(Topic ID: 222797)

NEW! Williams System 3-7 In-Game Test ROMs

By pincoder

5 years ago


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Topic Stats

  • 336 posts
  • 48 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 79 days ago by DumbAss
  • Topic is favorited by 75 Pinsiders

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Topic poll

“Which test ROMs have been the most useful for you?”

  • 01a-leds 2 votes
    13%
  • 01b-bus 0 votes
  • 01c-transceivers 0 votes
  • 02-blanking 0 votes
  • 03-cmos-IC19 4 votes
    25%
  • 04-ram-IC13 3 votes
    19%
  • 04-ram-IC16 3 votes
    19%
  • 05-displays 2 votes
    13%
  • 06-switches 1 vote
    6%
  • 07-bounce 0 votes
  • 08-interrupts 1 vote
    6%
  • 09-lamps 0 votes
  • 10-solenoids 0 votes
  • 11-sounds 0 votes
  • 12-sounds2 0 votes
  • clear_cmos 0 votes
  • edit_cmos 0 votes
  • init_cmos 0 votes

(Multiple choice - 16 votes by 5 Pinsiders)

This poll has been closed.

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1J4.jpg
memory_protect.jpg
wms6.jpg
wms3-4.jpg
WMS-SYS6_R001B (resized).jpg
WMS-SYS6_R002B (resized).jpg
WMS-SYS6_R003B (resized).jpg
IMG_4365 (resized).jpeg
IMG_1542 (resized).JPG
IMG_1543 (resized).JPG
image (resized).jpg
LTSpice sim of BLANKING keep-alive in test ROM (resized).png
02-blanking (resized).png
0C200399-BFEC-4C5C-9381-C10E3CD5EC73 (resized).jpeg
IMG_8222 (resized).JPG
IMG_8221 (resized).JPG

There are 336 posts in this topic. You are on page 7 of 7.
#301 1 year ago

I'm not familiar with the firepower deluxe mod. Has the MPU board been modified or is it just strictly ROM changes?

Anyway, sounds like the MPU board isnt booting the adapter at all.

Is it jumpered to run as a system 6 or system 7?

If jumpered for 7 then you need to use the "sys7" pincoder ROMs
If jumpered for system 6 with 6 digit displays then you need to use the "sys346" pincoder ROMs
If jumpered for system 6 with 7 digit displays then use "sys6a"

Also, you might want to check the socket extensions. Perhaps a pin is bent..

#302 1 year ago
Quoted from pincoder:

I'm not familiar with the firepower deluxe mod.

It is kind of cool... The guy added modes to the rule sets.
The game has more objectives to do...

#303 1 year ago
Quoted from pincoder:

I'm not familiar with the firepower deluxe mod. Has the MPU board been modified or is it just strictly ROM changes?

It's strictly a rom change, requires the extra memory on a system 7 board.

#304 1 year ago

The board is setup for system 7. In fact the base board I am using came out of a Black Knight.

I will have to trace out my adapter board, and make sure the stack is working.

Another question: The directions that come with the adapter seem to indicate that you must run this program with chip 1 of the flipper roms in place. In my case this would be IC20. Is this true?

If this is ineed the case, I may need to burn a rom 1 of the blue flipper roms for system 7 to get this work. Right now I am trying to run the adapter board in IC17 with no other chips on the board.

Edit: Ok, I think I figured out the problem. When I put this System 7 board together several years ago, I did the mod on IC17 to allow for the use of 2732 chips. The pincoder adapter is setup for a 2532. So I am going to have to create an adapter to run the 2532 output to a 2732.

#305 1 year ago
Quoted from slochar:

It's strictly a rom change, requires the extra memory on a system 7 board.

If all it needs is more RAM then perhaps a mod to the existing System 6 board to add the RAM. How much more does it need?

#306 1 year ago
Quoted from Robotworkshop:

If all it needs is more RAM then perhaps a mod to the existing System 6 board to add the RAM. How much more does it need?

Dunno, I don't run that one. I'm not sure if Oliver uses the new sound board interface or not on it.

Someone probably could/should make an add on board for the system 6 that would add the extra PIA for the sound/commas. Although with Kahout boards available I'd rather go that way.

#307 1 year ago

Thanks for all the answers everyone

uncivil_engineer you are correct: In your case, you will need to make an adapter board to convert 2532 to 2732. Then use the "sys7" ROMs in the pincoder adapter.

As far as the flipper ROMs (or any other ROMs for that matter) you do not need them installed to use the pincoder software.

#308 1 year ago

New subtopic.. I could use some help. Please PM your results if you can..

I'm looking for the GAME ID and software version of all system 3,4,6, and 7 games. While this information is freely available on the internet, I do need the results from actual games. If you have one of these systems, can you please do the one of the following on as many different games as you have:

Option A
- pull the batteries and power down the game
- open the coin door, power up the game.
- Send me the numbers you see on the displays. On Gorgar Player 1 shows "1496 1"
- reinstall the batteries and change your game defaults the way you like.

Option B
- Power on the game.
- In attract mode, open the coin door and place the auto up/down switch to "up".
- Press the Advance button
- Send me the numbers you see on the displays. On Gorgar Player 1 shows "1496 1"

Please also include the name of the game you are getting this from and, optionally, the software version shown on the ROM chips themselves.

I need a good understanding of what software versions are out there for as many games as possible.

Thanks for your help!

#309 1 year ago

black knight has

2500 3
2500 4

I documented the difference somewhere (it was an esoteric bug iirc) but I've had both in my machines. Don't remember what the original chips said on them though

Are you looking for anomalies of released software that 'reports' the wrong versions? You know of course that the first digit is the 'os' - 0, 1, or 2, the 3 digit game # (500 for black knight) and then the single digit is the revision.

#310 1 year ago
Quoted from slochar:

black knight has
2500 3
2500 4
I documented the difference somewhere (it was an esoteric bug iirc) but I've had both in my machines. Don't remember what the original chips said on them though
Are you looking for anomalies of released software that 'reports' the wrong versions? You know of course that the first digit is the 'os' - 0, 1, or 2, the 3 digit game # (500 for black knight) and then the single digit is the revision.

Thanks! Yes, I am looking for the anomalies. Regardless of what Williams documentation suggests, I need to know what the Games themselves report as.

#311 1 year ago

Cosmic Gunfight (sys 7)
2502 1
The game has a Rottendog MPU board though.

Are you looking for undumped ROMs? I presume you could otherwise get the info using your favorite HEX editor and peeking at the available dumps??

#312 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

Cosmic Gunfight (sys 7)
2502 1
The game has a Rottendog MPU board though.
Are you looking for undumped ROMs? I presume you could otherwise get the info using your favorite HEX editor and peeking at the available dumps??

The rotten dog shouldn't make a difference for this, and thanks for checking it anyway. It's good to know just the same.

Hex dumps won't do any good unless you know where the flipper roms are looking for that info. Seems to be mostly consistent across system 6 (offset by one) and system 7 (,offset zero) but there are exceptions. Firepower and Hyperball come to mind. System 3 and 4 I haven't figured out yet.

#313 1 year ago
Quoted from pincoder:

Hex dumps won't do any good unless you know where the flipper roms are looking for that info. Seems to be mostly consistent across system 6 (offset by one) and system 7 (,offset zero) but there are exceptions. Firepower and Hyperball come to mind. System 3 and 4 I haven't figured out yet.

Firepower's is at the beginning of u14. That's where all system 6 would be expected to be, $6001-$6003 in the address. What firepower do you have that is different (at least of official roms....). Hyperball's (and any other system 7 that uses the 3x2532 configuration) will still look at whatever ends up being at $E001-$E003. There are a couple of system 7 roms that use a modified blue os rom, those would be the ones that might be different. Starlight comes to mind.

Quoted from pincoder:

The rotten dog shouldn't make a difference for this

It doesn't, the rottendog rom is just the regular roms concatenated together to form the combo rom. The rumor that they were modified to work on the RD board is false.

#314 1 year ago
Quoted from slochar:

Firepower's is at the beginning of u14. That's where all system 6 would be expected to be, $6001-$6003 in the address. What firepower do you have that is different (at least of official roms....). Hyperball's (and any other system 7 that uses the 3x2532 configuration) will still look at whatever ends up being at $E001-$E003. There are a couple of system 7 roms that use a modified blue os rom, those would be the ones that might be different. Starlight comes to mind.

My mistake on Firepower. I had assembled it wrong.

As for Starlight, or any other blue rom game, I don't have any. Hoping they still look at the same address for the GAMEID and VERSION info.

Quoted from slochar:

It doesn't, the rottendog rom is just the regular roms concatenated together to form the combo rom. The rumor that they were modified to work on the RD board is false.

Yes it wouldn't make sense to build a board that would have to have modified ROMs to run. That would just be so much extra work.. and leaves open the possibility that things falls short post production. Glad to have confirmation though, thank you

#315 1 year ago

My issue is, I dont see the GAMEID and Version info in any of my roms for Hot Tip, or Phoenix for that matter. Trying to write a test ROM that probes for this information and then verifys all of the installed ROM chips based on that. I don't even know if system 3 and 4 even store that information in the ROMs themselves. If they do, I am not seeing it from the hexdumps I get when I pull the chips.

If they do, I would imagine there is a way to get the info shown on the displays by using the stock ROMs, just like in system 6,6a, and 7 and if that's the case, it must be stored in the ROMs somewhere..

#316 1 year ago

I used the first byte in each white ROM game ROM which is the checksum byte to id the rom. Afaik it's not in the gamerom like the later systems.

#317 1 year ago

Hi pincoder, here's as much info as I can gather from my machines.

Format is game / display reading / game rom colour / mpu hardware

Flash 0486 2 yellow 6. Note there are two versions of Flash available, the game rom must match the flipper roms and the diag settings are slightly rearranged between the versions. The latter uses green flipper roms

Time Warp 1489 2 green, 6. This has the fault that if the ball drain switch bounces then background sound ceases.
There is a home brew correction rom for this fault, but it introduces another fault that the pops don't score correctly!

Gorgar 1496 1 green 6
Firepower 1497 2 green 6
Jungle Lord 2503 2 blue 7
Laser Cue 2520 2 blue 7

Barracora 2510 1 blue rottendog (I think it's 1, dodgy display so might be 0 - sorry)

Phoenix the first diagnostic setting shows first default replay score. The game roms are white, even though this is regarded a sys4 game.
Sys4 games would normally have yellow roms

World Cup the first diagnostic setting shows first default replay score. The game roms are white, but one of them is unique to this game.

In the diy adapter I build for your test routines I used the spare space to place copies of the various flipper roms so I could use them if needed.

Thanks again for your efforts.

#318 1 year ago
Quoted from SYS6:

There is a home brew correction rom for this fault, but it introduces another fault that the pops don't score correctly!

This is not true the ONE pop that scored differently has been fixed.

#319 1 year ago

Thanks for all your help! Very interesting feedback. Seems they didnt offer a lot of consistency on this topic. Using an 8 bit checksum vs. 16 bits in others, plus, the locations of such. I'm also now starting to wonder if in the patches they made to the roms they were also adjusting the checksum. One would hope so.

@slochar:
> I used the first byte in each white ROM game ROM which is the checksum byte to id the rom. Afaik it's not in the gamerom like the later systems.

This doesn't match up for me (the first byte is not an 8 bit checksum value of the entire image). I've always wondered what that first byte was for..

@sys6:
> Flash 0486 2 yellow 6. Note there are two versions of Flash available, the game rom must match the flipper roms and the diag settings are slightly rearranged between the versions. The latter uses green flipper roms

Odd that version 2 of flash is yellow, while version 1 is green. (at least by the zip name: flash_l1.zip) Perhaps they mean version 1 of the green set.

> Barracora 2510 1 blue rottendog (I think it's 1, dodgy display so might be 0 - sorry)

You are correct. it is a 1

> Sys4 games would normally have yellow roms

The only game I'm seeing with yellow ROMSs is Stellar Wars.. and I agree.. you'd think white=sys3 and yellow=sys4 but this is not the case. Color must just be strictly about flipper ROM version.

I'll think some more on how to go about this. The purpose of the new test ROM would be to calculate a checksum for each of the ROMs on a board, and then compare to well-known checksum values. A proper solution to this would eliminate the need for a second chip programmed with the PATTxxxx.bin files, while also being able to pinpoint which ROM chips/sockets were bad, all in a single test ROM.

Thanks again for your feedback

#320 1 year ago

The first byte is the result of just doing addition of every single byte in the ROM including the os roms, the game ROM, AND the empty space between most game Roms and the os roms. I can dig out the code if you're interested. Probably more accurate to refer to that first byte as the checksum correction byte.

Contemporaneous maker's games do the eight bit single byte sumup as well. Bally games require each $400 block have it's own check byte. System 80 each $100 has a check byte but not within the block.

#321 1 year ago
Quoted from SYS6:

There is a home brew correction rom for this fault, but it introduces another fault that the pops don't score correctly!

Quoted from slochar:

This is not true the ONE pop that scored differently has been fixed.

There is a Time Warp game rom labeled L3 which does show this fault, that is a fact. For example see this discussion
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/l-3-time-warp-game-romfirmware

If what you are saying is that this fault has been fixed, then great. Perhaps you could post a link to the updated version.

#322 1 year ago
Quoted from pincoder:

....
SYS6:
> Flash 0486 2 yellow 6. Note there are two versions of Flash available, the game rom must match the flipper roms and the diag settings are slightly rearranged between the versions. The latter uses green flipper roms
Odd that version 2 of flash is yellow, while version 1 is green. (at least by the zip name: flash_l1.zip) Perhaps they mean version 1 of the green set.

....

> Sys4 games would normally have yellow roms
The only game I'm seeing with yellow ROMSs is Stellar Wars.. and I agree.. you'd think white=sys3 and yellow=sys4 but this is not the case. Color must just be strictly about flipper ROM version.

pincoder Sorry, maybe take my Flash yellow game rom comment with a grain of salt. It was a game I restored over ten years ago and I see the flipper roms have labels that are not original and shows no colour like the WMS ones - it's possible I printed them. I just don't recall.

There is some commentary on Flash roms here; https://www.actionpinball.com/parts.php?item=ROMS116

#323 1 year ago
Quoted from SYS6:

There is a Time Warp game rom labeled L3 which does show this fault, that is a fact

Yes it's one pop bumper. Has been fixed. The fix is also l3. I think it's funny that you're telling the author of the patch what is and what isn't available

I'll look around for it but pretty sure the fixed one ended up on ipdb. If that's still the flawed one then that's on whoever uploaded the wrong one there.

EDIT: Yup, the one on ipdb.org is the fixed one.

1 week later
#324 1 year ago

Hi All. I've been working with a set of Hyperball boards and have created a "13-hyperball" test ROM in the sys7 set. It allows you to test the alphanumeric display located under the playfield. While I've already fully tested here, I'd certainly appreciate it if you have access to a Hyperball game and could run the test for me and send me some feedback.

https://pincoder.ca/?smd_process_download=1&download_id=476

Thanks!
Craig

EDIT: BEFORE YOU RUN ANY OF THE INCLUDED TESTS ON A HYPERBALL (INCLUDING 13-HYPERBALL) DISCONNECT 2J5 BEFORE PROCEEEDING. THIS WILL PREVENT ACCIDENTAL AND PROLONGED ACTIVATION OF THE BALL FEED AND SHOOTER COIL.

1 week later
#325 1 year ago

pincoder I fired up my Tri Zone and for ID it reports 1487 1, uses green flipper roms and hardware version 6 mpu board.

#326 1 year ago
Quoted from SYS6:

pincoder I fired up my Tri Zone and for ID it reports 1487 1, uses green flipper roms and hardware version 6 mpu board.

Awesome! Thank you

11 months later
#327 3 months ago

I have a problem/question:

CMOS test, 03-cmos-IC19 (Williams sys346), System 6 board.

I have two 5101s, two NVRAM 5101 boards, and none of them pass the CMOS test.

I have run the clear CMOS test first (seems to be ok, both lights on the MPU are solid), have ensured I'm plugged into the middle lower rom socket (IC17), replaced all sockets for the ROMs (IC 20, 17, 14), replaced socket for the 5101 (IC 19), verified orientation of the 5101 (because I have plugged chips backwards before!).

The board seems to pass all the tests I've thrown at it so far - blanking, ram 13 & 16, displays.

I have one of those cool Siegecraft WMS diagnostic switches on 1J4.

The MPU is not in a game, but on a bench, and I'm supplying +12VDC and +5VDC from an external power supply.

I'm not suspecting my power supply, the through-holes as I replaced sockets, the CPU or PIA - have done a fair amount of testing those.

Same CMOS results (bottom led blinking) on two seperate and (I think) working WMS 6 MPUs.

Board boots, I get blanking, and goes into Audit mode but I can't seem to get out of that... but that's why I'm here, I am testing out the CMOS chip and not sure what's wrong with it, if anything at all?

WMS-SYS6_R001B (resized).jpgWMS-SYS6_R001B (resized).jpgWMS-SYS6_R002B (resized).jpgWMS-SYS6_R002B (resized).jpgWMS-SYS6_R003B (resized).jpgWMS-SYS6_R003B (resized).jpg
#328 3 months ago

The CMOS test requires the coin door be open. At the moment, I dont recall whether you need a switch simulating that while it's on the bench, but this is likely the issue you are seeing.

Additionally, just so you're aware, the clear_cmos is only required after running the cmos test, and really only if you are using NVRAM, or if you are running 5101 and dont want to remove the batteries afterwards.

Having a cleared CMOS will cause the Williams ROM to boot into attract mode and therefore rewrite the correct CMOS values for the game. Of course, the coin door must be open for it to succeed. After this the next power up will go into attract mode.

#329 3 months ago
Quoted from pincoder:

I dont recall whether you need a switch simulating that while it's on the bench

  • WMS3-4.wms3-4.jpgwms3-4.jpg
  • WMS6.wms6.jpgwms6.jpg

Note the signal is ~MEMORY_PROTECT or /MEMORY_PROTECT. This means the signal is active low. Closing the coin door switch will complete the circuit to ground and make the signal low. Leaving the coin door switch open will keep the circuit isolated and make the signal high. This means that without the coin door switch, the switch is considered open which is high and the ~MEMORY_PROTECT signal is high which means it is not active.

#330 3 months ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

WMS3-4.[quoted image]
WMS6.[quoted image]

Note the signal is ~MEMORY_PROTECT or /MEMORY_PROTECT. This means the signal is active low. Closing the coin door switch will complete the circuit to ground and make the signal low. Leaving the coin door switch open will keep the circuit isolated and make the signal high. This means that without the coin door switch, the switch is considered open which is high and the ~MEMORY_PROTECT signal is high which means it is not active.

I think I pick up what you're puttin' down.

Without the coin door switch in place, memory protect is inactive; as in the coin door is read as open...?

If I understand that right, memory protect switch on the siegecraft board does not make any difference to the CMOS test.

I assume normally memory protect would be off which would be what the pincoder is looking for.

But something else is weird; may not be pincoder I'm having difficutly with at all, but I don't have a switch matrix tester either (have been assuming columns and rows on the driver board and been using alligator clips to simulate switch presses) - I cannot get either of these two WMS6 MPUs to move out of audit mode.

Have checked batteries, polarity, have used new NVRAM (the 5101 aftermarket types), and two 5101 chips - none of these seem to hold memory settings in order to get out of audit mode.

I am going to do further testing now that I understand (?) the memory protect circuit and its relation to the CMOS test with Pincoder. I would hope I don't have two bad 5101s and two bad aftermarket boards, but I've been unlucky before!

#331 3 months ago
Quoted from pb456:

If I understand that right, memory protect switch on the siegecraft board does not make any difference to the CMOS test.

I am not familiar with the board. You should consult Siegecraft (the manufacturer) for more information. It does look like there is a single DIP switch that allows changing the ~MEMORY_PROTECT signal state.

Quoted from pb456:

I assume normally memory protect would be off which would be what the pincoder is looking for.

The "fallout" (result from the ~MEMORY_PROTECT signal) is not under software control. The only thing that software would be looking for is the ability to be able to change the contents of the protected area of the address space. This happens to match part of the address space where the CMOS (5101) is mapped.

memory_protect.jpgmemory_protect.jpg

1 week later
#332 86 days ago

DumbAss I'm reading it clearer today.

Forgive me OP (or Pinside) if this is off-topic.

But from what I understand:

1. Without the Siegecraft board on 1J4, the MPU sees the coin door as open.

2. The MPU does not control write protection to the 5101, it relies on the 1J4-1 circuit to be open, thus MEMORY_PROTECT should be high to enable writes through AND gate IC12 and OR gate at IC27.

Do I have that correct?

#333 85 days ago
Quoted from pb456:

2. The MPU does not control write protection to the 5101, it relies on the 1J3-1 circuit to be open, thus MEMORY_PROTECT should be high to enable writes through AND gate IC12 and OR gate at IC27.

Not quite.

  • The raw signal from the coin door is ~MEMORY_PROTECT. This is an active LOW signal. The signal is pulled up to HIGH by the pull up resistor. It is driven LOW when the coin door switch is closed. No coin door switch = signal is HIGH (pulled up).
  • The ~MEMORY_PROTECT signal is inverted through the NAND gate at IC24 (not shown above but is in the schematic). This converts the signal from ~MEMORY_PROTECT (active LOW) to MEMORY_PROTECT (active HIGH).
  • Since the coin door switch is not present, the MEMORY_PROTECT signal is LOW.
  • This feeds into the AND gate at IC12 and goes from there.

If you want even more detail I can write it up but I suspect it would be meaningless and uninteresting to > 99.99999% of the reading audience.

#334 79 days ago

So DumbAss, See if I have this right. I.E. In terms a dumb ass like me can understand .

*** Coin Door Closed: Memory Protect Enabled = Coin Door Switch Closed = Logic Level: (Low)

*** Coin Door Open : Memory Protect Disabled = Coin Door Switch Open = Logic Level: (High)
This is the same as no switch connected during bench testing, ie No connections to 1J4.

#335 79 days ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

Not quite.

The raw signal from the coin door is ~MEMORY_PROTECT. This is an active LOW signal. The signal is pulled up to HIGH by the pull up resistor. It is driven LOW when the coin door switch is closed. No coin door switch = signal is HIGH (pulled up).
The ~MEMORY_PROTECT signal is inverted through the NAND gate at IC24 (not shown above but is in the schematic). This converts the signal from ~MEMORY_PROTECT (active LOW) to MEMORY_PROTECT (active HIGH).
Since the coin door switch is not present, the MEMORY_PROTECT signal is LOW.
This feeds into the AND gate at IC12 and goes from there.

If you want even more detail I can write it up but I suspect it would be meaningless and uninteresting to > 99.99999% of the reading audience.

So DumbAss, See if I have this right. I.E. In terms a dumb ass like me can understand .

*** Coin Door Closed: Memory Protect Enabled = Coin Door Switch Closed = Logic Level: (Low)

*** Coin Door Open : Memory Protect Disabled = Coin Door Switch Open = Logic Level: (High)
This is the same as no switch connected during bench testing, ie No connections to 1J4.

#336 79 days ago
Quoted from billsacto:

*** Coin Door Closed: Memory Protect Enabled = Coin Door Switch Closed = Logic Level: (Low)
*** Coin Door Open : Memory Protect Disabled = Coin Door Switch Open = Logic Level: (High)
This is the same as no switch connected during bench testing, ie No connections to 1J4.

Yes and no.

Strictly, if you're testing on a bench you will need to access the diagnostic menu. This is done through 1J4. 1J4-1 is ~MEMORY_PROTECT in WMS6 and WMS7. In WMS3 and WMS4 1J4-1 is the key pin. So saying "No connections to 1J4" is not quite correct. It's no connection to 1J4-1. If you put the Siegecraft thingy on the header, it covers all 4 pins so you need to know if there are connections (related to 1J4-1) on that board or not. Only Siegecraft (or visually inspecting the traces) can answer that question.

Note that 1J3-1 is also the same signal in WMS6 and WMS7.

EDIT: Add wiring diagram to show the physical switch and how it connects with 1J4.

1J4.jpg1J4.jpg

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