(Topic ID: 84065)

FIXED: Tron weak flipper after q16 replacement

By kmerrell

10 years ago


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#1 10 years ago

My right flipper went out after holding it for about a minute while explaining the game rules to a friend. Following this thread (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stern-flipper-blowing-3a-slow-blo-tron), I swapped out the transistor at q16 with a NTE2987 which got the flipper working, but it super weak. So weak that the arcade kickout pushes the flipper 40% down and then it springs back launching the ball into mid field only to plummet again.

This was my first real solder job and I am not feeling confident in my work. Could a crappy solder job cause this, or would it be all or nothing? If so, should I just pull the board off and take a better look at the solder points?

I also remember seeing a thread talking about a more powerful transistor that could/should be used to replace q16, but I can't seem to find that thread again.

Complete newbie to electronics repair, so assume no knowledge or common sense on my part

Post edited by kmerrell: Fixed, so updated the title.

#2 10 years ago

Order the right transistor (someone chime in here - TIP102?) or two and take your board to Mike Chestnut, who lives 30 minutes north of Nashville. He (or his dad) will replace the transistor and you won't have that issue again. Might as well have him replace both Q15 and Q16 so you don't have that issue again.

#3 10 years ago

I don't think a transistor can do that - I wonder if the coil/diode didn't short and take out the transistor in the first place?

#4 10 years ago
Quoted from kmerrell:

This was my first real solder job and I am not feeling confident in my work. Could a crappy solder job cause this...

Yes. Pull the board and have somebody who's a little more experienced have a look at it. Could also be a bad replacement part, but more likely a poor soldering job.

Quoted from jayhawkai:

Order the right transistor (someone chime in here - TIP102?)...

The NTE2987 is an acceptable replacement. Not easy to find, but acceptable.

Quoted from ignusfast:

I wonder if the coil/diode didn't short and take out the transistor in the first place?

Holding a flipper up for a minute is getting to be the typical MO for these. Hopefully with the new board system they'll upgrade those transistors.

#5 10 years ago

Did you check the the coil plunger to make shure its not binding? Mambe you heated up that coil and melted the coil sleeve some? Also is the eos switch working properly?

#6 10 years ago

First, thanks to everyone for the help.

Quoted from jayhawkai:

Order the right transistor (someone chime in here - TIP102?) or two and take your board to Mike Chestnut, who lives 30 minutes north of Nashville. He (or his dad) will replace the transistor and you won't have that issue again. Might as well have him replace both Q15 and Q16 so you don't have that issue again.

I have a few buddies that are solid solderers, so I can lean on them.

Quoted from crlush:

Did you check the the coil plunger to make shure its not binding? Mambe you heated up that coil and melted the coil sleeve some? Also is the eos switch working properly?

Some of that is Greek to me. What/where is the coil sleave?

I get the same behavior firing the single coil test from the diagnostics menu, so I don't think it is the eos switch.

#7 10 years ago

Just ordered some IRL540Ns that I found as a recommend replacement. In the mean time, I will have someone take a look at my soldering job and see if I can determine that to be the culprit.

Until then, I unfortunately will not be able to battle Rinzler.

#8 10 years ago

Coil sleave is a plastic bushing between the coil and the plunger. The only reson I brought up the eos was to make shure it was adjusted properly because if its not then that's how you heat up your coils because they get too much power when you hold the flipper on.

#9 10 years ago

This happend to me in the past. Got it all fixed up no problem.

http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stern-mosfet-transistor-part-check

#10 10 years ago

a heated up coil may have partially shorted within, would sure make it a weaker electromagnet, and if it heated enough to warp or partially collapse the sleeve, its gonna drag to rob even more flip power. might or not be anything to do with the driver transistor, but if its physical mechanical like that ^ its putting a real strain on the new transistor.

#11 10 years ago

Update: I pulled the board off and checked the solder points. They looked fine, but I reflowed the solder anyway to make sure. Same result. After testing it more, the same fuse blew again. I am 95% confident that it isn't my solder job that is the continuing issue.

Quoted from crlush:

Coil sleave is a plastic bushing between the coil and the plunger. The only reson I brought up the eos was to make shure it was adjusted properly because if its not then that's how you heat up your coils because they get too much power when you hold the flipper on.

I cannot feel any additional drag (compare to the other 2 flipper) on the plunger and I don't see any discoloration on the paper sleeve around the coil.

The EOS switch looks as I expect it (the correct amount of travel). Is there something else I should look for or test to ensure that it is adjusted properly?

I checked the lugs on the coils of the problem and good flippers and they all seem to be fine (~4.5).

#12 10 years ago
Quoted from kmerrell:

Update: I pulled the board off and checked the solder points. They looked fine, but I reflowed the solder anyway to make sure. Same result. After testing it more, the same fuse blew again. I am 95% confident that it isn't my solder job that is the continuing issue.

If the fuse blew, but the flipper didn't stay locked in the up position first (before the fuse blew), I would look for a short somewhere in the wiring. Your first post sounded like the typical locked on transistor, but now it sounds more like a short somewhere. It could also be a problem on the driver board, but I'd check the wiring first. Follow the wires from the flipper coils all the way back to the boards looking for any problems. Could be as simple as pinched wires between the head and the lower cabinet.

#13 10 years ago

I replaced the (recently replaced) transistor with another one and I still have the weak flipper issue, but haven't blown a fuse (yet).

Quoted from phishrace:

If the fuse blew, but the flipper didn't stay locked in the up position first (before the fuse blew), I would look for a short somewhere in the wiring. Your first post sounded like the typical locked on transistor, but now it sounds more like a short somewhere. It could also be a problem on the driver board, but I'd check the wiring first. Follow the wires from the flipper coils all the way back to the boards looking for any problems. Could be as simple as pinched wires between the head and the lower cabinet.

I followed the wires the best I could and couldn't find anything that seemed suspect about the wires themselves. I also tested the continuity at the wiring harness connected to the board. All wires are safely housed in the plastic cable organizer where they go from the cabinet to the backbox.

I did notice that there was some plastic that looked like it got too hot at some point in the plug of the wiring harness where the 2 wires go in. Couldn't tell you when it got that way, but thought it could be related to a short.

melty_harness.pngmelty_harness.png

#14 10 years ago

Could you have done that with the soldering iron or was it there before? The plastic where the wires feed in look ok, so does the wires, just looks like the plastic on the board is melted, mambe you touched it by accident with the iron. Try playing a game for a while and see if the coil on your weak flipper is hotter than the one that's not weak. Mambe you could take a pic of your weak flipper assembly And post it on hear mambe someone can see something wrong.

#15 10 years ago
Quoted from crlush:

Could you have done that with the soldering iron or was it there before? The plastic where the wires feed in look ok, so does the wires, just looks like the plastic on the board is melted, mambe you touched it by accident with the iron. Try playing a game for a while and see if the coil on your weak flipper is hotter than the one that's not weak. Mambe you could take a pic of your weak flipper assembly And post it on hear mambe someone can see something wrong.

It is possible that I hit it with the iron.

I pulled the sleeve out of the coil last night and there was indeed a noticeable ridge about 25% into the sleeve, so I am thinking that is the cause of the weakness. I ordered new sleeves that will be in this week, but in the mean time, I may borrow a sleeve from the other flipper to test my theory.

Too many "wait for the part" days in this repair, but this has been a great learning experience.

#16 10 years ago

yea I have been waiting for parts since Wednesday.

#17 10 years ago

Seems like I've been waiting for parts my whole life....for one thing or another!

1 week later
#18 10 years ago

Ok, I'm all fixed now.

It was not the sleeve. What I thought might be a warped spot in the sleeve is a ridge that exists in brand new sleeves as well. Since then, I also swapped out the coil. No change.

Last night I replaced the NTE2987, that I had put in originally, with an IRL540 (recommended here: http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/tron-right-flipper-stopped-working-on-new-machine) and all is well.

I swapped out the q15 as well as a preventative measure.

Thanks everyone for all the help! Still need to get better at diagnostics, but I feel like I am getting out of my newbie stage and have a lot more confidence in doing repairs.

#19 10 years ago

Glad to here you got it! Play on kmerrell.

#20 10 years ago

As an FYI, stern has been using better transistors recently than the Irl540n. So I wouldn't be proactively swapping these. On some cases you may be downgrading.

#21 10 years ago

???
What better transistors?
I would think a 26 amp, 100V FET would be more than enough for any load they use.

#22 10 years ago

The issue isn't whether not its enough. The OP proactively replaced also working Q15. Off top of my head on part numbers , old boards used 22NE10L, also "enough". The IRL540N is an improvement to this. New boards use I believe 44NE10L, which are a bit beefier than the IRL540N. So enough or not, it's not smart to proactively replace working 44NE10L with downgraded IRL540N

#23 10 years ago

Proactively changing FET's, yeah, no need... especially going to an NTE ("well... the part we offer should be a replacement"). But not really a downgrade if going from 40NF10Ls to IRL540s.

The 40NF10L as only used in a few places. For the most part, they are still using IRL540's and equivalents. Actually the IRL540 is a closer replacement to the 40NF10L's as a replacements then as a replacement for the older 20N10L's and 22NE10L's.

Major points between the two:
Both have a VbrDSS of 100 (not to exceed voltage).
The IRL540 is rated 26 to 36 amps depending on temperature.
The 40NF10L is rated 25 to 40 amps depending on temperature.
Hopefully the installed fuse isn't this high...

The things that kill these = VbrDSS (induced by magnetic field collapse of coil - think of missing coil diode), dV/dt (resulting from insufficient gate slewing -- cap used by Stern is fine but other replacement boards out there have -none-), excessive ID (a shorted coil or diode can take out either one with a very high and very fast current spike) and ESD. There's not really enough difference between the IRL540 and 40NF10L to make one better than the other in any of these.

It isn't an issue of whether or not it's enough - it's a matter of what they got a better deal on when buying parts.

#24 10 years ago

good to know...

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