I've been thinking about this for a few days. How much do you think it would cost to develop and market a new EM pinball machine, and do you think there would be a market for it? Could a manufacturer like Spooky put one out and have it be profitable? What would pinball enthusiasts be willing to pay for a brand new design with all the chimes and whistles?
It was already attempted with King of Diamonds, and was a total flop.
Stern tried it with Big Juicy Melons....I can't imagine it sold well.
What's the point of a "new" EM style game in 2017? You're basically saying "Hey, you know all those great features you love like ramps, mechanical features, music, voices, deep rules? Screw all that crap! Gone. It's gone. I'm giving you flat playfield with nothing on it, and a doorbell for sound. Pay me $5000 for this!"
There's no market for this. People spending NIB money on NIB games want all the features standardized from the 90's onward.
For those who want EMs, you can get EMs for low prices. They're plentiful.
And those solid state wanna be EMs are nothing like the real thing.
Believe me, it would probably have a higher BOM than most any of the recent offerings.
Quoted from eggbert52:I do think however there is a market for a good solid home pinball machine but they are going to need to get the price down. I don't know why they just can't produce one in China and see how it does.
That's what they did on King of Diamonds and it was still only a few hundred less than a NIB Stern at the time.
Just so you guys know what I'm talking about, this is what the inside of a late model EM pinball machine looks like. Take away any of it and it's not an EM (electromechanical) pinball machine.
So yes, it would cost too much to make, and no it's never going to happen. And hasn't happened since the late 70s.
Quoted from Rarehero:It was already attempted with King of Diamonds, and was a total flop.
Stern tried it with Big Juicy Melons....I can't imagine it sold well.
What's the point of a "new" EM style game in 2017? You're basically saying "Hey, you know all those great features you love like ramps, mechanical features, music, voices, deep rules? Fuck all that shit! Gone. It's gone. I'm giving you flat playfield with nothing on it, and a doorbell for sound. Pay me $5000 for this!"
There's no market for this. People spending NIB money on NIB games want all the features standardized from the 90's onward.
For those who want EMs, you can get EMs for low prices. They're plentiful.
Why not some ramps on an EM?
Quoted from Dooskie:Why not some ramps on an EM?
Already been done back in the 50s. Harry Williams used to like to toy around with such novelties.
And r-hero should stick to topics he knows about like no longer buying any NIB machines.
Quoted from Rarehero:If you want to make a game with ramps, you're not making an EM style game anymore.
I give up.
Quoted from o-din:I give up.
What game is that?
Quoted from LTG:Gottlieb Roller Coaster.
LTG : )
Thank you sir!
Quoted from practicalsteve:What game is that?
Williams Skyway from 1954.
And it's not the first Williams to use ramps, but I always thought it was one of the coolest.
Quoted from Dooskie:I have a feeling this is a loaded question...
Loaded with Ted Zale Bally games from the 60s and 70s. And a couple others.
I think it'd be a cool proof of concept, if nothing else.
Who says an EM game needs to be a flat playfield with few features? And who says a multilayered game with lots of ramps needs to have complex rules?
Make a cool game with ramps or multiple levels that has a rule set that fits within the confines of what can be done electromechanically.
It'd be expensive as hell, since you'd be farming for parts out of older games.
From what I understand copper isn't cheap these days. You can tell by how much they are removing in the latest machines.
I think it'd be really tough to price out something like that. What was the BOM (adjusted for inflation) for a bally bingo back in the day? I imagine that the amount of electromechanical hardware would be the same between a "modern" EM game loaded with features and a Bingo.
I think, honestly, farming for parts would be rather inexpensive, since you'd just grab relays and steppers out from games in terrible shape (or incomplete, or whatever), but instead the high costs would be for designing the playfield, it's ramps, and it's toys--assuming the playfield is being meant to look like a modern game.
Quoted from Dooskie:Let's say o-din designs it, and is going to get paid on the back end, so no up front design costs. How much for the rest of it?
No guarantees, but I should be able to get it done by the end of the century.
SEND MONEY NOW!!!!
I have thought about it and although it would be complicated it would be doable. I'd have to use existing parts that aren't made anymore but it would have many of our favorite EM features.
I think it should have four two inch flippers, two on the upper playfield. There would be two metal ramps ala Black Knight to reach the upper play field and once there, there would be a swinging target with a drop target on either side. Also a kicker that would send the ball to a habitrail that would drop it in front of the right lower flipper.
Of course there would be an orbit under the upper play field with two ripping spinners, one on either side. And pop bumpers in no particular location. Maybe one between the lower flippers. And plenty of meaningful stand up targets at various locations throughout the game. And two or three kickoff holes. Maybe even a gobble hole.
Well, that's a start anyway.
Quoted from o-din:there would be a swinging target with a drop target on either side.
Cool idea, but won't you end up with two broken drop targets? (The swinging target may push the ball into the corner of the drop).
Also: for the cost, don't forget the labor cost, which is killer in an EM. More wiring needed.
I'm designing a stand-up EM arcade game currently. Will be assembling soon to test my schematic.
Quoted from bingopodcast:Cool idea, but won't you end up with two broken drop targets? (The swinging target may push the ball into the corner of the drop).
Let me specify. There would be rubbered plastic posts between the swinging target and drop targets. Just like on most existing EMS.
Quoted from o-din:There would be rubbered plastic posts between the swinging target and drop targets. Just like on most existing EMS
Most EMs don't have both side by side. 
Perhaps I am visualizing this incorrectly, and you mean the drops to flank the swinging target with quite a bit of clearance between the drops and the swinging target? Your write-up made it sound like the drops were right beside the target.
Quoted from bingopodcast:Most EMs don't have both side by side.
There will be now. I've already got many of these parts in stock. 
Gotcha. Yeah, the extra post should help a slow moving ball from getting in trouble with the target. You may wind up with a broken motor, though. Unless the target and post are mounted below and to the left/right rather than right beside.
Quoted from bingopodcast:You may wind up with a broken motor, though.
Ha! that Magic Clock motor has been taking a beating at since 1960 and is still running strong. And I am yet to hear of any of the swinging target motors that have failed.
It's all in the design.
Correct, that is my point.
I haven't seen a failed swinging target motor either. Doesn't mean it can't happen if the ball gets wedged due to proximity of posts or other playfield items.
Quoted from o-din:Just so you guys know what I'm talking about, this is what the inside of a late model EM pinball machine looks like. Take away any of it and it's not an EM (electromechanical) pinball machine.
Grand Prix? Gotta love going through 20 score reels. Yeah they'll never make them like that again....that wonderful smell when you lift the playfield can never be replicated...
Quoted from o-din:I'll see your Rapid Transit and raise you Marble Prince from 1932.
Is that an EM? 
Jesus, the cost of all the steel and copper in an EM would probably be more than the retail price of a modern Stern.
Quoted from o-din:I have thought about it and although it would be complicated it would be doable. I'd have to use existing parts that aren't made anymore but it would have many of our favorite EM features.
I think it should have four two inch flippers, two on the upper playfield. There would be two metal ramps ala Black Knight to reach the upper play field and once there, there would be a swinging target with a drop target on either side. Also a kicker that would send the ball to a habitrail that would drop it in front of the right lower flipper.
Of course there would be an orbit under the upper play field with two ripping spinners, one on either side. And pop bumpers in no particular location. Maybe one between the lower flippers. And plenty of meaningful stand up targets at various locations throughout the game. And two or three kickoff holes. Maybe even a gobble hole.
Well, that's a start anyway.
Yes please, although a nice middle pop on the upper instead of lower would be a new twist!
Quoted from Rarehero:It was already attempted with King of Diamonds, and was a total flop.
Stern tried it with Big Juicy Melons....I can't imagine it sold well.
What's the point of a "new" EM style game in 2017? You're basically saying "Hey, you know all those great features you love like ramps, mechanical features, music, voices, deep rules? Fuck all that shit! Gone. It's gone. I'm giving you flat playfield with nothing on it, and a doorbell for sound. Pay me $5000 for this!"
There's no market for this. People spending NIB money on NIB games want all the features standardized from the 90's onward.
For those who want EMs, you can get EMs for low prices. They're plentiful.
People always bring up king of diamonds but the timing was absolutely terrible - came right at the recession and well before the big new money resurgence. And it was inferior reproduction of an old game, not an original title.
Whoa Nellie was a terrible theme / also a really boring em-style layout. Almost any 60s or 70s inspired would have been better than the 50s multiplayer layout they went with.
And look at TNA. People can't wait to shut up and give their money.
Clearly there's a potential market for simpler single level games given the excitement over T & A. An actual EM game seems almost impossible to fathom at this point except for an expensive boutique project.
Quoted from Dooskie:I've been thinking about this for a few days. How much do you think it would cost to develop and market a new EM pinball machine, and do you think there would be a market for it? Could a manufacturer like Spooky put one out and have it be profitable? What would pinball enthusiasts be willing to pay for a brand new design with all the chimes and whistles?
Why pay thousands for something you can have for mere hundreds? Even if the demand for the product exists... it's simply not viable for a new manufacturer to compete with the inventory of existing games.
The reason the CGC remakes are working is because the secondary market prices of those titles was so inflated, it made sense to build new product to capitalize on that market value. The prices of EMs are in the toilet.
The "modern" argument can't overcome the 10x price difference and people know the old EM is almost "forever".
Need more proof? Just look at anyone who tries to restore EM games to collector quality... no one does because there is virtually zero market tolerance for EMs costing thousands of dollars.
Pretty much one of the most costly elements in a game are coils. So a cabinet full of relays and stepper coils is a horrible idea... and labor wise the design is the wrong direction too for things like score motors, steppers, etc. so you'd focus on modern interpretations... and we already have two commercial products that have attempted this so we have an idea of what costs would look like.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:And look at TNA. People can't wait to shut up and give their money.
TNA isn't EM style though. It's an early 80's SS style, but with modern display, music, and lighting. That light choreography, HOLY SHIT...it's like there's a live concert with overhead stagelights...absolutely amazing! That's no EM!!!!
I'm a modern toy/ramp fan, but TNA has my attention...just looks like a super fun and unique experience. Aurich's getting one - I'll play his...then maybe get in on that action. Glad they're making them to demand instead of faking rarity.
Quoted from mbaumle:I think it'd be really tough to price out something like that. What was the BOM (adjusted for inflation) for a bally bingo back in the day? I imagine that the amount of electromechanical hardware would be the same between a "modern" EM game loaded with features and a Bingo.
I think, honestly, farming for parts would be rather inexpensive, since you'd just grab relays and steppers out from games in terrible shape (or incomplete, or whatever), but instead the high costs would be for designing the playfield, it's ramps, and it's toys--assuming the playfield is being meant to look like a modern game.
Ramps and toys are expensive to design... but cheap to produce in volume (materials costs are very low). So the setup cost is amortized over the run. Parts like coils and brackets are just expensive per unit in materials cost... so they don't really scale down as you produce more... plus they are already available in volume. So that means costs are basically bottomed out already. So that $5 coil is going to remain an expensive line item... no matter how many they include/build.
This is a good history question.
People bring it up periodically, but need to look beyond the baseline, no slighting to anyone.
King of Diamonds (GTB, 1967)
If you want to know more, look up the words, Retro Pinball LLC.
You could also request to discuss with Herb Silvers directly based on his experience and craftsmanship.
Understand the story between the considerations of the original EM and what was created with the update, how it was completed, development even in original not the "remake". It was reverse engineering in purest form. Gottlieb supported him fully, once the wrinkles get ironed out, but the market went sour in 2006, and there were still technical production problems.
HINT: Another explanation of the difficulties of creating a successful pinball company, 10 years before the present potential failures of companies such as ZW, DP, and HP, and others in the future in less than the same amount of time. It happens for reasons that could be researched.
Retro Pinball LLC is another amazing story like IPB, and would make an incredible article or updated podcast.
TNA maybe "retro" in concept, but has NO direct relation to an EM, as it is relates to SS games from the mid 80s like Cybernaut, Beat the Clock, and Lady Luck. Even Breakshot has more in common with EMs in terms of design from 1996.
Look to the past for the knowledge.
Quoted from jwilson:Jesus, the cost of all the steel and copper in an EM would probably be more than the retail price of a modern Stern.
The copper, maybe. Steel is cheap.
Quoted from flynnibus:Why pay thousands for something you can have for mere hundreds?
I agree with this perspective.
Tournaments, even though I'm not usually winning much, have exposed me to the fun of EMs. There are hundred of titles out there. Rough and non working games are very cheap. For me, nice player games or
even restored games are still very reasonable compared to modern (90s DMD to 2017) games.
Remember that a nicely restored EM doesn't need powder coat, clear coat, LEDs, etc. At most, polished metal and cabinet paint can bring these games to their original glory. Sure, I'm making some generalizations here. The overall point is that there are plenty available for the hobbyist looking to buy.
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:King of Diamonds (GTB, 1967)
If you want to know more, look up the words, Retro Pinball LLC.
You could also request to discuss with Herb Silvers directly based on his experience and craftsmanship.
Understand the story between the considerations of the original EM and what was created with the update, how it was completed, development even in original not the "remake". It was reverse engineering in purest form. Gottlieb supported him fully, once the wrinkles get ironed out, but the market went sour in 2006, and there were still technical production problems.
KOD didn't fail due to the market going sour. Herb didn't understand his audience. He projected his feelings about pinball onto his potential customer base and was wrong in assuming they were all in agreement with him. Herb HATED Stern's games and probably all DMD style games with modern rules and licenses. The collectors market coveted those games. MM, AFM, MB, the B/W 90's games and some Sterns at the time like TSPP & LOTR. Herb didn't understand those games, so he assumed NO ONE did. His arrogance about his project was apparent. He was making KOD for himself. No one cared when he announced it -no one cared when it was for sale. Had he made that game from 1980-2017, the flop sales would have been the same. There's no market for an expensive new EM. EM fans already have their EMs, and anyone who wants an EM can generally get a real one cheap.
Revisiting this thread it's nice to see that r-hero is now our resident EM expert, an era of games that he has endlessly talked trash about and has mentioned several times that he refuses to play them.
Also nice to see he has also opened his mind to early solid state games as well. Pretty soon he will be an expert about everything.
Way to go man!
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