(Topic ID: 222797)

NEW! Williams System 3-7 In-Game Test ROMs


By pincoder

1 year ago



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  • 225 posts
  • 31 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 days ago by slochar
  • Topic is favorited by 59 Pinsiders

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There are 225 posts in this topic. You are on page 5 of 5.
#201 4 months ago

FYI:

I'm in the process of making a device that won't require the use of any ROMs at all.. so you won't need a chip programmer either. It will also support running 3rd party ROMs too, including the original game ROM so you can leave it in the machine if you so desire. It's still not ready to be manufactured but the prototype works like a charm!

At the moment it will support the Williams 3-7 games, but it should be compatible in the future with other games as well. More details as they surface

#202 3 months ago

My blog on my implementation in case it helps someone to build their own.

http://www.edcheung.com/album/album05/pinball/cpub.htm#pincoder

9FCCB059-2325-4DE3-9C6B-3A04E7B2B8D3 (resized).jpeg
#203 3 months ago
Quoted from beaver:

My blog on my implementation in case it helps someone to build their own./>

Thanks @beaver !

#204 3 months ago

Thanks for making this software available pincoder

I used a W27C010 (128k x 8 ) for the Sys7 version, similar construction technique to above.
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#205 3 months ago

I am having some difficulty with the blanking test (Test 02). With the standard ROMs I get a period of ~8msec on the output of IC7. But with the pincoder ROMs I get a 50 usec period. This faster rate prevents the blanking timer circuit from detecting the pulses. Anyone have this?

#206 3 months ago
Quoted from beaver:

I am having some difficulty with the blanking test (Test 02). With the standard ROMs I get a period of ~8msec on the output of IC7. But with the pincoder ROMs I get a 50 usec period. This faster rate prevents the blanking timer circuit from detecting the pulses. Anyone have this?

Interesting. I just tested my system 6 board and get 8.36ms on the 02-blanking test, and almost exactly that with the GREEN ROM.. What game/board are you troubleshooting?

For what it's worth, the blanking test does nothing but loop until it's time to toggle the input pin (pin 5) of IC7. then it uses an EORA to invert the correct bit in the PIA1_A register.

If your clock speed checks out then it is peculiar that the bit in the PIA register would show signs of toggle so much faster than the CPU even asks.. I can't say I've ever seen that before. Please let me know what you find

#207 3 months ago
Quoted from SYS6:

Thanks for making this software available pincoder
I used a W27C010 (128k x 8 ) for the Sys7 version, similar construction technique to above.

Nice to see a variation on the chip used, and that you have made a board that splits things by 4K chunks

#208 3 months ago
Quoted from pincoder:

Interesting. I just tested my system 6 board and get 8.36ms on the 02-blanking test, and almost exactly that with the GREEN ROM.. What game/board are you troubleshooting?
For what it's worth, the blanking test does nothing but loop until it's time to toggle the input pin (pin 5) of IC7. then it uses an EORA to invert the correct bit in the PIA1_A register.
If your clock speed checks out then it is peculiar that the bit in the PIA register would show signs of toggle so much faster than the CPU even asks.. I can't say I've ever seen that before. Please let me know what you find

This is on a System 3. I do not know what the identity is of the other ROMs.

Note that test 1 (LEDs flash) looks like it is toggling flashing around 2hz rate.

#209 3 months ago

System 3 & 4 boards use the 6875 for the clock generation. Might be worth looking at it to see what it is producing.

#210 3 months ago
Quoted from SYS6:

System 3 & 4 boards use the 6875 for the clock generation. Might be worth looking at it to see what it is producing.

Frequency is just under 1 MHz. Both my System 3 and 4 boards look the same.

0C200399-BFEC-4C5C-9381-C10E3CD5EC73 (resized).jpeg
#211 3 months ago

My system 6 is giving me 3.2hz on the LED's test.

The sys346 02-blanking ROM in the latest beta download (pincoder_roms_2019.10.29.1803_beta) can be modified at the locations shown in blue.. Currently the value is 01D0 (msb to lsb) and the value is simply a 16 bit "sleep" counter number used in the X register for creating a simple delay. At this stage of the test ROMS I don't want to rely on the external interrupt for calculating a proper delay as it requires the proper functioning of additional circuitry (the IRQ circuitry), which gets tested in later ROMs anyway.

So I will focus on getting a suitable counter value for system3-4. However, I don't have any 3-4 boards to test with.

On a system 6 board counting down to zero from 01D0 (hexadecimal) yeilds a toggle period of 8.3ms on IC7 pin 5. This is what the system 6 Williams ROMs are also refreshing at.

beaver, if you have time would you mind playing around with the counter value in the beta image to see where it best matches the 8.3ms on the system 3 board? I will then test that number on my system 6 and see if it's still within reason. I may have to create a different binary for systems 3-4.

Thanks
02-blanking (resized).png

#212 3 months ago

I won’t have the time this week as I will be going out of town. I also have 2019.04.07.1941 which may be a release version. I will probably cut and paste the above revision into an unused slot on my ROM.

#213 3 months ago

Just did a calculation and we are a factor of 160 off from 8 msec. Multiplying that by 1D0 will exceed 16 bits.

1 week later
#214 3 months ago

I should have thought of this sooner, but thanks to some digging by beaver I remembered that the 02-blanking test in the current release version (2019.04.07.1941) does not have a delay built in for the blanking signal refresh. Apparently this causes system 3-4 boards to show incorrect results when running this ROM.

The latest beta download (2019.10.29.1803_beta) does have the correct delay loop, and therefore correct results with the 02-blanking on a system 3-4 board.

Sorry for the confusion folks!

#215 3 months ago

Merry Christmas everyone. Hope you all had a good one!

Check out the latest release version of pincoder ROMs: http://pincoder.ca/ccn/roms/pincoder_roms_2019.12.26.2048.zip

Changes since the previous release:

* Slowed pulse rate (PIA1 Pin 4 - PA2) on 02-blanking from 2500Hz down to 120Hz to match williams ROMs refresh rate.

* Eliminated ghosting from neighboring segments on displays.

* Added 11b-sounds test to allow sound card testing on the bench.

* Modified 10-solenoids to also fire a solenoid using the DIP_01 switch together with the COMMAND ENTER button on the MPU board. Some games do not have a HIGH SCORE RESET button.

* Temporarily removed sys7/2K images.

* Rewrote the documentation for "01b-bus". The ROM itself remains unchanged.

Enjoy!

1 month later
#216 63 days ago
Quoted from pincoder:

I should have thought of this sooner, but thanks to some digging by beaver I remembered that the 02-blanking test in the current release version (2019.04.07.1941) does not have a delay built in for the blanking signal refresh. Apparently this causes system 3-4 boards to show incorrect results when running this ROM.
The latest beta download (2019.10.29.1803_beta) does have the correct delay loop, and therefore correct results with the 02-blanking on a system 3-4 board.
Sorry for the confusion folks!

Quoted from beaver:

I am having some difficulty with the blanking test (Test 02). With the standard ROMs I get a period of ~8msec on the output of IC7. But with the pincoder ROMs I get a 50 usec period. This faster rate prevents the blanking timer circuit from detecting the pulses. Anyone have this?

First time poster here. Just wanted to say thanks to pincoder for the test ROMs, they were a *BIG* help in getting my friend's Flash MPU4 board working again.

We saw the same issue as beaver, where the banking keep-alive pulse was too short. It's not so much the keep-alive period that's the issue, but more the active time. I did an LTspice sim of the keep-alive + 555 (1/2 of 556) and it confirmed what we were seeing on the board, which was that the blanking keep-alive wasn't long enough to reset the 556 timeout.

One interesting thing that we did find was that post-MPU4 designs added a 6.8K pulldown (R95), creating a voltage divider at the base of Q5. If R95 is added to the MPU4 board, then the blanking test ROM keeps the 556 retriggered and BLANKING stays asserted.

A bit of disassembly of the blanking test ROM confirms that there is a rather short loop (22 clocks) for each high/low time of the blanking keep-alive waveform, which matches the observed keep-alive waveform. Also interesting is that the two MPU LEDs are also being toggled, but the toggles aren't observable at 20 KHz

Another observation in looking at the disassembled code is that the blanking test appears to require that the 256 bytes of RAM be functional, both as scratchpad (RAM 00-03) and for stack usage (RAM FE-FF) in subroutine calls. In an earlier post it was mentioned that blanking was one of the tests that didn't require functional RAM.

pincoder : I can PM you with the disassembled if that is helpful, although it sounnds like you've resolved the issue with new update. Not sure where we got the ROMs, but it was within the past two months. Here's the version header from the blanking ROM. The date stamp on your updated ROMs is after we downloaded them. Will download the new version and test them.

FCC "PinCoder Format: 6"
FCB $00
FCC "Title: 02-blanking"
FCB $00
FCC "Version: 2019.04.07.1941"
FCB $00

A snapshot of the LTSpice sim is attached. If interested I can also attach the LTSpice sim files. The cursor shows that Vtrig (base of Q1) never gets below the trigger voltage of 1/3 VCC which is required to restart the 556 one-shot timer. Adding R95 biases the base low enough even a short keep-alive pulse is enough to reset the timer.
LTSpice sim of BLANKING keep-alive in test ROM (resized).png

#217 61 days ago

Excellent research! This ROM has been driving me a little nuts as I don't have any system 3 or 4 machines to test with.

According to beaver the latest ROMs (2019.12.26.2048) work in his system 3, but I've also had someone tell me that the same version didn't work in theirs.

I would very much like a copy of your sim files. Thank you. I'd like to come up with a ROM that will work for all of them as it would be disheartening to have to split the sys346 set out into their own binaries.

So yes please send me anything you think I will need to do some testing. I'll post an updated version as soon as I come up with something. It sounds like it'll be just a matter of changing the length of low side of the cycle but I'll need something that works with or without the voltage divider and still resembles the output of the Williams ROMs.

Thanks again for the good work and the detailed update! I'm looking forward to running some spice tests!

Oh and you're right, the blanking test isn't supposed to depend on RAM. I'll look into that. In the mean time please let me know how the 2019.12.26.2048 version works for you. I'm glad these ROMs helped you

#218 60 days ago

@pincoder I don't see how to attach the LTSpice files. I tried a PM but still didn't see a way to attach files. If I can't send files via pinside, then PM your email address and I'll send the files.

A few notes on running the sim. Not sure if your familiarity with Spice models, but the timing of pulse generator, V2, can be adjusted by changing the parameters by right-clicking on the parameters.

- R95 can be connected in/out of the circuit in 2 different ways
1. Cut the wire at the top end of R95 for MPU4 circuitry, reconnect for later MPU boards. This was the method I used
2. Leave R95 connected for all sims, but use a high resistance value (e.g. 1MEG *not 1M*) for MPU4 and older

- Change the pulse generator timing in PULSE(0 5 100m 10n 10n 25u 50u 50). The last 3 parameters are what you may want to change. These parameters are defined as follows
25u = 25 microsecond pulse high time
50u = 50 microsecond pulse period
50 = number of pulses to generate

1 month later
#219 13 days ago

I want to thank pincoder for these test ROMs. And also CFH and others for countless resources over the years getting me to this point in my repair abilities.

In short:

A) I had a Pharaoh (sys7) that stopped booting and I was able to:

B) erase and burn my first ROMs ever
C) run successfully test ROM 01a-leds.bin
D) use a logic probe for the first time
E) fix my game

Long version:

A) My Pharaoh was working great for about a year then it decided to stop booting. Game would fire a random coil/sound at startup and would immediately freeze the 0 on MPU board. GI only - no attract lamps, no displays. 12V and 5V on MPU board tested good. I had previously followed Clay's guide and had done recommended upgrades - 40 pins/connector, new MPU 1J2 connector/header, resolder all headers, driver board R149-R156.

Decided it was finally time to try out my GQ-4X4 rom burner, logic probe and 2532 EPROMS that have been sitting unused in a drawer for between 6 months to 2 years. :-O

B) Not being a recent Windows user I struggled a bit getting the USBPrg software to recognize the GQ-4X4 device. Ah yes, needs a driver installed - been a while since I've done that. Then a youtube video or 2 to see how to burn arcade ROMs with the device. Seemed to work well - it is fun. Burned the first few test ROMs.

C) Popped out the Blue flipper ROM #2 and installed ROM 01a-leds.bin. Did not seem to work. Same results - random coil/sound at startup then would immediately freeze on a randmom digit. Sometimes would just freeze at 0. Twisted some of the socketed chips. No changes.

D) Then with one of the many bootups it started to run its test - digit counted up from 0-9 twice before it crashed. At least I now knew what the test should look like. I could coax it to run briefly maybe 25% of the bootups. I did probe some of the suggested IC pins and was able to at least learn how to use the probe. So, progress. Pulses were matching the test notes at least while test was running and then they'd go hi or lo when things crashed.

E) On a whim I replaced the AMI 6808 CPU at IC1 with the CPU chip from my Cosmic Gunfight. It ran the ROM 01a-leds.bin test perfectly several times in a row!! I seem to recall a Clay/ninja video questioning the long-term viability of these AMI chips. So I put the game ROM back in and things are booting and playing perfectly!!!

So again, thanks to all the repair helpers out there who have taught me stuff over the years. Not much of a "repair", but I did learn a lot today.

#220 13 days ago

I noticed the CPU socket was by RN - are those suspect and should I replace the socket if things are working?

#221 13 days ago
Quoted from jeffc:

I want to thank pincoder for these test ROMs. And also CFH and others for countless resources over the years getting me to this point in my repair abilities.

Awesome! Nice Going! and thanks for letting me know they helped you! Did you also run through the rest of the tests? You might find switch problems, etc that could improve the game play (if it's unnoticably lacking).

Swapping the CPU's may have been enough to point a fault at the socket as well. You could always go back to the old chip and see if there's any change. At any rate, swapping the socket wouldn't be a bad idea, especially if you happen to have a proper heat gun to pull the old one out. If not you can always pull it using the old fashioned way

#222 11 days ago

I did not run more than the 01a and 01b tests. I got too excited with the success of the borrowed CPU chip. I did try the suspect AMI chip in the Cosmic Gunfight and it failed to boot there as well. So I'm thinking my sockets are OK at least for now.

I did read through all the tests and may try them in the future - cool stuff. I am intrigued by the display test's easter egg and was amused with your names for all of the different sounds! "Alien Evaporation" is my favorite, lol. Reminds me of a friend whose summer job was coming up with names for different house paint colors. They declined to adopt her suggestion of Charlie Brown, lol.

Thanks again.

#223 11 days ago
Quoted from jeffc:

I noticed the CPU socket was by RN - are those suspect and should I replace the socket if things are working?

It is the Scanbe sockets in system 3 and 4 games that usually cause problems.

#224 10 days ago
Quoted from jeffc:

I did not run more than the 01a and 01b tests. I got too excited with the success of the borrowed CPU chip. I did try the suspect AMI chip in the Cosmic Gunfight and it failed to boot there as well. So I'm thinking my sockets are OK at least for now.
I did read through all the tests and may try them in the future - cool stuff. I am intrigued by the display test's easter egg and was amused with your names for all of the different sounds! "Alien Evaporation" is my favorite, lol. Reminds me of a friend whose summer job was coming up with names for different house paint colors. They declined to adopt her suggestion of Charlie Brown, lol.
Thanks again.

Glad they helped you and I'm always looking for feedback so its good to hear good things I've always wondered if those names actually resembled the same thing to everyone else. It's too bad about your friend.. he could have made them millions had they followed his advice!

#225 9 days ago

If the tension seems bad in the RN sockets, or the chips in them were really corroded, might be a good idea to replace.

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