(Topic ID: 247792)

Next Stern title is JP2 Jurassic Park


By Whysnow

55 days ago



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#2851 46 days ago

doubt it. you could easily have every combination on separate images and just update the correct layer as the player progresses.

Quoted from TreyBo69:

Well stuff like the map screen is being rendered by the game because it has to keep show all the locations of the various players and such.

#2852 46 days ago

Exposed screw heads? I'm out.

#2853 46 days ago
Quoted from Edenecho:

Mistake? Isnt it just the traditional Trudeau gap, as seen on many of his other machines?

From what I heard the delta between a normal gap and a Trudeau gap is 1/8". This means that from the center-line, each flipper gets moved outward by 1/16". However on GB, each flipper was moved 1/8" from the center-line, meaning the gap is 1/4" wider than a normal flipper gap and 1/8" wider than a normal Trudeau gap.

When you walk up to a GB, it's apparent to the eye that the flipper gap is wider than normal, even if only 1/8" greater than what he's known for. Even more apparent if something like a Mustang is close by.

#2854 46 days ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Don't forget the fact you can fit a golf ball between the flippers, which they now admit was a mistake that they missed until it was too late. And the outlane rails that are too short. But yes, its a beautiful machine.

I agree with the middle drain - however that's fixed with the center post.

#2855 46 days ago
Quoted from PokerJake:

Agreed, no amount of code can save that layout. I've owned GB twice and once you realize there are only 3 good shots, it's tough to unsee.

You didn't realize that the first time you owned it?

#2856 46 days ago
Quoted from Edenecho:

Mistake? Isnt it just the traditional Trudeau gap, as seen on many of his other machines?

unfortunately no. someone f'ed up the schematics and the cnc programming resulting in an additional 1/8" gap between the flippers outside of trudeau's larger gap

it wasn't caught until the playfields were cut, screened and cleared

20
#2857 46 days ago

This is going to be a huge seller for Stern. This pin really seems to have everything going for it that pinheads want in a pin. Hard to believe that Keith was able to design a layout that is actually better than IMDN. And unlike IMDN, this theme appeals to (almost) everyone.

Bravo Keith

10
#2858 46 days ago

Please no GB talk, this thread is for a real pinball machine

#2859 46 days ago

Hmm. Do you have any idea what comparison video he was referring to?

Quoted from TreyBo69:

Well stuff like the map screen is being rendered by the game because it has to keep show all the locations of the various players and such.

I'd still think the text could be an overlay over a prerendered image, maybe? My work and knowledge in 3D software is non existent. I jist imagine barebones, maybe the map screen, is being rendered on the fly.

Quoted from PanzerFreak:

The firehouse may be the most basic piece / mold in GB but it is metal, contoured, and I think it has artwork printed on versus being a sticker. There's multiple other items in GB that are molded. With Wonka the gobstopper itself is a nice 3D mold (without exposed screw heads), the Wonkavision toy used a nice painted mold, and there's also the mold for the Wonka tower. The LE Wonkavator ball lock is the one item in that game I wish was molded better considering the price jump from SE to LE.

Yeah they did, seems like they went all out with that game and then someone said "let's not do that again" lol.

Even from the reveal, I didn't understand people feeling how packed this game seems to be. Plastic boxes like the tower, and raptor pen could look so much nicer if molded, and is that simply a savings of dollars per game?

I'm interested in this game due to code, playful design, and shots. Toys seem bare, art seems pretty decent, sound design seems really nice and beefy though in effects.

#2860 46 days ago
Quoted from Jason_Jehosaphat:

Opinions Sought: Raptor Pen Comparison: PRO vs Premium
To those of you who watched the Deadflip stream with care, what is your opinion on the Raptor pens between the two models? Keith described the Premium's pen as "Dirty Pool," a la AFM. I see the reference. Still, does the gate in front of the pen that retains the ball, as well as the up/down post, add up to more fun? The PRO allows the ball the trickle out the back of the pen and down the Control Room lane to the left flipper. I read the features matrix carefully and the additional up/down post in the pen, along with the gate, the responsive raptor sculpt, the animatronic T.Rex, and the kinetic helicopter blade are all that separate the two versions. There isn't any mention of a better light show on the Premium either this time. I'm fine with forgoing the T.Rex, but I do like the helicopter blade (if it has a switch and triggers a sound). I'm on the fence re: the two pen designs. The PRO's pen "flows," since the ball trickles out with every hit and becomes available for a flip almost immediately. Do you consider the chance for "dirty pool" there worthwhile? The pen mech takes up a fairly big swath of playfield. I guess I would like to have the significantly better design if there is one.

Doesn't the premium version allow a physical ball lock? I'm a sucker for those.

#2861 46 days ago
Quoted from BOBCADE:

Doesn't the premium version allow a physical ball lock? I'm a sucker for those.

Yes.

Is it just a one ball lock though? That's what I was seeing in the Premium/LE videos.

#2862 46 days ago
Quoted from BOBCADE:

Doesn't the premium version allow a physical ball lock? I'm a sucker for those.

Yes it does.. I agree, that’s why I’m leaning that way. But with the way its coded, how different is it in practicality?

#2863 46 days ago
Quoted from wesman:

Yes.
Is it just a one ball lock though? That's what I was seeing in the Premium/LE videos.

The pro is a pysical lock too, it just locks it in the control room lane instead with the post

#2864 46 days ago

Had to do some research to figure out what this random item on Nedry's desk was? I have seen the movie probably 50+ times and never noticed it before so was wondering if it was a pinball easter egg or something. Turns out that it is in the movie and is a stress relief squeeze toy that can be seen in some shots of the desk. When you squeeze it, the eyes and ears bulge out. Thought this was interesting so passing it along for your information. Do with it what you will

Desk (resized).JPGDesk 2 (resized).JPG
#2865 46 days ago
Quoted from jacksparrow0112:

Had to do some research to figure out what this random item on Nedry's desk was? I have seen the movie probably 50+ times and never noticed it before so was wondering if it was a pinball easter egg or something. Turns out that it is in the movie and is a stress relief squeeze toy that can be seen in some shots of the desk. When you squeeze it, the eyes and ears bulge out. Thought this was interesting so passing it along for your information. Do with it what you will [quoted image][quoted image]

Is appears in the movie when Nedry complains about his pay... He squeezes it in frustration.

#2866 46 days ago
Quoted from libtech:

The pro is a pysical lock too, it just locks it in the control room lane instead with the post

Yup. It just feels like that design choice neuters the reason for the pen itself, on the Pro. Cost cutting for sure, but the pen itself seems moot on the Pro. Sucks....

Has anyone seen either lock more than one ball? If it's only one ball, especially in the pen, that doesn't make sense either.

Side note. Coming out for the Switch September 20th. It's a port from 2015, but still looks solid!

18
#2867 46 days ago
Quoted from wesman:

Even from the reveal, I didn't understand people feeling how packed this game seems to be. Plastic boxes like the tower, and raptor pen could look so much nicer if molded, and is that simply a savings of dollars per game?

Injection molding isn't actually that simple. It's an amortized cost model, you pay a lot up front, it's easy for molds to cost in the tens of thousands of dollars, and then the plastic for each one is cheap. You want to pump out 100,000 widgets, it's not hard to use volume to make up your initial sunk costs.

Pinball doesn't move 100,000 units. Every time you want to add another injection molded piece to your game you need to pay those up front costs. There's a time cost too, getting the molds made, production etc, and we all know that if you want it at all cheap you're doing that in China. You can add weeks or months to your turnaround working overseas like that. If you discover something in play testing and want to change it, to prevent a ball trap say, you have to start over. New molds, new costs, more time, etc.

There's a reason Stern uses off the shelf toys so often, it avoids those costs and headaches. For things they do custom, like I would imagine the Death Star from Star Wars for instance, that's why the Pro version uses the 'exploding' model even though it doesn't open. Otherwise they'd need a new mold, and those costs. Better to glue the one that opens shut.

I'm sure the mod community will supply new 3D structures for those who care. I'm also sure they won't sell them for dollars per game. Materials like plastic might be cheap, but the economics behind getting you a finished piece often aren't.

-1
#2868 46 days ago
Quoted from pipes:

You didn't realize that the first time you owned it?

My wife wanted it back and figured it was a good way to deposit $4500 into the pinball hobby....lol, then she realized it wasn't fun also and sold it 2 weeks later.

#2869 46 days ago
Quoted from Yoko2una:

From what I heard the delta between a normal gap and a Trudeau gap is 1/8". This means that from the center-line, each flipper gets moved outward by 1/16". However on GB, each flipper was moved 1/8" from the center-line, meaning the gap is 1/4" wider than a normal flipper gap and 1/8" wider than a normal Trudeau gap.
When you walk up to a GB, it's apparent to the eye that the flipper gap is wider than normal, even if only 1/8" greater than what he's known for. Even more apparent if something like a Mustang is close by.

Wow, was that an oversight/mistake by Trudeau or Stern? Or intended?

That would be a trip if the entire geometry of the game was based on his traditional gap, but in reality the gap is twice as wide as usual.

#2870 46 days ago
Quoted from Ccondo:

I’ve been stuck trying to figure out the answer to this exact question.... Moving T Rex is cool but does it change gameplay like a Hyperloop? I could live without the T Rex I think but the fate of the raptor pen is making my Pro/Premium decision more difficult.

No apparently they added to his gap that was already there. They didn't know his gap was in the design.

Anyone know where we can find Hi Res pics of the JP playfield?

#2871 46 days ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

Wow, was that an oversight/mistake by Trudeau or Stern? Or intended?
That would be a trip if the entire geometry of the game was based on his traditional gap, but in reality the gap is twice as wide as usual.

I had to put Carrot flippers so it would be more playable

#2872 46 days ago
Quoted from j_m_:

unfortunately no. someone f'ed up the schematics and the cnc programming resulting in an additional 1/8" gap between the flippers outside of trudeau's larger gap
it wasn't caught until the playfields were cut, screened and cleared

Ok so this. Which should (negatively?) impact all the shooting angles? I actually don’t mind how it shoots. I mind how some of the ramps reject the ball or slow it down.*But wait, Stern probably orders playfield multiple times, depending on long term, demand. So do some tables have a smaller flipper gap? If not, why not?

JP’s shots seem pretty locked in, if you hit them correctly. Keith’s timing on that upper flipper after a loop return is downright jaw dropping. His reflexes are pretty amazing. And his touch, and shot making and decision making.

Dude should be a fighter pilot!

#2873 46 days ago
Quoted from 3pinballs:

I had to put Carrot flippers so it would be more playable

Carrot flippers are bigger? Didn't realize

Seems like someone could make a killing making slightly longer flippers to tighten up the gap. Not only on Ghostbusters, but many other games. Sorta like the opposite of people that put on lightning flippers to make games harder.

#2874 46 days ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Injection molding isn't actually that simple. It's an amortized cost model, you pay a lot up front, it's easy for molds to cost in the tens of thousands of dollars, and then the plastic for each one is cheap. You want to pump out 100,000 widgets, it's not hard to use volume to make up your initial sunk costs.
Pinball doesn't move 100,000 units. Every time you want to add another injection molded piece to your game you need to pay those up front costs. There's a time cost too, getting the molds made, production etc, and we all know that if you want it at all cheap you're doing that in China. You can add weeks or months to your turnaround working overseas like that. If you discover something in play testing and want to change it, to prevent a ball trap say, you have to start over. New molds, new costs, more time, etc.
There's a reason Stern uses off the shelf toys so often, it avoids those costs and headaches. For things they do custom, like I would imagine the Death Star from Star Wars for instance, that's why the Pro version uses the 'exploding' model even though it doesn't open. Otherwise they'd need a new mold, and those costs. Better to glue the one that opens shut.
I'm sure the mod community will supply new 3D structures for those who care. I'm also sure they won't sell them for dollars per game. Materials like plastic might be cheap, but the economics behind getting you a finished piece often aren't.

Valid points there.

Being cost prohibitive versus creative is always that fine balance. I wish we could see the bill of materials on these games, plus overhead and such. It makes being sympathetic a bit easier when you have an idea of how much, or how little profit is going on with these companies.

Sadly makes sense even for Happy Meal style trinkets, as those toys definitely have to be produced large scale.

I remember the Buffalo Pinball tour of JJP, and Jack talking about the millions of dollars on the shelves there, tied up in parts.

Would commercial level 3D molding be cost prohibitive too...? Or too time demanding?

#2875 46 days ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

Carrot flippers are bigger? Didn't realize
Seems like someone could make a killing making slightly longer flippers to tighten up the gap. Not only on Ghostbusters, but many other games. Sorta like the opposite of people that put on lightning flippers to make games harder.

That's exactly what carrot flippers do.

#2877 46 days ago
Quoted from Yoko2una:

That's exactly what carrot flippers do.

I have them on gb and it’s not enough. I already got yelled at for suggesting someone make a new longer set. They said it’s not going to be enough profit to make new ones.

#2878 46 days ago

In this case I will pass. I hope ppl have fun with it though. The art on the pro is......I just do not like it. Enjoy!

#2879 46 days ago
Quoted from attitude05:

In this case I will pass. I hope ppl have fun with it though. The art on the pro is......I just do not like it. Enjoy!

True, not a huge fan of the pro and le art, love the prem raptors though..

#2880 46 days ago

Nice side to side comparisons here:

https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/jurassic-park-deep-dive-in-depth-overview-of-the-machine-features-rules-and-more/

Prefer the cabinet and backglass art over the playfield but I buy more for gameplay. Still, looks good to me.

11
#2881 46 days ago

For those concerned about the "exposed nuts" and lack of 3D molded pieces everywhere...

It's a pinball machine. The job of the art package and plastics + toys is to evoke a feeling. It's not possible nor even necessary to provide extremely detailed models etc. for a game that you're going to be sending relatively heavy pinballs flying around on.

Need to see it in person of course, but I thought they did a great job on this one. Even the tower looks good to me though made of flat plastics.

This is always happens though when we are looking at static pictures on our computers in isolation of the actual physical game, we tend to focus on tiny details that just blend into the background on the real thing.

Reminds me of the IMDN thread before the games shipped with everyone so concerned about the silver screw heads on the backboard plastics, how can Stern do this! Maybe we can paint them, etc. You know how many comments there have been about those since the games started arriving?? Exactly zero. It's a none issue in the context of an awesome pinball game.

Hell, Addam's Family had so many exposed wires, switcheds, etc. it looked half done the first time I saw it. Didn't stop it from becoming the highest selling game ever. That level of perfection just isn't require or even suited to pinball IMHO. The "apparent resolution" of the entire game must align. If you have a couple of super high quality items it can look disjointed with the rest of the game. Consistency is better.

#2882 46 days ago
Quoted from jacksparrow0112:

Had to do some research to figure out what this random item on Nedry's desk was? I have seen the movie probably 50+ times and never noticed it before so was wondering if it was a pinball easter egg or something. Turns out that it is in the movie and is a stress relief squeeze toy that can be seen in some shots of the desk. When you squeeze it, the eyes and ears bulge out. Thought this was interesting so passing it along for your information. Do with it what you will [quoted image][quoted image]

It's also a reaccuring thing in s2 of Dirk Gently. I think of it every time I see this now

#2883 46 days ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Injection molding isn't actually that simple. It's an amortized cost model, you pay a lot up front, it's easy for molds to cost in the tens of thousands of dollars, and then the plastic for each one is cheap. You want to pump out 100,000 widgets, it's not hard to use volume to make up your initial sunk costs.
Pinball doesn't move 100,000 units. Every time you want to add another injection molded piece to your game you need to pay those up front costs. There's a time cost too, getting the molds made, production etc, and we all know that if you want it at all cheap you're doing that in China. You can add weeks or months to your turnaround working overseas like that. If you discover something in play testing and want to change it, to prevent a ball trap say, you have to start over. New molds, new costs, more time, etc.
There's a reason Stern uses off the shelf toys so often, it avoids those costs and headaches. For things they do custom, like I would imagine the Death Star from Star Wars for instance, that's why the Pro version uses the 'exploding' model even though it doesn't open. Otherwise they'd need a new mold, and those costs. Better to glue the one that opens shut.
I'm sure the mod community will supply new 3D structures for those who care. I'm also sure they won't sell them for dollars per game. Materials like plastic might be cheap, but the economics behind getting you a finished piece often aren't.

This is all true. Except now we have 3D printing. Stern could make a big investment in commercial grade 3D printers and crank out whatever they want.

#2884 46 days ago
Quoted from JimB:

I have them on gb and it’s not enough

well, dont forget that the ball must, soon or later, drain out

carots flippers makes GB just perfect to play

#2885 46 days ago
Quoted from RobT:

This is going to be a huge seller for Stern. This pin really seems to have everything going for it that pinheads want in a pin. Hard to believe that Keith was able to design a layout that is actually better than IMDN. And unlike IMDN, this theme appeals to (almost) everyone.
Bravo Keith

Unfortunately I'm in the (almost) category. Not a Maiden fan but I've warmed up to them. I've never been all that interested in the JP series of films and would not buy JP just due to theme--all that jungle, dinos and a fat guy causing havoc just don't call to me. Bummer for me, as JP looks like a fantastic shooter just like Maiden.

#2886 46 days ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Don't forget the fact you can fit a golf ball between the flippers, which they now admit was a mistake that they missed until it was too late. And the outlane rails that are too short. But yes, its a beautiful machine.

Where/when did stern go on record about that?

#2887 46 days ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Injection molding isn't actually that simple. It's an amortized cost model, you pay a lot up front, it's easy for molds to cost in the tens of thousands of dollars, and then the plastic for each one is cheap.

Exactly this. I work for an injection molder. It is not uncommon for some of our larger molds to be six figures.

#2888 46 days ago

watching the stream looks great. I'll likely get a premium.

My only small demerit was the chopper spinner didn't spin all that much a couple of spins (I'd prefer if it was a switch that was used to activate a drone-like motor to spin the rotor).

I think the call outs can be improved on but the game looks very fun especially since I love ramps and the side ramp is not too difficult to hit and I like the side loop as well.

I didn't watch 100 percent in detail but what is the shot on the right side of the jeep?

#2889 46 days ago

watching the stream looks great. I'll likely get a premium.

My only small demerit fro the pin was the chopper spinner didn't spin all that much a couple of spins (too bad it didn't activate a drone-like motor to spin them).

I think the call outs can be improved on but the game looks very fun especially since I love ramps and the side ramp is not too difficult to hit and I like the side loop as well.

#2890 46 days ago
Quoted from dts:

Nice side to side comparisons here:
https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/jurassic-park-deep-dive-in-depth-overview-of-the-machine-features-rules-and-more/
Prefer the cabinet and backglass art over the playfield but I buy more for gameplay. Still, looks good to me.

Gameplay looks crazy good. The only translite that I remotely enjoy is the LE. Don't really like the fan-like dino on the pro, and the big raptor on the Prem kinda bugs me. LE looks good though. I'm probably out, but if gameplay is awesome, I'll have to get a prem and swap out the trans.

#2891 46 days ago

I didn't catch how do you you track the Dinos on the map? I don't get the map (jeep direction) etc..

#2892 46 days ago
Quoted from Fytr:

This is all true. Except now we have 3D printing. Stern could make a big investment in commercial grade 3D printers and crank out whatever they want.

3D printing is amazing, it's a wonderful solution to rapid prototyping. See my example above about needing to adjust something because of a ball trap. Easy, tweak the model, print a new one, play test away.

But 3D printing is slow. FDM printers especially are too slow, and not high enough rez for final products. Not without a ton of post processing. Things like resin printers have the detail, but not the scale, and require post processing to cure and wash etc. And still slow.

Now something like SLS might be approaching more practical realms, but they're still expensive, and still require a lot of space and labor to clean, reclaim the powder etc. If I were to put bets on 3D printed parts being commercially viable for larger runs I'd put my money on SLS. But not yet.

When you need thousands of parts you're still gonna run into roadblocks with 3D printing, the volume part is always a stumbling block.

Quoted from pickleric:

Exactly this. I work for an injection molder. It is not uncommon for some of our larger molds to be six figures.

Yup, when I said tens of thousands I was being conservative, and while it's not likely a little Stern toy would hit that $100,000 range it can get wild. As with so many things, what makes sense in other commercial markets just doesn't in pinball just because of scale. Pins sell in the few thousands range, you can't leverage mass quantities to absorb those big up front costs.

I get that home collectors want 'collectible' quality on everything. Hot Toys level sculpts, and hidden screws etc. Pinball manufacturers have to make these games easy to put together, and can't have every part be a high labor, high cost, detailed piece. Not if they want to stay in business.

I enjoy the mechanical nature of the games. Seeing screws doesn't bother me.

#2893 46 days ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

Gameplay looks crazy good. The only translite that I remotely enjoy is the LE. Don't really like the fan-like dino on the pro, and the big raptor on the Prem kinda bugs me. LE looks good though. I'm probably out, but if gameplay is awesome, I'll have to get a prem and swap out the trans.

The Premium cabinet art, colors, and particularly the raptors in the kitchen scene on the left side look amazing. You may be right on the translight but they all look good to me.

#2894 46 days ago
Quoted from lapean111:

Gb is a clunkfest.

Are you sure you werent playing BM66? GB seems fine here.

#2895 46 days ago
Quoted from Squizz:

Are you sure you werent playing BM66? GB seems fine here.

Yes, very sure. Have owned GB and played tons of BM66. BM66 flows for days compared to GB. The right ramp on the premium didn't even work as designed. Needed to be lowered to get the ball to even be able to make the turn. Garbage design all around, from a designer who no one should be supporting any more.

#2896 46 days ago

Thanks for the shared link to this image gallery. Here are 5 photos I found really helpful and are playfield angles I don't think I have seen before. Taking a look from a lower perspective gives a better sense of what were will eventually be shooting at. One thing that jumped out to me from these photos is the height of the faux-jeep over the newton ball mech that spins it. These images help show how that works. I was also wondering about the raptor cage wires that cover the pen area. Originally I thought these were actual wires stretched over that area and now can better see these are decals over a clear plastic roof. Wanted to share these on here for those who are interested in different angles of the playfield. NOTE: Go to the ING link to get HD photos of these areas.
IMG_0188 (resized).PNGIMG_0189 (resized).PNGIMG_0190 (resized).PNGIMG_0191 (resized).PNGIMG_0192 (resized).PNG

#2897 46 days ago
Quoted from lapean111:

Yes, very sure. Have owned GB and played tons of BM66. BM66 flows for days compared to GB. The right ramp on the premium didn't even work as designed. Needed to be lowered to get the ball to even be able to make the turn. Garbage design all around, from a designer who no one should be supporting any more.

Tough crowd when a $2.00 spacer dooms a $7000 game's entire design. I should probably get rid of my DP now that I think about it. Talk about bullshit design, I had to adjust the angle several times to get the Katana shot consistently makeable.

As for the other statement, I supported my local distributor. I don't know who you gave your money to.

#2898 46 days ago

Not enough people are talking about how cool the reverse loop is (that's what I'm calling it)
Shooting the right orbit then holding the upper flipper up for a rebound loop (if its traveling fast enough).
That's pretty cool to me. Has something like that been done before? I cant think of any examples.
How long do you think before we get moving raptor and helicopter mods for pro models? Maybe even a side to side motion in the t-rex? (like Stay Puft mod)

#2899 46 days ago
Quoted from Edenecho:

Mistake? Isnt it just the traditional Trudeau gap, as seen on many of his other machines?

I was under this impression as well. Definitely remember Dwight saying they made the game too difficult overall and have regrets. Was unaware about the specifics though and would love to know if I can change the flippers and not feel bad about it

#2900 46 days ago

Looks like a few of no-brainer mods could be made for this game. Better looking control tower for all models. For the Pro, helicopter blades that spin with the ball hits, Raptor replacement, perhaps some kind of T-Rex mod.

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