If manufacturers can't make a profit then what's the point of doing business? Game manufacturers aren't making these games because they just love the hobby, this is their livelihood. They have overhead costs like the factory, employees, benefits packages, insurance etc. I'm priced way out of NIB because I have to run my life like a business. I'm fortunate to be able to own any at all. If you don't like the prices then vote with your wallet and don't buy. There are lots of people with disposable income that are keep the new games coming out., and prices increasing. When I first started in this hobby just about 3 to 4 years ago my goal was to end up with an Addams Family which I was absolutely in love with when it first came out. Back then they could easily be had in the 3000 to 3500 range. Each year I would buy, restore , sell hoping to one day get to that one game. Now the typical asking price is over 6K, and I just kept getting further an further away. Pinball as a hobby is not a poor man's game. Good luck in your quest to get game makers to start giving these things away.

I've only bought 2 NIBs in the past few years whereas I used to buy 2-3 NIBs a year. New pricing pretty much forces me to buy 'keeper' or 'long term' pins; where I used to feel comfortable rotating them in and out ever few months. In a way, I'm thankful - I have the discipline now to no longer be the guniea pig and test early production games. Now manufacturers have to prove themselves and make a stellar game if they want my $.

I think you have a good feel what is going on and you and other folks can take advantage of it if you wish - or not.

This is - supposed cool stuff is coming out at higher prices that folks are willing to buy. Folks are buying before the product or quality is proven. Folks are taking a slightly, but not to much more percentage wise hit out of the box and are still ok with it.

So a smart gameplan is to wait to see how new titles turn out and if you really like it buy a clean HUO at a discount. If a title is super popular and HUO are hard to find consider buying a NIB during the 2-3 year window the game is for sale. If you miss the window of NIB production and the game is super popular then either pay more for it knowing that the game is a winner or wait for a VE. Very few games go up in price out of production though. For every acdc or Tron there are 5 titles that go down.

So instead of trying to change the way the pinball world is I say adapt to it and work the situation to your advantage. Even if SW is coming out.

Listen where?

For me, and I doubt I'm alone, the hobby has turned into "whose side are you on". Jack definitely opened the door to higher prices, but he also raised the bar immensely. After opening 2 premium nib sterns (kiss & gb) I've "woken up" to the fact that Stern premiums are way overpriced. I've also spent plenty on full throttle & Amh at barcades - meh. My take going forward - I will only pay what jjp charges because I truly believe it's a superior product, and believe it's worth it - like Apple products...and I want to help jjp succeed. Hopefully their next title will include a pro price point, but either way I'm done with any other manufacturers nib games for the foreseeable future.
K-Man is the man!

Yep - check it out - imho it's the best pinball podcast by far

Considering the OP lives in Maryland, I hope he is complaining about his local government at least as much as he is about pinball manufacturers.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/price-of-nib-pins-back-in-the-day#post-1991884

Hey, as long as a few pins are available for sub-$6,000 prices, there's a shred of sanity in the NIB market.

-mof

In 2011 at TPF and MGC, Jack said he was going to build machines "for the love of pinball".

So how much do you think a new Stern Pro should cost dnast?

Ideally, just looking at historical prices over 35 years, I'd say somewhere between $4k and $6k. I'd go with $5k to give room for much more complex pins to cost $6k.

-mof

really???
we are having this discussion again??

Sorry

REALLY???
WE ARE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION AGAIN??

I would just like to know what you think Stern should charge for a pro model? I'm sure that you have some kind of an idea what you think they should cost right?

People are buying and until that slows, prices will stay on the rise. I bought NIB AS it was a high price but that game rocks! Right now buying Stern is like opening a cracker jack box and seeing what's inside.. One thing about JJP his machines are solidly built. However, you have a great point look at Houdini (HDI) in the mid 6's. They have built the game quickly and have 1 version. Not 3 and then 4 more versions later. Well, not that we are aware of. I think things will slow down over time. I mean how many of theses games can a person buy from everyone throwing them out? 12K to hang out and eat dinner after you buy your air fair? That's just laughable! For 12K you come bring a limo to my home and take me to dinner. I mean just go to a show and when they come out on the floor grab a hotdog and offer them one and eat a hotdog with them if it means that much. Cheaper than another 3K.
It will all level off. Right now its a sellers market IMO, but the table will swing one day.

People sent Stern videos stating why they should be "allowed" to spend $15k+ for a Batman '66 Collector's Edition pin. Kind of similar to the Ford GT "purchase application" process.

Too funny.

Stern ain't lowering prices anytime soon for their Pro model pins.

Gary Priced it; He likes it!

Agree, if Stern's sales are increasing there is no way they will reduce prices. Business 101.

Are we close to 'top of market' , 'bubble' etc.... ? Maybe.

I do!

Pro $4,825
Prem $5,650 (If LE's go away)
LE $6,775 (Maybe do away with this all together)

Based on 1000 units per unit made except LE's 500:
Pro: $4,825,000
Prem: $5,650,000
LE: $ 3,387,500
Total: $13,862,500
Minus $4,000,000 to build (That's pretty high markup)
Total: $9,862,500

That's a pretty good market up I mean most of your parts are being used in each machine with some simple add-ons here and there.

Sounds pretty fair to me. Your pro price is about what we can get one for now though so that's about where they are.

The resale market has been really strong and helps fuel people willing to pay higher prices.

Wait till Stern sticks an LCD in a AC/DC or Tron VE.

I think Avatar LE started the snowball in motion.

From my perspective it isn't so much the pricing but the corresponding drop off in quality and corner cutting of the end product.

Stern continues to maintain these are commercial machines built for that environment, yet recent threads have shown these products to be barely holding together and fit for purpose in a HUO environment let alone in a bar somewhere.

If the dominant player in the market opted to build a machine with quality and craftsmanship that justified the price rise the price pill would be much easier to swallow for a lot of buyers.

I never get into these discussions, but, I do believe that wdp has a pretty good idea on the cost of parts. lets round up his 9.8M to 10M and multiply by 4 ( 4 releases per year) for a Gross Margin of say 40M per year. Now what still has to get paid, Mortgage, cost of capital, Taxes, Utilities, Salaries, benefits, Insurance, Inventory, Marketing, Equipment purchase/maintenance and I am sure I am missing several things. Where is their factory ( Chicago ) how many employees (100?)? The good news for Stern is that the 40M covers all that and and leaves a profit that is enough for the owners to put their own personal capital at risk. JJP a while ago was not that fortunate. The reasons others do not deliver games is that they underestimate these costs as well.

The Market sets the price of games. If the market does not cover costs,business close. There are lots of people both rich and not, that want to buy games brand new for just the shear pleasure of it. NIB owners win financially on games like Tron LE , ACDC, and lose financially on games like Transformers, X Men and Avengers. Second / Third hand buyers win the inverse financially. So we all have a choice NIB ?Second hand? If one does not want to pay NIB, then there are many options such a waiting or buying older games.

I do not blast companies on how much they are or are not making but decide how i want to spend my own personal money on this great hobby. If correct most of the time , one can have a lot of fun and still break even.

Despite higher prices does anyone think anyone other than Stern is really making a lot of money manufacturing pinball machines? JJP is their biggest competitor and has probably sold around 6k machines over the course of 6 years. 1k games a year isn't that many games when you consider salaries and overhead and factory costs. Really the only reason Stern has any competition is because the prices of games have went up. If they were still $4-$5k other companies wouldn't be entering the market and Stern would be the only player left.

To Quote Andrea Guerra the CEO of Luxotica, the company that has a strangle hold on like 80% of the eyewear sold on the planet Earth: 'Everything is worth what people are ready to pay'.

Good points, There also has to be profit for the distributor whom has all of those expenses you listed above as well.

OP needs to go do business in Venezuela, they run an economic system there, that seems to suit his sentiment. Now down there, they let you keep 20% of your gross profits(you pay 10% official tax on the 20% that they allow you to keep), until they just decide to seize your company and all it's assets. Maryland is getting close to that type economic system anyway, so it will not be much change at all, from what OP is used too!

I can personally guarantee you that both Stern and JJP are making well North of $1K per game and that's AFTER overhead.

I personally gaurantee no one here is an expert on pinball mass manufacturing. Of couse Stern profits more than a few bucks on every pin. They only sell a few titles a year and in relative small quantities. We are all bias because we are the consumer. We want cheaper prices and don't give a flip of the investors at Stern. Prices have gone up but so have prices of just about everything. Stern charges what people will pay plain and simple. Same goes for the used market. I don't think TAF is worth $6000 but others do. At one time that was crazy but not now. Trying to argue it was once a $2000 game and should still be is stupid. Prices are and always will be what people will pay at that moment. If sales start dropping at Stern, then you will see changes. Right now, it seems they have little trouble selling pins at current pricing.

I don't think anybody needed Roger Sharpe to confirm what everybody already should know.

Stern and JJP have raised prices and they are making more money as a result of it. So what. That's the market. And Stern is making great pins that people want right now.

They will keep raising prices until people stop paying them. When the artificial "limited" mirage clears up and people start losing big chunks of $$$ on the secondary market in selling these $8k plus pins thats when then tide will start turning, and its coming.

As for JJP, I got back into pinball because of Woz and love that pin, for $6500.

Imo, there is no way JJP will survive long term when the lowest priced option they offer is $8500 delivered. Can't sell enough

Creating a perceived "limited edition" or not, 2500 "LE's" is laughable, and then there will be more versions to squeeze out additional sales.

Ruby Red and Black Arrow.

I learned this in high school, did you skip this class?

Screenshot_2017-04-23-10-24-45 (resized).png

Ferrari makes way too much money on every luxury sports car they sell. Some people should get together and force them to adjust the pricing so we can all afford to buy one each year.

I also used to think the same thing about JJP, why buy anything else? Been in since day one.

Then the Woz delays for years, fully paid on TH, then TH delays for years, lies and misrepresentations along the way. Maybe again someday?

I decided along the way that i REALLY enjoyed playing pinball, not just collecting, so i buy what i like to PLAY and JJP only has 3 options right now, 2 of which i don't like.

We are getting ready to find out where the DEMAND is or isn't when Star Wars is announced in a couple of weeks.

No difference between the vaults and Ruby Reds imho - great games justify a facelift and re-release because the market still wants them.

I'm still waiting for a Chinese company to start producing and drop machines below $4k to really shake up the market.

Are there people that seriously think that any manufacturer is charging what products cost to make? They would be out of business in no time.

I haven't seen anyone try and argue that prices of these games have anything to do with rapidly increasing BOM. It's all about charging what people are willing to pay. Stern keep upping their prices 2-300 bucks per new release and will continue to do so until there is too much supply. Then and only then will prices stabilize and possibly come down.

Stern also needs a competitor that will match their output. If that happens prices will come down too.

WOZCLE was sold as "Limited". I bought one, not because 1000 is in any way limited, but because i liked the JJP concept and the theme and they were supposedly being delivered FIRST! Whoever had a fistful of cash got to jump ahead of the line as it turned out.

RRWOZ was released to squeeze more $$$ and bastardized the idea of "JJP limited", not that it matters but JJP is failing in that department.

The Vault edition is TOTALLY different. Stern hasn't yet made say 500 GBLE's and then said we are going to do another Bill Murray edition limited to another 300 and change the colors.

That line of thinking and lack of understanding how business works blows my mind.

Again. Where are all these people? Anyone that has taken economics 101 knows exactly what is going on. Pricing keeps increasing because the market is paying so why not keep pushing the envelope until you start to see the decline in your bottom line?

They've been doing that ever since the LE was invented - but the LE upcharge used to be $800, and that was a decent enough value for different art, mirrored backglass, powdercoat, maybe a shaker - and the novelty of rarity, which could turn into a financial reward. That was worth $800 to me on Met LE. Fast forward to today - I think GBLE was $1500 more than the Prem, and then of course look at B66 LE and SLE at $10k & $15k. That's official fake collectibility and an arrogant greedy cash grab to boot.

I think Stern's Pro/Prem/LE pricing structure around 2013 was still fair-ish. Pros were less than $5k and Prems were less than $6k. People bitched about it compared to 2006-2010 pricing (less than $4k for a full featured game)....but to me seemed to be fair on both sides. Stern runs a business and has been able to grow it and hired way more employees. Games have to sell for a certain amount to sustain that. Since the games were holding their value and even going up sometimes - that was a fair deal for both sides.

Things have gotten a little bonkers now, and I can no longer empathize with their side, as I feel like they're just trying to take advantage of their customers. The last Stern I bought was STLE in 2013, and even then I thought the pricing was too high ...I almost didn't buy it but had a "F it, why not" moment. I sold it in less than a year due to frustration with code issues and a Stern employee gleefully gloating to me how much $ they were making, and no one cares about the things I was complaining about. Sorry, I guess I'm the crazy one for expecting the extra LE features I paid for to actually be coded.

I almost buckled on my NIB boycott for GB, but then the QC issues came to light. Same old same old. It's all about $$$.

They've driven me away for good. I can afford their prices. I choose not to buy on principal.

So then what were you trying to say? Sounds like you know why prices are increasing and everyone else here knows why prices are increasing. Heck I didn't even need to listen to a podcast to know that either. Just remembered what I learned in high school 15 years ago. Haha