(Topic ID: 187195)

NIB PINBALL PRiCING


By 27dnast

2 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 124 posts
  • 63 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by TVP
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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    There are 124 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 3.
    #101 2 years ago
    Quoted from 27dnast:

    If you listen to the old Topcast pods, you'll hear some of those designers talk about how much fun they had creating games at WMS. Lawlor's interview was especially telling... his story about hooking a fan up to the top of whirlwind...or the design of Rudy... it just sounded as if they were being daring. Nordman, too. He sounds pretty upbeat when discussing his WMS days... but when the discussion turns to Pirates (I believe) he sounds more discouraged.
    I have no idea what it's like in the halls of Stern (and there are lots of sterns I really love playing), but I don't always get the sense that Stern is run as a company that fosters the same inventive enthusiasm when it comes to pushing the mechanics of a game. Maybe that's just a reaction to that "Stern feel" some of their stripped down games have... but I think you're right when you say we aren't seeing many interesting mechs at the moment. There's a little bit of magic missing, that's for sure.

    They could do anything at WMS because they were selling 10,000-20,000 units per game. Stern's always been more of a penny pinching company, especially post 2000 as the arcades were dying. At the end of the day, for Stern, the license sells the game to the distributor, the license brings in the player....and the average player doesn't know if a game would be cooler with more divertors, subways, mechanical features, etc. Look at something like South Park - players go "Oh, South Park!" and "Cool I can kill Kenny" and it makes a ton on location. It's actually smart business to not waste money on crazy mechs and designs....but it leaves hardcores like us hanging.

    Quoted from 27dnast:

    JJP seemed to capture that magic in WOZ... but look at Hobbit. It's not there.

    Oh, I disagree. Hobbit is a great game. Looks are deceiving. There are a lot of divertors, magnets, upkickers, etc that aren't blatantly obvious just by looking at it....but when you play it, there's a lot of magic and diversity while you play. Not to mention the most incredible light choreography, amazing modes and beautiful music ever composed for a pinball machine. That being said - yes, it doesn't have that one big "magic" toy like a Medieval Madness castle....but when non-hobbyists come over to play it, they're blown away by how it looks and they light up when something new and interesting happens like the beasts popping up or Smaug talking to them.

    #102 2 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    They could do anything at WMS because they were selling 10,000-20,000 units per game. Stern's always been more of a penny pinching company, especially post 2000 as the arcades were dying. At the end of the day, for Stern, the license sells the game to the distributor, the license brings in the player....and the average player doesn't know if a game would be cooler with more divertors, subways, mechanical features, etc. Look at something like South Park - players go "Oh, South Park!" and "Cool I can kill Kenny" and it makes a ton on location. It's actually smart business to not waste money on crazy mechs and designs....but it leaves hardcores like us hanging.

    Oh, I disagree. Hobbit is a great game. Looks are deceiving. There are a lot of divertors, magnets, upkickers, etc that aren't blatantly obvious just by looking at it....but when you play it, there's a lot of magic and diversity while you play. Not to mention the most incredible light choreography, amazing modes and beautiful music ever composed for a pinball machine. That being said - yes, it doesn't have that one big "magic" toy like a Medieval Madness castle....but when non-hobbyists come over to play it, they're blown away by how it looks and they light up when something new and interesting happens like the beasts popping up or Smaug talking to them.

    Just goes to show... different strokes!

    I won't disagree that the Hobbit doesn't have some cool magical mechanical action... but for me, the magic is erased by the game play. But, that's just one dude's opinion. I always love hearing that someone is really digging game... that's what this hobby is all about!

    #103 2 years ago
    Quoted from 27dnast:

    Just goes to show... different strokes!
    I won't disagree that the Hobbit doesn't have some cool magical mechanical action... but for me, the magic is erased by the game play. But, that's just one dude's opinion. I always love hearing that someone is really digging game... that's what this hobby is all about!

    You know - I really didn't to expect to. I think like a lot of people who saw/played it at shows before it came out or early in its life - I was pretty "meh" about it...and had the same complaints about the "empty" playfield and whatnot...but once I jammed on it on current code long enough for the logic of everything to click - I completely turned around on it. Honestly the same thing happened to me way back in the day with TSPP - I was like "F this confusing ass F-ing game" at first...but kept at it and then once I "got" it...holy crap, it's pinball heaven. Probably a Keith/Balcer thing...the magic isn't always super obvious up front, and the rules depth can be daunting...but with a little patience and learning - it turns into a beautiful experience.

    #104 2 years ago

    Was Roger Sharpe suggesting that colleges offer degrees on fixing pinball machines and being a route operator?

    #105 2 years ago
    Quoted from MrBally:

    People sent Stern videos stating why they should be "allowed" to spend $15k+ for a Batman '66 Collector's Edition pin. Kind of similar to the Ford GT "purchase application" process.
    Too funny.
    Stern ain't lowering prices anytime soon for their Pro model pins.
    Gary Priced it; He likes it!

    The crowd will do even more when Star Wars Super Limited Edition gets released. Just imagine all the rush to order. "Hurry and take my money"

    #106 2 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    You know - I really didn't to expect to. I think like a lot of people who saw/played it at shows before it came out or early in its life - I was pretty "meh" about it...and had the same complaints about the "empty" playfield and whatnot...but once I jammed on it on current code long enough for the logic of everything to click - I completely turned around on it. Honestly the same thing happened to me way back in the day with TSPP - I was like "F this confusing ass F-ing game" at first...but kept at it and then once I "got" it...holy crap, it's pinball heaven. Probably a Keith/Balcer thing...the magic isn't always super obvious up front, and the rules depth can be daunting...but with a little patience and learning - it turns into a beautiful experience.

    I've given it a fair shake in a couple of different environments. Wish it spoke to me... especially since a lot of owners out here on the east coast are selling at discounts.

    The game certain is a looker. JJP makes a kick-____ game!

    #107 2 years ago
    Quoted from doughslingers:

    The crowd will do even more when Star Wars Super Limited Edition gets released. Just imagine all the rush to order. "Hurry and take my money"

    They can have my spot.

    #108 2 years ago
    Quoted from doughslingers:

    The crowd will do even more when Star Wars Super Limited Edition gets released. Just imagine all the rush to order. "Hurry and take my money"

    I thought it was going to be a Super-Duper Unlimited Edition?

    #109 2 years ago
    Quoted from 27dnast:

    I have no idea what it's like in the halls of Stern (and there are lots of sterns I really love playing), but I don't always get the sense that Stern is run as a company that fosters the same inventive enthusiasm when it comes to pushing the mechanics of a game

    ask any designer there, the enthusiasm is there when they are designing the premium. The difficult part is when they have to strip out a feature to get the pro down to a specific price point (but still play well and be fun). That's got to be the toughest part of the job.

    #110 2 years ago

    Supply and demand plain and simple. What makes dirt more here and less somewhere else. People stop buying games and prices go down and so do choices. Nobody works for free. Be careful of what you ask for you may one day get it.

    #111 2 years ago
    Quoted from Buzz:

    Supply and demand plain and simple. What makes dirt more here and less somewhere else. People stop buying games and prices go down and so do choices. Nobody works for free. Be careful of what you ask for you may one day get it.

    Wherever you go, there you are.

    #112 2 years ago
    Quoted from Who-Dey:

    So how much do you think a new Stern Pro should cost dnast?

    Don't know but a premium should be $5,026.82 delivered. Not MSRP but Street.

    I paid $3800 for a delivered LOTR in December of 2003. Adjusted for inflation that's $5,026.82. So should be the same profit margin for Stern today at that price. Most people would consider LOTR to be a premium class pin in relation to how they are making them today. I guess a Pro should be around $3719 delivered (street price).

    #113 2 years ago
    Quoted from Hazoff:

    Build quality right?
    Man that argument is lame, Sterns for the most part are holding up pretty well, I don't hear much from operators stating Sterns are falling apart or from home owners that their pins are collapsing, ok "JJP games have more stuff going" what all 2 of them and The Hobbit isn't a loaded game at all and they better be loaded when you get 1 game every 3 years or so, Stern still makes the best all around games, ok code could be quicker and quality could be better but its not like its shit and no one is forcing anyone to buy NIB wait a year or so then buy a Pre. Batman 66, Starwars on the horizon, TWD, Aerosmith way cooler themes than anything JJP has come up with not too mention by far the best LCD of any manufacturer, I like the 27" and all but Sterns fits the best, maintains some translite but gives you a nice display, I'm not a Stern fanboy but I can't stand the whole "build quality of JJP" or "feels like 90's B/W" crap. without Stern we would be in a sad state when it comes to pinball in 2017. Oh yeah..............

    What are you even blathering about? I never said stern was shit. I said it bugged me that for $10k pins there is QC issues and incomplete code. JJP only has two pins? No shit, it's not like the crux of my post was JJP is missing an opportunity by producing only two pins over 6 years.

    I don't think their is any disagreement that stern has had QC issues as of late, and that there has been incomplete code occasionally. Plus, i believe JJP builds a decent quality pin...hell, you have said the exact same thing.

    The reality is you seem to having a raging stiffy for slamming JJP's products. Look at your ratings, your comments, etc....it's pretty obvious. Hell, you went on a multi-month troll about how "gay" WOZ is and how you wouldn't feel comfortable with it near you because it had women's shoes on it. Simply put, it seems like you are sorely trying to overcompensate...plus, I can't take anyone serious who thinks a pins theme effects sexual orientation...

    #114 2 years ago
    Quoted from DaveH:

    Well the introduction of the LCD was BM66. I'm surprised you didn't notice the spike in prices. Since then we have had 1 game with it (with the accompanying spike in prices on all games). I'd now expect our slow steady climb to 6k for a pro beginning. Oh, it's just a couple hundred more... followed by, oh, it's just a couple hundred more.

    It's already happening elsewhere. Pro prices here in Canada just had another $400 increase last month for no apparent reason. Nobody wants to pay $8500 Cdn delivered for a pro game now. And nobody here wants to pay used prices either. To me, the Stern new and used market here is all but dead now (or on critical life support). The value just isn't there with super long delays in code releases and some games not getting updated at all. I am pretty much done after I see what Star Wars looks like. I expect another price hike/gouge for that title.

    edit: The last price hike was by the sole importer of Stern games.

    Rob

    #115 2 years ago
    Quoted from toyotaboy:

    ask any designer there, the enthusiasm is there when they are designing the premium. The difficult part is when they have to strip out a feature to get the pro down to a specific price point (but still play well and be fun). That's got to be the toughest part of the job.

    That only started when Stern realized they could charge more for the "baseline game", so they stripped it down, called it the Pro but charged "baseline pricing", and now sell the old baseline game as the new standard - the Premium.

    Face it, we got PACKED games like LOTR and TSPP for like what, $4200 - $4500 NIB or less? Can you imagine what TSPP would be like as a Pro version? Regular pop bumper caps, no drop targets, Homer as a plastic instead of a massive head, no couch to start MB in...it would be simply ridiculous.

    They figured it out, and this community bought it for all it was worth. We started paying a premium for a game that used to be the "baseline", and then they put a couple more "bells and whistles" on a game like a "numbered plaque" and a "certificate with an autograph" and charged more for it knowing some people in this hobby just have to have a special snowflake called an LE, and that was where prices really started to take off. JJP saw it and made 17 different versions of WOZ (being facetious there), and now they are both in on making 1-of-a-kind, get it now before anyone else, super-duper, fun-filled, ultra-rare versions of games.

    And we bought it.

    We are our own worst enemy...

    #116 2 years ago
    Quoted from Rob_G:

    It's already happening elsewhere. Pro prices here in Canada just had another $400 increase last month for no apparent reason. Nobody wants to pay $8500 Cdn delivered for a pro game now. And nobody here wants to pay used prices either. To me, the Stern new and used market here is all but dead now (or on critical life support). The value just isn't there with super long delays in code releases and some games not getting updated at all. I am pretty much done after I see what Star Wars looks like. I expect another price hike/gouge for that title.
    edit: The last price hike was by the sole importer of Stern games.
    Rob

    Thats bonkers. It should be $6910 Canadian by the exchange rate. Is $8500 the street price? Or MSRP?

    -2
    #117 2 years ago

    I know it's not Passover anymore, but how is this price bitching thread different than other price bitching threads?

    The gratuitous roger sharpe mentions?

    #118 2 years ago
    Quoted from toyotaboy:

    ask any designer there, the enthusiasm is there when they are designing the premium. The difficult part is when they have to strip out a feature to get the pro down to a specific price point (but still play well and be fun). That's got to be the toughest part of the job.

    Here's the thing that makes the designers intent kind of irrelevant - if the programmers don't DO much with the extra features, do they really matter? On GB, Slimer moves horizontally - but there's nothing in the code that makes this difference from the Pro interesting. The Ecto Goggles are an awesome idea - but they barely do anything. The asteroid flashers on STLE had no code - and they're just friggin flashers. Not sure if they ever got coded, but they did nothing when I had the game. I think the lower pf on ACDC is cool, but I wouldn't disagree with its detractors that it doesn't really do much.

    I used to be a "designer's intent" Prem/LE buyer - but if I were in the market for a current title I'd be fine with a TWD Pro, GB Pro or Aero Pro and not feel like I'm missing out.

    #119 2 years ago
    Quoted from Astropin:

    Don't know but a premium should be $5,026.82 delivered. Not MSRP but Street.
    I paid $3800 for a delivered LOTR in December of 2003. Adjusted for inflation that's $5,026.82. So should be the same profit margin for Stern today at that price. Most people would consider LOTR to be a premium class pin in relation to how they are making them today. I guess a Pro should be around $3719 delivered (street price).

    That doesn't even make sense. Stern is owned by investors, and no investor will allow a company to make the same profit year over year. They must increase the profit constantly. They either raise profit per machine, or they need to increase the volume...and they always prefer both. They also invested in a new building recently. They have to pay for that with increased profits.

    I work for an investor owned company. We just had the best year in the company's history, but it was a bad year since we didn't meet the growth that the owners wanted. That is the reality of most business these days.

    #120 2 years ago
    Quoted from Nexyss:

    That doesn't even make sense. Stern is owned by investors, and no investor will allow a company to make the same profit year over year. They must increase the profit constantly. They either raise profit per machine, or they need to increase the volume...and they always prefer both. They also invested in a new building recently. They have to pay for that with increased profits.
    I work for an investor owned company. We just had the best year in the company's history, but it was a bad year since we didn't meet the growth that the owners wanted. That is the reality of most business these days.

    I don't believe Stern is investor owned.

    #121 2 years ago
    Quoted from DaveH:

    Thats bonkers. It should be $6910 Canadian by the exchange rate. Is $8500 the street price? Or MSRP?

    They were $6900 prior to Jan 1. Then $7100 and a few months ago now $7500 - $7600. Add taxes and shipping and it's going to be $8000 - $8500. It is what it is...

    Rob

    #122 2 years ago
    Quoted from Astropin:

    I don't believe Stern is investor owned.

    Yes they are.

    #123 2 years ago
    Quoted from Rob_G:

    They were $6900 prior to Jan 1. Then $7100 and a few months ago now $7500 - $7600. Add taxes and shipping and it's going to be $8000 - $8500. It is what it is...
    Rob

    That's absolutely ridiculous. Those are Stern Pro prices???

    #124 2 years ago

    The cost for stern to manufacture a pinball machine is cheaper today than it ever has been in history.

    The price collectors pay stern for a new pinball machine is higher than it has even been in history.

    Sterns profit on a new pinball machine is greater today than ever in history.

    50 people on this site not buying NIB based on principle is not going to change sterns pricing objectives.

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