design very buggy, having an undersized motor?

    #30 4 months ago

    I don't plan to stop buying JJP games (unless they are crap themes like Toy Story and The Muppets) but seriously wondered if I was just an odd case of having so many JJP problems and no Stern problems. Thanks for all of the responses. I will continue to support these two awesome companies. Once I get the JJP games dialed in, they are superb.

    #31 4 months ago

    Three JJP pins here. Hope I don’t have issues.

    #32 4 months ago

    I've gotten Avatar NIB.

    Had to fix half a dozen real deficiencies after the first few games.

    Including the removal of a screwdriver at the bottom of the body

    Well, I said to myself: Pinball is not robot work, it's (art) handicraft, made by human hands.

    Thus be tolerant.

    #33 4 months ago
    Quoted from TRAMD:

    Once I get the JJP games dialed in, they are superb.

    I see what you did there

    #34 4 months ago

    ALL companies have NIB issues.... ALL i said!!!

    #35 4 months ago

    I just had one NIB yet. And that was enough for me. It was a Ghostbuster Pro. I had 2 major issues. Right out of the box the power supply blew up. It was set to 115Volt instead of 230Volt. Its funny because there was even a big sticker wich said 230Volt on it. However the little switch on the side was set to 115Volt. After finally getting the game delivered wich has been delayed twice i was unable to play it for one week... Waiting for the new power supply...

    Second issue occurred shortly after i got the new power supply. Thank god the game finally worked after i got the replacement power supply... First signs of ghosting started to appear just one day after the "first" game. Only Storage Facility and Super Jackpot were ghosting. But the following day those and even more inserts were starting to ghost. Even the Shoot Again insert was affected in the end. Stern confirmed a replacement playfield. Wich i have been waiting 15 weeks for...

    Since then i had no more issues with this game. It has been around a year since the playfield swap and around 2000 games. Hopefully it will never break again. I like Ghostbuster btw...

    #36 4 months ago

    Uff yeah around GB release time had to have been the worst. My onky node board issue was GB also...rough times.

    #37 4 months ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Uff yeah around GB release time had to have been the worst. My onky node board issue was GB also...rough times.

    The funny thing is my GB is a late May 2017 build. I was waiting until it got quite around ghosting issues, before placing my order. But still got crap...

    #38 4 months ago

    Never buying NIB again. Stern Iron Maiden was my first and last.

    Was pretty worried about getting a shit playfield going in due to all of the problems with Stern playfields, and sure enough, immediately after unboxing I noticed that my playfield was ribbed to all hell. It's laughably bad. Had to turn down the brightness on the backbox light just to try and hide it from my eyes while playing. Ugh.

    Never again.

    #39 4 months ago

    I have bought several NIBs, Sterns, MMR and one JJP NIB, DI. I have never experienced issues with a new pin as I have with DI (including damaged decals, trap door, split cab, failed power supply, messed up harness which took close to a month to trouble shoot with JJP amongst other minor issues). Has everything been perfect with the Sterns, by no means, but nothing to the scale of DI.

    Having said this, I tip my hat to Frank at JJP who has been great in helping me with any issues I came across. Needless to say, very frustrating when after exchange, taxes etc my DILE cost me close to 13K Canadian and then having to deal with issues which in my opinion were not acceptable. Then the nail in the coffin was having to pay out of my pocket to ship back a crapped out power supply for a pin that was approximately 8 months old.

    As much as I'd like a POTC, I vowed never to buy JJP NIB again and won't. Eventually they'll show up on the used marked.

    #40 4 months ago
    Quoted from Bigbossfan:

    Then the nail in the coffin was having to pay out of my pocket to ship back a crapped out power supply for a pin that wasn't approximately 8 months old.

    Same here but newer than 8 months.

    #41 4 months ago
    Quoted from Bigbossfan:

    I have bought several NIBs, Sterns, MMR and one JJP NIB, DI. I have never experienced issues with a new pin as I have with DI (including damaged decals, trap door, split cab, failed power supply, messed up harness which took close to a month to trouble shoot with JJP amongst other minor issues). Has everything been perfect with the Sterns, by no means, but nothing to the scale of DI.
    Having said this, I tip my hat to Frank at JJP who has been great in helping me with any issues I came across. Needless to say, very frustrating when after exchange, taxes etc my DILE cost me close to 13K Canadian and then having to deal with issues which in my opinion were not acceptable. Then the nail in the coffin was having to pay out of my pocket to ship back a crapped out power supply for a pin that was approximately 8 months old.
    As much as I'd like a POTC, I vowed never to buy JJP NIB again and won't. Eventually they'll show up on the used marked.

    I have never had an issue with my NIB dialed in but GOTG and IM, oh yes. To many to count.

    #42 4 months ago

    Buying NIB games is a crap shoot.....I've owned several Stern, all the CGC remakes, and all the JJP games. I've had way more problems with Stern games than any of the others.

    #43 4 months ago
    Quoted from Maken:

    Never buying NIB again. Stern Iron Maiden was my first and last.
    Was pretty worried about getting a shit playfield going in due to all of the problems with Stern playfields, and sure enough, immediately after unboxing I noticed that my playfield was ribbed to all hell. It's laughably bad. Had to turn down the brightness on the backbox light just to try and hide it from my eyes while playing. Ugh.
    Never again.

    Did u notify Stern? Did they do anything about it?

    #44 4 months ago
    Quoted from Maken:

    Never buying NIB again. Stern Iron Maiden was my first and last.
    Was pretty worried about getting a shit playfield going in due to all of the problems with Stern playfields, and sure enough, immediately after unboxing I noticed that my playfield was ribbed to all hell. It's laughably bad. Had to turn down the brightness on the backbox light just to try and hide it from my eyes while playing. Ugh.
    Never again.

    My PF also has hideous grain (though the clear is absolutely smooth). https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/iron-maiden-issues/page/10#post-4450797

    I recently added Pinstadium lights...for me it reduces glare significantly and the lines aren't as visible. PF looks snazzy. Since the GI is really lousy, might want to try them for yourself.

    snaroff

    #45 4 months ago
    Quoted from PtownPin:

    Buying NIB games is a crap shoot.....I've owned several Stern, all the CGC remakes, and all the JJP games. I've had way more problems with Stern games than any of the others.

    And the Premiums often have more problems than the Pro. IMDN is a perfect example...spent a couple hours today working out sarcophagus issues. Kind of a slap in the face to "pay up" for some extra features that are poorly implemented.

    snaroff

    #46 4 months ago

    I've owned both JJP & Stern pins. They have pretty much all required varying degrees of tweaks & fixes.
    I think it's par for the course to expect some adjustments on NIB pins from all of the manufacturers.
    That's not to say that defects (ie: in the pf, cabinet, etc) should be acceptable. This is when a reliable distributor should hopefully step up to the plate to help find an acceptable solution with the manufacturer.
    Regardless, I have found that Frank at JJP & Chas at Stern to be very helpful over the years.

    #47 4 months ago
    Quoted from TRAMD:

    I am a big fan of both Jersey Jack and Stern and honestly prefer JJP games overall to Stern. I think JJP is making the best games of all time. My top 6 is WOZ, JJPOTC, TZ, MM, LOTR, BM66 in that order (clearly I like widebodies with a ton of crap). But I have an issue. I started collecting a little over 2 years ago and have purchased 9 new games (WOZ RR, DI LE, TH Smaug, JJPOTC LE, BM66 Prem, SW Prem, GOTG Pro, GB Pro and MMr). Here is the number of issues that I had to fix with each out of the box. Some of these were simple adjustments but some were get replacement parts, search for hours and/or solder something.
    JJPOTC LE: 5
    TH Smaug: 4
    WOZ RR: 2
    DI LE: 2
    MMr: 1
    BM66 Prem: 0
    SW Prem: 0
    GB Pro: 0
    GOTG Pro: 0
    So averages by manufacturer: JJP = 3.25, CGC = 1, Stern = 0.
    Don't get me wrong; the support from JJP is SUPERB. I have had quick and helpful responses and gotten things figured out every time. But in some cases, it took up hours of my time for one game and/or I had to wait a couple weeks before I had a working game. I have no idea how good Stern support is because I haven't needed to contact them. Am I alone in this? Has anyone else had a similar experience or am I an outlier? I want to keep buying these awesome Jersey Jack games but I am questioning their quality control. Is this a young company problem? Were there similar Stern problems 20 years ago? Is it because of the innovative features that JJP offers on its games?

    Hmmm this supports what I've seen at shows. Seems the vendor booths with JJP games "always" have at least one machine that isn't working correctly.

    Yes I am generalizing , but that has been my observations and my first hesitation to ever buy a JJP of my own.

    #48 4 months ago
    Quoted from jasonpaulbauer:

    Hmmm this supports what I've seen at shows. Seems the vendor booths with JJP games "always" have at least one machine that isn't working correctly.
    Yes I am generalizing , but that has been my observations and my first hesitation to ever buy a JJP of my own.

    You are missing out on some great pins by not buying JJP. All companies have issues w/ NIB.. ALL!!!!!

    #49 4 months ago
    Quoted from Skyemont:

    You are missing out on some great pins by not buying JJP. All companies have issues w/ NIB.. ALL!!!!!

    Ok, so which one? I owned DILE but bailed too quickly, perhaps. WOZ? POTC?

    To stay on track here, I had plenty of problems with an early run DILE, but very few with my early run IMDN LE, and a couple with a later run BM66.

    #50 4 months ago
    Quoted from dts:

    Ok, so which one? I owned DILE but bailed too quickly, perhaps. WOZ? POTC?

    Well I think jjp early runs have been pretty poor... At least WOZ and DI. Was Hobbit OK?

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