(Topic ID: 187195)

NIB PINBALL PRiCING


By 27dnast

2 years ago



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  • 124 posts
  • 63 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by TVP
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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    There are 124 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 3.
    #51 2 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    They've been doing that ever since the LE was invented - but the LE upcharge used to be $800, and that was a decent enough value to different art, mirrored backglass, powdercoat, maybe a shaker - and the novelty of rarity, which could turn into a financial reward. That was worth $800 to me on Met LE. Fast forward to today - I think GBLE was $1500 more than the Prem, and then of course look at B66 LE and SLE at $10k & $15k. That's official fake collectibility and an arrogant greedy cash grab to boot.
    I think Stern's Pro/Prem/LE pricing structure around 2013 was still fair-ish. Pros were less than $5k and Prems were less than $6k. People bitched about it compared to 2006-2010 pricing (less than $4k for a full featured game)....but to me seemed to be fair on both sides. Stern runs a business and has been able to grow it and hired way more employees. Games have to sell for a certain amount to sustain that. Since the games were holding their value and even going up sometimes - that was a fair deal for both sides.
    Things have gotten a little bonkers now, and I can no longer empathize with their side, as I feel like they're just trying to take advantage of their customers. The last Stern I bought was STLE in 2013, and even then I thought the pricing was too high ...I almost didn't buy it but had a "F it, why not" moment. I sold it in less than a year due to frustration with code issues and a Stern employee gleefully gloating to me how much $ they were making, and no one cares about the things I was complaining about. Sorry, I guess I'm the crazy one for expecting the extra LE features I paid for to actually be coded.
    I almost buckled on my NIB boycott for GB, but then the QC issues came to light. Same old same old. It's all about $$$.
    They've driven me away for good. I can afford their prices. I choose not to buy on principal.

    Well said, top to bottom.

    #52 2 years ago

    Isn't it pretty clear what's happened on the LE market and pricing?

    It all started with the METLE debacle and distributor allocation and demand for that title at that price. Why? Because people could turn around and "flip" it immediately for a nice profit.

    Since then Stern has been trying to find the sweet spot that allows them to keep the "flipper profit" in their pockets without hurting demand.

    #53 2 years ago

    If you own a pinball manufacturing company, you should want to see a rise in prices. If you're a pinball collector or hobbyist, you should want to see lower prices. Since there's a handful of owners and thousands of hobbyists, it seems like most people on here would be in favor of the lowest prices possible. Strange that so many consumers would take the owners' side.

    #54 2 years ago

    Why is there such a long waiting list for a Star Wars LE? Another price increase is coming.

    People can make personal stands all they want, I thought about doing that after Star Trek and that LE release, said never again.

    Then I decided i can sit in my little corner and whine about it or i can buy what i like and enjoy playing pinball!!

    So that's why I now have an ASLE on its way next week and then we will see about Star Wars next month. Overpriced? Maybe, I don't care, I like it and the art package of the LE.

    #55 2 years ago

    It's market economics, all businesses sell their products at the market price. Pretty simple stuff really.......Supply and demand, the market sets the price of products. For a business to sell below market price would be foolish.

    #56 2 years ago
    Quoted from WackyBrakke:

    It's market economics, all businesses sell their products at the market price. Pretty simple stuff really.......Supply and demand, the market sets the price of products. For a business to sell below market price would be foolish.

    You're absolutely right. And therefore, you (or anyone else) should have no problem when people take action (like knocking games, posting pics of shoddy construction, or anything else) to do their part to try to temper the market. If that's in THEIR best interests to see prices come down, then that's all part of the "market" as well.

    11
    #57 2 years ago

    I'm going to stop buying Sterns. Right after Star Wars.

    #58 2 years ago
    Quoted from beelzeboob:

    I'm going to stop buying Sterns. Right after Star Wars.

    Me too!

    #59 2 years ago
    Quoted from usandthem:

    If you own a pinball manufacturing company, you should want to see a rise in prices. If you're a pinball collector or hobbyist, you should want to see lower prices. Since there's a handful of owners and thousands of hobbyists, it seems like most people on here would be in favor of the lowest prices possible. Strange that so many consumers would take the owners' side.

    I would want the companies making games have it be profitable so they continue to produce games. I would also hope they're paying their employees fair wages.

    Pinball is a luxury good in the home, and a business asset commercially. If I want to continue playing pinball on location, it needs to be financially viable for everyone involved.

    #60 2 years ago
    Quoted from 27dnast:

    Go listen to Roger....

    Roger Sharpe is an expert in licensing products in 2017. Let's give credit where credit is due. He is THE MAN in this field.

    Please tell me why you think be is also an expert in manufacturing in 2017.

    #61 2 years ago
    Quoted from pinballlife:

    Roger Sharpe is an expert in licensing products in 2017. Let's give credit where credit is due. He is THE MAN in this field.
    Please tell me why you think be is also an expert in manufacturing in 2017.

    Good point

    There's an assumption that he would have decent idea through industry relationships and past experience...wether you accept that assumption or not is totally up to you.

    No way you're going to have anyone intimately involved with current manufacturing in the industry speaking directly to these issues with any dose of true reality.

    #62 2 years ago
    Quoted from 27dnast:

    Well said, top to bottom.

    Agreed. Well said, Rarehero.

    -3
    #63 2 years ago
    Quoted from roffels:

    I would want the companies making games have it be profitable so they continue to produce games. I would also hope they're paying their employees fair wages.
    Pinball is a luxury good in the home, and a business asset commercially. If I want to continue playing pinball on location, it needs to be financially viable for everyone involved.

    Well sure. It's the business' desire to make profit, but OUR desire to determine how much based on how much we're willing to pay. If they want to squeeze every dime possible out of the consumer, it should be our mission to ensure that they don't. And as far as how they pay their employees, the slave wages that they pay the Mexican immigrants at their factories is well-documented.

    #64 2 years ago
    Quoted from usandthem:

    And as far as how they pay their employees, the slave wages that they pay the Mexican immigrants at their factories is well-documented.

    Wow. That wasn't necessary.

    #65 2 years ago
    Quoted from pinballlife:

    Roger Sharpe is an expert in licensing products in 2017. Let's give credit where credit is due. He is THE MAN in this field.
    Please tell me why you think be is also an expert in manufacturing in 2017.

    Amen to that. At least it gave me a chance to drop some knowledge on the old man. I rarely get that opportunity

    #66 2 years ago
    Quoted from kermit24:

    Wow. That wasn't necessary.

    Exactly...slave wages?...really?
    Try on getting married..
    Two Advil and a thank you if lucky on a good day!

    #67 2 years ago

    For one thing it's not "slave wages"

    For another, they immigrated to the US because of the opportunity, poor conditions and poverty in Mexico. That is why they don't go back. They are happy and appreciative.

    Living in San Antonio the Hispanic community is extremely hard working, family oriented and have a great culture

    #68 2 years ago

    Part of the problem is not that people don't know that prices are out of control and have disposable incomes but the pinball hobby it's like a pyramid. If youve been in this hobby for a couple of years then you do have a built up pinball income with The machines you bought years ago that have gone up in value. It's like having a Huge bank account on tap and you know you can just sell a few of your machines at a profit to get the newest machine that just came out for a ridiculous price. The newbie that just entered the hobby will gladly take on your old machines and it softens the blow and makes the pill easier to swallow.

    #69 2 years ago
    Quoted from eggbert52:

    I can personally guarantee you that both Stern and JJP are making well North of $1K per game and that's AFTER overhead.

    I hope so. That money goes into making the next game.

    LTG : )

    #70 2 years ago

    A business with a successful product that's selling well raises it's prices to make more profit, where have I heard of that before...oh that's right, it's called Capitalism. Sorry you don't like it, I've been priced out of the NIB market myself, but it's rather pointless to complain about the success of the companies or the people who have the money to buy from them.

    #71 2 years ago
    Quoted from BudManPinFan:

    A business with a successful product that's selling well raises it's prices to make more profit, where have I heard of that before...oh that's right, it's called Capitalism. Sorry you don't like it, I've been priced out of the NIB market myself, but it's rather pointless to complain about the success of the companies or the people who have the money to buy from them.

    Who is complaining?

    #72 2 years ago
    Quoted from Who-Dey:

    I would just like to know what you think Stern should charge for a pro model? I'm sure that you have some kind of an idea what you think they should cost right?

    IF Stern would deliver for what you pay, no problem with price tags today. But they don´t. That´s the unbalanced side of money and machine.

    It is not the right way to make a competition of "Who can build and sell cheaper" because it will lower the quality to a point where you cannnot get what you expect.

    But Sterns way nowadays is like this. Lowering quality again and again and again. And they want more and more and more for less.

    That is, what drive me nuts.

    Build quality and i am willing to pay....

    So let me look the next weeks (i plan to buy in June) to JJP, maybe i find there what i am looking for....

    #73 2 years ago
    Quoted from Metengo:

    IF Stern would deliver for what you pay, no problem with price tags today. But they don´t. That´s the unbalanced side of money and machine.
    It is not the right way to make a competition of "Who can build and sell cheaper" because it will lower the quality to a point where you cannnot get what you expect.
    But Sterns way nowadays is like this. Lowering quality again and again and again. And they want more and more and more for less.
    That is, what drive me nuts.
    Build quality and i am willing to pay....
    So let me look the next weeks (i plan to buy in June) to JJP, maybe i find there what i am looking for....

    It's been said a few times here, but it's not about the price for me, it's the quality of the product. A decade ago I felt the prices were in line with the quality of the machines, and had no problem buying as many games as I could fit. Nowadays, its bugs the shit out of me to order a $10k table with qc issues and lack of code. Say what you will about JJP, but I feel like with both their games so far, quality matched the price. I would even pay more since I think they build such a sturdy product. I do wonder how things will turn out if they were able to increase production and speed up release of new games, as I think they have a huge opportunity right at their fingertips.

    #74 2 years ago

    I think things will hit the roof when Star Wars comes around. They're probably going to make a killing off of those sales.

    Now, I agree with what has been said in here. Specifically, I have no problem buying a HUO Pinball. I'd love to get NIB, but when the quality of the product matches the price im paying, I'd be interested in looking at NIB again.

    However, do to quality control I will just sit and wait and move forward with HUO.

    #75 2 years ago

    Roger also said games were selling for about $4k towards the end, which converting inflation from 1999 to today's dollars that's $5900 (nearly the price of a Stern premium), so they aren't that far off. The volumes are about equal if you compare late 90's Williams to what Stern produces today, so the price breaks should be the same.

    #76 2 years ago

    Valid point... but a Stern Premium isn't $5900... it's $6800.

    And was that $4000 street? Because I'm pretty sure there are some images of old receipts floating around that tell a different story

    #77 2 years ago
    Quoted from 27dnast:

    Valid point... but a Stern Premium isn't $5900... it's $6800.

    That's what I paid for my Met LE shipped. ...that was the last phenomenal Stern game IMO. Unless they find a way to best Met...these new higher prices definitely don't make sense to me as a buyer.

    #78 2 years ago

    I think Stern Pro's are still priced alright and I'm glad we didn't see a spike in prices with the introduction of the lcd. However based on some recent complaints I also share the sentiment that qualiy could be better, but I don't think its quite as bad as the magnifying glass of internet fourm chat makes it out to be. JJP build quailty is top notch and if you can afford it totally worth it. I just wish JJP was going to be making the next Star Wars, that would be epic.

    #79 2 years ago
    Quoted from merccat:

    I think Stern Pro's are still priced alright and I'm glad we didn't see a spike in prices with the introduction of the lcd. However based on some recent complaints I also share the sentiment that qualiy could be better, but I don't think its quite as bad as the magnifying glass of internet fourm chat makes it out to be. JJP build quailty is top notch and if you can afford it totally worth it. I just wish JJP was going to be making the next Star Wars, that would be epic.

    We have seen a price increase since the LCD screens came out, it was right before that actually. Also I don't know why you don't think Sterns Star Wars won't be epic. Stern pins are way more fun that JJP's games are. Stern has been making killer games the last few years, best games pinball has ever seen IMO.

    #80 2 years ago

    I thought $4750 for a pro was a sweet spot. They raised it up to $5K, now up to $5200 with the new LCD. If they raise prices again for SW just because of the title, and the QC issues continue, the shits gonna really hit the fan.

    #81 2 years ago

    Interesting podcast and thanks for the tip. I went to the grand opening launch of Minneapolis’ newest barcade this weekend, called Tilt. The place is amazing and packed with millennials playing. It’s good to see younger players getting into the hobby, as I believe they are the ones helping to drive up the price of the used market. I had to chuckle to myself when I overheard some 20-something guy turn to his friend after playing Monster Bash and say, “Wow this game is awesome. I need to buy one on eBay!”. This place is great and all games are $.25.

    #82 2 years ago
    Quoted from Minneapolispin:

    Interesting podcast and thanks for the tip. I went to the grand opening weekend launch of Minneapolis’ newest barcade this weekend, called Tilt. The place is amazing and packed with millennials playing. It’s good to see younger players getting into the hobby, as I believe they are the ones helping to drive up the price of the used market. I had to chuckle to myself when I overheard some 20-something guy turn to his friend after playing Monster Bash and say, “Wow this game is awesome. I need to buy one on eBay!”.

    They opened up a new barcade here too. You can't get close to the place on Saturday nights. Picture about 500 twenty something's playing games. Good to see.

    Only problem is the pins are $1 a play set on 3 balls. My girl says "is that all" lets go home and play all we want.

    #83 2 years ago
    Quoted from 27dnast:

    Honestly, this has nothing to do with what I can and cannot afford...
    Listen to Roger Sharpe.
    People that rationalize these NIB prices as some kind of manufacturers necessity are tricking themselves.
    Just because someone - Anyone - has money, doesn't mean they should pay true product cost and profit +.
    Your post makes my point... we have tricked ourselves into believing that manufacturers have to charge these prices to survive...
    But you have one of the industry greats saying: NOT TRUE
    Go listen to the man.

    What in god's name are you blathering about man?

    Pinball companies are in business to make as much money as possible, just like every other other business on Earth. With the possible exception of American Pinball which is clearly a hobby for a bored rich guy. If you don't like NIB prices, don't buy NIB games.

    #84 2 years ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    Again. Where are all these people? Anyone that has taken economics 101 knows exactly what is going on. Pricing keeps increasing because the market is paying so why not keep pushing the envelope until you start to see the decline in your bottom line?

    Dude, listen to Roger Sharpe.

    LISTEN TO ROGER SHARPE!!!!!!

    This thread reminds of the Python interview where he ordered Clay to read The Fountainhead every 2 minutes.

    #85 2 years ago
    Quoted from Procrastinator:

    I think they build such a sturdy product

    Build quality right?
    Man that argument is lame, Sterns for the most part are holding up pretty well, I don't hear much from operators stating Sterns are falling apart or from home owners that their pins are collapsing, ok "JJP games have more stuff going" what all 2 of them and The Hobbit isn't a loaded game at all and they better be loaded when you get 1 game every 3 years or so, Stern still makes the best all around games, ok code could be quicker and quality could be better but its not like its shit and no one is forcing anyone to buy NIB wait a year or so then buy a Pre. Batman 66, Starwars on the horizon, TWD, Aerosmith way cooler themes than anything JJP has come up with not too mention by far the best LCD of any manufacturer, I like the 27" and all but Sterns fits the best, maintains some translite but gives you a nice display, I'm not a Stern fanboy but I can't stand the whole "build quality of JJP" or "feels like 90's B/W" crap. without Stern we would be in a sad state when it comes to pinball in 2017. Oh yeah..............

    #86 2 years ago

    Stern should go back to charging $6800 for an LE ?

    I wonder what 500-1000 Star Wars would flip for?

    That would be pretty stupid for Stern to do that right?

    That's why they have a premium and a pro?

    They keep making great pins and selling the crap out of them for now

    #87 2 years ago
    Quoted from iceman44:

    They keep making great pins and selling the crap out of them for now

    Even like AUDI making great cars..... couldn´t resist. Sorry

    #88 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Dude, listen to Roger Sharpe.
    LISTEN TO ROGER SHARPE!!!!!!
    This thread reminds of the Python interview where he ordered Clay to read The Fountainhead every 2 minutes.

    "I eat Popadiuk's for breakfast"

    #89 2 years ago
    Quoted from Hazoff:

    Build quality right?
    Man that argument is lame, Sterns for the most part are holding up pretty well, I don't hear much from operators stating Sterns are falling apart or from home owners that their pins are collapsing, ok "JJP games have more stuff going" what all 2 of them and The Hobbit isn't a loaded game at all and they better be loaded when you get 1 game every 3 years or so, Stern still makes the best all around games, ok code could be quicker and quality could be better but its not like its shit and no one is forcing anyone to buy NIB wait a year or so then buy a Pre. Batman 66, Starwars on the horizon, TWD, Aerosmith way cooler themes than anything JJP has come up with not too mention by far the best LCD of any manufacturer, I like the 27" and all but Sterns fits the best, maintains some translite but gives you a nice display, I'm not a Stern fanboy but I can't stand the whole "build quality of JJP" or "feels like 90's B/W" crap. without Stern we would be in a sad state when it comes to pinball in 2017. Oh yeah..............

    Hard to argue that Stern is the most prolific manufacturer... "best all around games" is subjective, but they do make quite a few super fun pins.

    But, just imagine a pinball world with an inventive Stern that's comfortable taking risks with off the wall designs. Would be nice.

    #90 2 years ago
    Quoted from 27dnast:

    But, just imagine a pinball world with an inventive Stern that's comfortable taking risks with off the wall designs. Would be nice.

    No it wouldn't. It would suck.

    Wheel of fortune and wwe are "off the wall designs" and they sold donkey dick.

    My god, I would love to see a bunch of pinsiders raise a million bucks and start a pinball company and watch the failure hurricane that followed.

    #91 2 years ago
    Quoted from sed6:Deleted post

    Why would you even comment.

    #92 2 years ago

    Stern need to keep costs down to keep operators in the game. This hobby dies without operators. Watch.

    #93 2 years ago
    Quoted from Msch:

    Stern need to keep costs down to keep operators in the game. This hobby dies without operators. Watch.

    Ok. I'm watching.

    Why complain about stern? Every single of the other 10 companies offers only a more expensive product. Seems like stern is doing a better job than anyone in keeping costs down and keeping ops in the game.

    #94 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Every single of the other 10 companies offers only a more expensive product. Seems like stern is doing a better job than anyone in keeping costs down and keeping ops in the game.

    time will tell what homepin ends up selling thunderbirds for. Not that I care about thunderbirds, but if that gets released at under $5k (with better quality control because they build everything in-house), it could give Stern some serious competition (especially in europe). I'd be curious what they intend to do for title #2 as far as layout / license.

    #95 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    No it wouldn't. It would suck.
    Wheel of fortune and wwe are "off the wall designs" and they sold donkey dick.

    This!

    Everyone screams for innovative, unique, off-the-wall designs.

    And then they scream even more loudly when they get them.

    Companies are damned if they do...and damned if they don't.

    As far as NIB prices, do I wish they were still in the $3-4k range? Sure. But I also wish I could buy a pack of baseball cards for $.25 or gas for $.99 a gallon. Crap. I'm turning into my Dad.

    #96 2 years ago
    Quoted from Who-Dey:

    Sounds pretty fair to me. Your pro price is about what we can get one for now though so that's about where they are.

    Pro prices are now? I need a new distributor. Pm me who you buy thru please.

    #97 2 years ago
    Quoted from merccat:

    I'm glad we didn't see a spike in prices with the introduction of the lcd.

    Well the introduction of the LCD was BM66. I'm surprised you didn't notice the spike in prices. Since then we have had 1 game with it (with the accompanying spike in prices on all games). I'd now expect our slow steady climb to 6k for a pro beginning. Oh, it's just a couple hundred more... followed by, oh, it's just a couple hundred more.

    #98 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    No it wouldn't. It would suck.
    Wheel of fortune and wwe are "off the wall designs" and they sold donkey dick.
    My god, I would love to see a bunch of pinsiders raise a million bucks and start a pinball company and watch the failure hurricane that followed.

    WOF is actually a really good design, hampered by a cheesey theme and incomplete code. WWE, yeah that just f'ing sucks. When people want "off the wall designs", I think they just want something a little more interesting - ramps that do interesting things with divertors to make a single shot have multiple outcomes...and of course, a really cool toy. I think B'66 was an attempt at a really cool toy, but it didn't quite work. I think people want to see the Stern equivalent of something that used to wow us back in the day...Rudy's talking head, Addam's Thing hand & book case, Dr. Who's Time Expander, Medieval's castle. We had a few Stern toys like that...POTC's ship, Family Guy's mini-pinball...but interesting and unique toy mechs are pretty rare right now. Aerosmith's ball fling & MB dump is pretty cool, although it's something we have seen on other games.

    #99 2 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    WOF is actually a really good design, hampered by a cheesey theme and incomplete code. WWE, yeah that just f'ing sucks. When people want "off the wall designs", I think they just want something a little more interesting - ramps that do interesting things with divertors to make a single shot have multiple outcomes...and of course, a really cool toy. I think B'66 was an attempt at a really cool toy, but it didn't quite work. I think people want to see the Stern equivalent of something that used to wow us back in the day...Rudy's talking head, Addam's Thing hand & book case, Dr. Who's Time Expander, Medieval's castle. We had a few Stern toys like that...POTC's ship, Family Guy's mini-pinball...but interesting and unique toy mechs are pretty rare right now. Aerosmith's ball fling & MB dump is pretty cool, although it's something we have seen on other games.

    I wish they would do another talking head game, I don't care if it's been done before.

    #100 2 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    WOF is actually a really good design, hampered by a cheesey theme and incomplete code. WWE, yeah that just f'ing sucks. When people want "off the wall designs", I think they just want something a little more interesting - ramps that do interesting things with divertors to make a single shot have multiple outcomes...and of course, a really cool toy. I think B'66 was an attempt at a really cool toy, but it didn't quite work. I think people want to see the Stern equivalent of something that used to wow us back in the day...Rudy's talking head, Addam's Thing hand & book case, Dr. Who's Time Expander, Medieval's castle. We had a few Stern toys like that...POTC's ship, Family Guy's mini-pinball...but interesting and unique toy mechs are pretty rare right now. Aerosmith's ball fling & MB dump is pretty cool, although it's something we have seen on other games.

    If you listen to the old Topcast pods, you'll hear some of those designers talk about how much fun they had creating games at WMS. Lawlor's interview was especially telling... his story about hooking a fan up to the top of whirlwind...or the design of Rudy... it just sounded as if they were being daring. Nordman, too. He sounds pretty upbeat when discussing his WMS days... but when the discussion turns to Pirates (I believe) he sounds more discouraged.

    I have no idea what it's like in the halls of Stern (and there are lots of sterns I really love playing), but I don't always get the sense that Stern is run as a company that fosters the same inventive enthusiasm when it comes to pushing the mechanics of a game. Maybe that's just a reaction to that "Stern feel" some of their stripped down games have... but I think you're right when you say we aren't seeing many interesting mechs at the moment. There's a little bit of magic missing, that's for sure.

    JJP seemed to capture that magic in WOZ... but look at Hobbit. It's not there.

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