But you're basing that on what you believe to be true. Show me something that actually backs that up other than what you've invented in your head. This is one of the worst arguments I've ever heard. There have been 2 new series of star wars movies in my lifetime. There are multiple new TV shows including one the newest Stern game is based on. While us older people have nostalgia for star wars, it is literally more popular and thriving than it's ever been. If you've got someone other than "well I think..." by all means let's see it...

Pinball depression. My kid clearly hates old man pinball themes while kicking my ass. If only the internet and some DLC could save us.

F3849C95-7AB6-4C85-930B-6213DAD80512 (resized).jpeg

What's keeping pinball alive right now is nostalgia.

Score is an industry and universally accepted method of determining the winner of a game of pinball, just like any other points based game. Sorry to be the Debbie Downer on that issue, but it is patently true. Notice I said in my earlier post it will not change until you change HOW pinball is scored. But I'm done taking to the wall on this issue.

You’re rowing upstream, Greg. Things are changing, and they always will. How many pinball tournaments do you remember in the 90’s? Yeah, me neither.

Things changing (arcades going video game & then home gaming killing arcades) almost killed pinball…yet pinball came back precisely because it WAS pinball. Pin2000 didn’t “save” pinball, P3 didn’t…just regular ol’ pinball caught people’s attention again. Sure the score display & lighting were modernized, but they stayed fundamentally true to what they are - and sales went up. They don’t need goofy internet gimmicks to sell.

Under what rock have you been living?

That’s a philosophical debate and on certain level I tend to agree. The reality is there are generations of consumers that it’s an integral part of their existence. As I said already I’m not saying we take everything shitty about technology and wedge it into pinball. There are parts of it that would be very cool and fun and really help grow the industry. There is no reason to fear technology and progression.

Good times indeed.
Wasn't "cash fluid" enough to travel around state to state back then which would have been nice.
Obviously nothing compares to now, which has everything to do with home ownership & communication

20210625_215147.jpg

Put down your tablets, Moses. Let other people enjoy things.

Jesus, I love this forum but the amount of bickering makes me think everyone here is a woman

Here’s the deal, everyone here is a little correct, and as a whole it completes the real picture. Pinball is popular precisely because it’s pinball, but virtual pinball certainly kept my spirits high when I registered 6 years ago and now have a pin in house and 3 more on the way; it helped. Kids do find it fascinating, for an hour, and that’s proof it’s largely nostalgia-run. That’s fine… we’d be pissed as 80’s kids if we were forced to acknowledge over and over how cool 8-tracks were.

There’s been innovation in pinball over and over, and it’s both unnecessary and won’t stop, which is the perfect mix. I’ve played pins since youth and fell deeper in love the older I got, and today’s kids once exposed will have the same little trigger built inside of them.

This thread is great cause everyone is low-T arguing and correct all at the same time. That’s what makes forums; (dis)agreements, banter and a shared love. But I often get the sense of butt-hurt “you’re really wrong and I’m really correct” that it’s a bit eye rolling, especially for such a niche and bonding love. How about if we disagree, we actually acknowledge the other persons opinion, or part of it, as valid.

Everyone complains about IG, YT and TTc with today’s youth, and with 5 kids of my own, I get it. But they also bond, don’t bicker, and address a lot of heavy topics in an approachable manner. They can seek out like minded individuals with shared passions, the same as we do here, and while gaming and YT comments can be toxic as fuck, they largely either miss it or take it on the chin in stride.

Maybe I’m the over sensitive one here, but Pinside often reminds me of bickering nerds on Reddit, where instead of building each other up within actualization of shared dreams, we tear each other down in the minutia of opinion. It’s all subjective - chill the fuck out!

/mic drop - love you all and pinball is the greatest of greats

I wish they would! Pinball is fun AF!!!

We. Are. In. A. Pinball. Depression!
I don’t care who you are or what side you are on. I cry every dam time I look at the prices.

Did you lose that cash I just gave ya?!

The age of people who own machines is far more variant than most seem to be assuming. Pinball will be fine for at least 20 more years, maybe more. New people are coming into the hobby at a decent rate, and some of them can afford machines, while others will later in life. Prices will follow inflation and probably a slightly slower demand.

As for adding web features, it won't lure any new players and only a minority of current players would bother with it. I'd like it and would use it, but I couldn't care less if they left it out. Pinball being pinball is what makes it awesome. We already can compete over zoom if we really wanted to.

We’re in a bubble

Yes, but the average consumer who is already online isn't typically gonna go and buy a 10k pinball machine just to satisfy their social needs. Their cellphone already does that for them. Pinball has never had to rely on these consumers. It has always been operators, bar/establishment owners, and hobbyists in general that help keep it available and accessible for people to enjoy and it still continues to be that way.

It seems only in recent years that home owners have decided pinball cannot survive without appealing to the younger generation, so therefore we must change this thing that has existed for over 100 years, because as much as they claim to like it, for some reason it's still not good enough. It's not the end of the world if some kids don't give a shit about pinball, but somewhere else, someone's kid does, and it just so happens to represent a nice break away from today's online obsessed world, at least just for a moment. That should mean something.

If we are trying to reach folks who will supposedly only enjoy pinball if we modernize it to fit their technological needs by showcasing familiar elements of online content, then we are no longer promoting pinball, but rather just another online device that just so happens to include pinball parts and mechs that will eventually require maintenance that general consumers want nothing to do with. Average consumers have short attention spans, get bored of whatever the latest thing is and move on to the next. I think most consumers within the general public are satisfied enough playing on location, taking a selfie with a game and moving on. You can apply all the good things about technology you want, but the moment something goes wrong with a pinball machine and they come to the realization that you have to take care of it, spend more money on it, etc, it then becomes an inconvenience and they will eventually want nothing to do with it. If there is one thing that todays average consumer hates, it's inconvenience.

I don't fear technology, but what bothers me is the notion that because it is standard and commonplace, it should therefore be integrated among various other forms of entertainment and novelty just because people are addicted to the internet and can't get enough of being online all the time. So therefore now we have to change what pinball has always been so we can cater to a typically non-pinball society that will supposedly take it to new heights?

I was gonna sit this one out...but Jeez dude...you may want to take a seat:

etc. etc.

That’s a wall of text to miss the point. There is no reason for these extreme scenarios. The whole point of adding this type of technology is, if you don’t want to use it, don’t. It changes nothing about pinball the machine is functionally identical as it has always been. The reason so many products do it is because it’s fun, it provides added value and enjoyment. It does wonders for the longevity of a product. You guys sure get your knickers in a knot about a theoretical conversation that would have zero impact on pinball for you. You guys are just miserable Scooby Do villains, those damn kids.

Prices of pins make me depressed

people thought about that when star wars came out in 78. you never know the future relevance until....its the future. No one knows when a current song will be a classic, you just have to wait. I never thought pokemon would still be very relevant in 2021 and here we are...

Yeah, but pinball will die because no internet!

Ok.

Pinball is already fun. And i'm pretty sure the longevity is already there. But if you really need it to make pinball fun for you, alright cool. That's great.

Funny. I was born in '84, but yeah, perhaps it's time now for this miserable old millennial to get offline and play some pinball, but first I gotta get the knot out of these knickers! Sheesh!

No one is saying pinball is going to die and the internet is its only hope. Why the need for this drama. Ease up on the extremes. I think some modern tech would be fun. I thought it would be better than something drastic like a theme that targets a complete different demographic. I know this a lot of controversy to dig through.

The only drama tonight is missing the triple stack and getting this crap score on BSD!

Pinball depression IS real.
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Absolutely nobody in this thread has said that. Ya’ll need to lighten up. It’s not going to destroy pinball if someone connects a pin to a server.

Let’s get back to talking about bad theme ideas, like Thomas the Tank Engine.

Has Darscot installed a Scorebit into all his machines? It provides exactly what he’s asking for.

Walk the walk.

Point taken. But Tik Tok and Instagram have all the permanence of a Facebook post. It's culturally irrelevant and not something you could build a pinball theme around, certainly.

My boy is fanatical about pinball, to the point where he’s convinced me to set up a Pinball YouTube channel for him.

He’s only just turned 7 and while he loves his Nintendo Switch and alike, Pinball is what appeals most. I know a few other fellas who have kids that love pinball also. It’s never going to be for everyone, but I think we’re on an upward trajectory.

Let your kids take a peak at my boys channel, maybe it’ll help the cause. We’re hoping to upload weekly vids.

https://youtube.com/channel/UCX0Gf4b1fBmMbF50zLKlERA

Latest vid:

No, but initially this thread started out with the general idea that pinball will need kids to like it for it to continue on and survive whatever it is the OP was alluding to and you arrived with "there are things pinball needs to do" with the 'modernization' and 'persistant data' and everything else you think pinball is supposed to have now.

Perhaps it's hard to grasp when someone uses an obviously exaggerated statement, but it pretty much sums up where you guys took this thread.

Yeah I like my job. They gave me a release for ColorDMD but they were very clear on the limits. I don’t know anything about Scorebit but I doubt it’s something I would want to touch.

I think this loop has run its course. I’ll see all these names in a few months. Someone will say hey what would be something that could be good for pinball. I’ll say there is a lot of cool stuff they could do if they went online. They will rage and shake their first at the clouds, tell me how stupid it is and it will never work. None of them will be afraid of progress or technology but for some reason there will be talk of the death of pinball. They will tell each other it’s ok and that pinball is going to make it and it doesn’t need no damn technology. The will all become Dwight Schrute to announce that the score at a pinball tournament is the sacred covenant of pinball. They will quote me a lot but respond completely out of context with a lot of hyperbole and extremism. I’ll slide in snarky comments and reference Scooby Doo, The Office and hilarious people on TikTok that no one will ever get. They will just say that I don’t belong and maybe I don’t even like pinball. See you boys next time.

RareHero right on queue, I appreciate the effort. Sorry TheLaw you might get to be first next time.

I disagree with the OP, and I knew this thread would turn into a dumpster fire. The thread turned into a discussion about how to make pinball more engaging for a more connected world. That’s not just “kids”, I’m in my 50’s and I’m much more online than I used to be. jwilson almost gets it - Scorebit wouldn’t exist, if there wasn’t a demand for the kinds of things Darscot and I are talking about. But it shouldn’t be necessary to bolt on a huge $300 board to make this happen. Stern could add Wi-Fi to the CPU node board for less than $20, and charge $50 to enable the functionality. That’s what I’m hoping will happen, and what I’m expecting will happen. Complaining about progress like that is just a pointless waste of time.

What bothers me most about this thread is that some of you think that pinball needs you to be the “gatekeepers” of what pinball should be. I get it, I didn’t like LEDs when they first came out (too bright, and there wasn’t a way to dim them early on). I don’t like having my picture taken by a game. I’m sure if you go back far enough in my posts, you can find me bitching about change. But at least I have the self-awareness to be embarrassed about them now.

I didn't hear about tournies until 2004. Pretty sad.

here we go....

No one is saying your ideas are crazy, and no one is being a luddite.

The ideas just aren't that good and will cost manufacturers too much in dev and maintenance for what it's worth.

You just don't like that Pinsiders don't immediately flock to you oh-so wise "Insider" ideas and drag the conversation down to playground fighting.

I'm not that old. I like being connected. I am competitive. I can program. I play vids. I think adding connectivity (jjp is working on this) won't change much and will not attract many, if any, new players.

If you actually want any kind of userbase for pinball online things, the last thing you’d want is another upcharge on these already expensive games. If you sell 2000 machines, do you want everyone online or a fraction of an already small number?

It’s not for you, it’s for tournament players. Feel free to follow me to this thread if you want to keep debating it.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gary-stern-confirms-wi-fi-coming-tournament-play-through-the-cloud/page/3#post-6354051

Why would I “debate” in a tournament thread when I don’t care about tournaments? I hope you get what you want…but as for this topic, online stuff isn’t going to cause/solve “pinball depression”.

Enjoy your internets dot coms!

The difference between Stern and WIlliams is that Stern's business is pinball, and only pinball. Williams bailed when their insanely profitable gambling division was growing and pinball was shrinking. For Stern, It's either pinball or nothing, or attempting to completely retool to become a gambling or redemption game company.

It's not gonna happen. Stern survived the last 30 years because they know how to make pinball at a profit and they are happy with their business model. They'll be the last company to disappear once this imaginary market crash finally happens. Until then, this thread has to go on the scrap pile....

2000:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/high$20prices$20market$20collapse%7Csort:date/rec.games.pinball/gzU8ZAOxvUE/qII_fx4klQ0J

2001:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/pricing$20decrease%7Csort:date/rec.games.pinball/3XZf_itbXjY/QI04T4Qr9UkJ

2002:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/pinball$20price$20bubble%7Csort:date/rec.games.pinball/8CDhldb5kyw/JxQRQPIGmQwJ

2003:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/pinball$20market$20price$20fall%7Csort:date/rec.games.pinball/clAO0zIHHfQ/CbExiOZrldIJ

2004:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/pricing$20decrease%7Csort:date/rec.games.pinball/pXZDb-2V6Yk/GSPWq06-nWsJ

2005:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/pricing$20bubble%7Csort:date/rec.games.pinball/ACTs0HpQktA/x-C5LZAF180J

2006:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/pinball$20price$20bubble%7Csort:date/rec.games.pinball/dBrqPnk7mkk/nQYyh65_fewJ

2007:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/pinball$20prices$20fall%7Csort:date/rec.games.pinball/femnxuH8a1k/oeXzsItDbOQJ

2008:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/high$20prices$20market$20collapse%7Csort:date/rec.games.pinball/44iMVjwb68o/wXb8-3F9vOIJ

2009:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/pricing$20market%7Csort:date/rec.games.pinball/JsgTrS05pCc/8pB5t9oUqTAJ

2010:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/pricing$20market%7Csort:date/rec.games.pinball/hNRZGnOAZ-Y/bs8Js1M7sUAJ

2011:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/high$20prices$20market$20collapse%7Csort:date/rec.games.pinball/DlcZoruS0Bo/VO_cueyPCEQJ

2012:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pinball-price-bubble-think-it-cant-happen-think-again

2013:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pinball-price-bubble-will-pop

2014:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/this-is-not-a-rebirth-of-pinball-its-a-bubble

2015:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/we-all-want-the-ass-to-drop-out-of-pinball

2016:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/when-will-the-stern-bubble-burst

2017:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/are-we-in-a-pinball-bubble

2018:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/why-i-feel-pinball-prices-are-going-to-plummet

2019:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/will-pinball-prices-come-down-

2020:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/prices-dropping-

2021 (this year has been a fuggin BANNER YEAR for price bubble threads...maybe it's something in the vaccines):
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pinball-pricing-bubble-due-to-covid-one-nine

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/similarities-with-pinball-market-amp-the-2008-housing-crash

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/next-pinball-depression-

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/how-to-feel-about-these-exorbitant-pinball-prices/page/2#post-6254131

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pingreed-is-a-cancer-is-there-a-cure

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/prices-of-pinball-machines-today#post-6229413

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pinflation-or-inflation

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/price-gouging

Different market.

1990's were mostly location games. And price per play didn't keep up with inflation. Games weren't being maintained, weren't being replaced, income worth was dropping for operators. By 1995 pinball was on the roller coaster to hell.

Gary Stern kept pinball going in the worst decade of coin op ever.

And because of the growing interest in pinball for the home market when Williams closed. Lots of routed cheap games. The hobby grew.

Which leads us to today. Because of Gary Stern. We have a thriving pinball industry. More parts available now than ever before. And more than one manufacturer. And the shift to the home market is driving it.

When I think of the TCA ( Train Collectors Association ) whose average age is a good thirty years or more older than the current pinball market as we know it. And the money that age group is still spending. I think pinball has a good twenty plus years or more into the future of what is going on now.

Even accounting for inflation or down turn in the economy. I don't think things will be as bleak as when Williams closed for a long time.

LTG : )

OP, the whole premise of this thread is wrong. Most of us who’ve been here a while are hoping for a correction, at least for used games. The phrase “pinball depression” is ludicrous, especially right now.

We didn’t have tournaments here in GA until 2011. Guess what got me addicted to competition play?

DE911470-9AE8-4DE5-801D-70FC9C0D5304 (resized).jpeg

So you want to put all these internet connections on other people's games but not your own?

That's what Scorebit is, which as the resident preacher for The Future(TM) you'd think you'd have your finger on the pulse.

Hey look another out of context quote and response that is not at all what was said. Who could have predicted that.

I have no desire to put all these internet connections in other peoples machines. What kind of fear mongering nonsense is that. Am I some kind of gremlin sneaking into peoples games to give them a case of the internet’s. That shit is like luggage you keep it forever.

It cracks me up how far you reached to say some silly mod is the future. It is even funnier that you think I would have my finger on the pulse of technology this old. I would rather watch paint dry on my nuts and have you drop pinballs to see if it dimples.

I woke up read this post and laughed so hard it scared the dog. Thanks man what a way to start a morning. Thought it might be rough one but it’s true what they say about laughter.

Only a decade? Nubie