(Topic ID: 222797)

NEW! Williams System 3-7 In-Game Test ROMs


By pincoder

1 year ago



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  • 196 posts
  • 29 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 10 days ago by kevinclark
  • Topic is favorited by 49 Pinsiders

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There are 196 posts in this topic. You are on page 4 of 4.
#151 5 months ago

Sorry for the dumb question but to clarify my understanding when I am planning to test system 7 boards that are set up for ic17 as a 2532 I use the 4k files in an adapter board with a 128k eeprom, (4k individual test size x 32 tests = 128k, even though tests 23 to 31 are empty). A0 to A11 go from test eeprom to the mpu board, A12 to A15 are used to select the test via dips.

What is the suggested 128k eeprom to use? Thanks for the help or clarification.

#152 5 months ago

No hook a0 to a11 to their corresponding pins(correct), then a12 to a16 (5 pos dip) to the dips. You need a 5 pos dip for 32 slots

#153 5 months ago

Use what ever 128k you can find. find the data sheet that is relevent to that chip. I had trouble finding a 64k
. It will be somthing like 28c1024 or 27c1024

#154 5 months ago

Sorry was just looking at the data sheet for a 27c1024. they are 16x64kbit 16 address pins(including a0). So will only break down in to 8K(64kbit)chunks. That is in a 4k slot. I believe it will break down in to 32 in a 2k

#155 5 months ago

Common 128kbit 128k Byte EPROMs are 27C010 and 27C1001 - these are same pinout, note these are 32 pin parts.
The Winbond W27C010 is an EEPROM (electrically erasable).

#156 5 months ago

They need 128kbyte

#157 5 months ago

Sorry, that's a typo in my previous post - 27C010 and 27C1001 are 128k Byte parts.

#158 5 months ago

Ok W27C010 looks like a go, 17 address lines. Havent personally tried this, but from my understanding this should work.

#159 5 months ago
Quoted from Nusilor:

Sorry was just looking at the data sheet for a 27c1024. they are 16x64kbit 16 address pins(including a0). So will only break down in to 8K(64kbit)chunks. That is in a 4k slot. I believe it will break down in to 32 in a 2k

In choosing a chip, you should stick to 8 bit chips (Chips with D0-D8) as using higher width chips such as 16 bit chips (D0-D15) will be wasteful, in terms of usable storage. Remember, this era of pinball machines are only 8 bits wide and so the excess data pins on the wider chip will go unused.

You also need to think about timing/response time and handshaking signals of the chip you choose. They must match the 2716 and 2732 chip specification and be at least as fast as that.

No matter the size of the chip, they will always break down into 2K chunks using A0-A10. 4K chunks would need A0-A11. 8K chunks A0-A12, etc. Any extra address lines on the chip you choose should each be routed (in order) to a DIP switch.

The bigger the chip, the more chunks you get. System 7 boards (in system 7 mode) need 4K chunks. A system 7 board in system 6 or earlier mode will need 2K chunks. System 6,4,3 also need 2K chunks.

For those that don't quite know how to decide, I'm likely going with an SST39SF040 (512k x 8 bits) when I do start putting some pre-programmed adapter boards up for sale. In the mean time, if you decide on a different chip that works please feel free to chime in, and post your design for others if you like.

SST39SF0x0 (resized).png

Here's where you can get the 39SF040 from digikey (digikey part# SST39SF040-70-4C-PHE-ND) in Canada:

https://www.digikey.ca/products/en/integrated-circuits-ics/memory/774?k=sst39sf040&k=&pkeyword=sst39sf040&sv=0&pv1291=3756&sf=0&FV=ffe00306&quantity=&ColumnSort=0&page=1&pageSize=25

Don't forget to use a chip that your chip programmer supports, and use a socket on your adapter board - you'll need to quickly remove the chip to program it with newer versions of ROMs HINT: Make your life easy and use a ZIF socket!

#160 5 months ago

Yeah that was basically what i was trying to say, you done a way better job . Old mate still will still need a w27c010 for a 4k machine if he wants 32 slots.

#161 5 months ago

Hey, with 17 address lines in a 2k machine wont that break down in to 1k chunks. That is the
SST39SF040

#162 5 months ago

Nm its a 4mb chip and has 19 address lines. I suppose this is the go then. Many lols, 256 slots for 2k and 128 for 4

#163 5 months ago

Thanks all for the comments and clarifications.

1 month later
#164 3 months ago

Working on a Sys 7 Laser Cue board that does not have the LEDs. I found that I can logic probe them from the empty pads next to the 7 segment LED. I made a video to pay it forward.

Thanks for these roms!

#165 3 months ago
Quoted from Cheddar:

Working on a Sys 7 Laser Cue board that does not have the LEDs. I found that I can logic probe them from the empty pads next to the 7 segment LED. I made a video to pay it forward.
Thanks for these roms!

Nice trick!

#166 3 months ago

http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_3_-_7#System_7_MPU_Test_Pad_Info

You can probe almost all of the signals right on the unpopulated connector in the lower right. Very handy.

#167 3 months ago
Quoted from slochar:

http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_3_-_7#System_7_MPU_Test_Pad_Info
You can probe almost all of the signals right on the unpopulated connector in the lower right. Very handy.

very handy thank you

#168 3 months ago

Actually, you can also go by the upside-down-and-backward-F that is showing on the 7 segment display. Not sure what that character is supposed to be, but if your board is flashing that character it also means a pass. Thanks for posting that video cheddar. Are you able to post a video or picture of what the 7 segment looks like when a fail is indicated? I don't have my system 7 machine anymore.. if you have a socketed RAM or CMOS chip you could pull it out and run the test to get the failure.

#169 3 months ago
Quoted from pincoder:

Actually, you can also go by the upside-down-and-backward-F that is showing on the 7 segment display. Not sure what that character is supposed to be, but if your board is flashing that character it also means a pass. Thanks for posting that video cheddar. Are you able to post a video or picture of what the 7 segment looks like when a fail is indicated? I don't have my system 7 machine anymore.. if you have a socketed RAM or CMOS chip you could pull it out and run the test to get the failure.

I'll send you links to the videos in a little bit

#170 3 months ago

Failed ROM Test on board w/o LEDs

Passed ROM Test on board w/o LEDs

#171 3 months ago

Awesome thank you!!

#172 3 months ago

edit - I had a goofy question here and removed it.

1 week later
#173 3 months ago

Hey guys, I have a results question. With 2 sets of verified roms (barracora) I get the following results:
Boots to 0, goes out, 8 shows on the LED, then 0 stays on
Press the diagnostic and I get a 5

The displays do not come on.

After doing the CMOS Test I did the CMOS init. Could the 8 be not having a battery pack attached?

I have tested the CMOS ram several times with the pincoder test and it passes every time.

Is the next step to replace the 5101 ram?

#174 3 months ago
Quoted from Cheddar:

Hey guys, I have a results question. With 2 sets of verified roms (barracora) I get the following results:
Boots to 0, goes out, 8 shows on the LED, then 0 stays on
Press the diagnostic and I get a 5
The displays do not come on.
After doing the CMOS Test I did the CMOS init. Could the 8 be not having a battery pack attached?
I have tested the CMOS ram several times with the pincoder test and it passes every time.
Is the next step to replace the 5101 ram?

The init-cmos ROM has only ever been verified to run on Gorgar and Black Knight. It's possible that other games have slightly different settings and slamming Gorgar settings into another sys3-6 game or slamming Black Knight settings into another sys 7 is technically invalid. This could be causing the 8 to flash.

So for you I'd say run the clear-cmos and then boot the game normally and see if it's happy. Since the CMOS test ROM runs fine you don't need a new CMOS (5101) chip.

On another note, in order for the init_cmos ROM to work on a different game I'd need someone to send the me default settings for that game. To do this you would run the clear_cmos ROM, then the Williams ROM twice with the door open. Once the game is in attract mode the CMOS chip would contain the actual default values for that game. From there you would power down (with batteries installed) and then run the edit_cmos ROM.

Once the edit_cmos ROM is running you would step through all of the addresses in the CMOS chip and look at the value stored in that address. If it's non-zero write the address and value down and move on to the next address.

When writing them down I specify them in sets of two. This is because they are actually 4 bit values and so the GAME ROMs need two addresses to store a single 8-bit value).

So for example, here is what the sys7 init_cmos ROM uses to initialize the CMOS chip (remember, these values are taken from Black Knight):

ENT_103 .db 2,0
ENT_125 .db 11,2
ENT_127 .db 10,5
ENT_129 .db 2,5 ; Default 2,5 # HSTD (2,500,000)
ENT_131 .db 1,1 ; Default 1,0 # replay 1 (1,100,000) - setting 14 in Williams ROM
ENT_133 .db 2,2 ; Default 2,0 # replay 2 (2,200,000) - setting 15 in Williams ROM
ENT_135 .db 3,3 ; Default 0,0 # replay 3 (3,300,000) - setting 16 in Williams ROM
ENT_137 .db 4,4 ; Default 0,0 # replay 4 (4,400,000) - setting 16 in Williams ROM
ENT_145 .db 0,3
ENT_147 .db 0,5
ENT_149 .db 0,5
ENT_151 .db 0,0
ENT_153 .db 0,3
ENT_155 .db 3,0
ENT_157 .db 0,1
ENT_163 .db 0,1
ENT_165 .db 0,1
ENT_167 .db 0,3
ENT_169 .db 0,4
ENT_171 .db 0,0 ; Default 3,0 # MAX_CREDITS (00) - setting 18 in Williams ROM
ENT_173 .db 0,1
ENT_175 .db 0,1
ENT_177 .db 0,4
ENT_179 .db 0,1
ENT_181 .db 0,2
ENT_183 .db 0,4

This basically says:

- Addresses 0 thru 102 are zero.
- Addresses 103 and 104 have a value of 2 and 0 respectively.
- Addresses 125 and 126 have a value of 11 and 2 respectively.
.
.
- Addresses 183 and 184 have a value of 0 and 4 respectively.
- Addresses 185 and up are zero.

FORMAT: The values after the .db are the values that init-cmos writes to the CMOS chip. When I've changed them to a non-default value I include a comment and state the default value. So for example to place the game into free-play mode I set a new default value for MAX_CREDITS by setting 171 and 172 from 3 and 0 (thirty) to 0 and 0 (zero).

If anyone wants to take the time to do this for their game and send me the results I'd be happy to make an init-CMOS ROM specifically for that game. Don't worry about having to decipher what the values in each address means just send me the numbers and I'll make the ROM stick to the defaults. If you want to take the time to verify what each address is used for (like I did for 129-138 and 171-172) that would be a bonus! (edit the value and reboot into the GAME to look for a change in behavior). Alternatively you could write the default numbers down then boot into the game, change one of the settings or insert a coin, power down, run the edit_cmos again and take note of the changes.

EDIT: The only difference between the init_cmos ROM and the clear_cmos ROM is that:

- clear_cmos sets ALL the values in the CMOS chip to zero (causing the Williams ROM to set its default values on the first boot)

while:

- init_cmos does that too and then sets some non-zero values (effectively setting defaults so you dont have to boot the game with the door open twice).

Let me know if you need more clarification

#175 3 months ago

I ran the clear cmos rom and still get the same result.

I've put it aside while I do more research. I am working on another sys7 (I have 2 that don't work) board that boots just fine except it doesn't start the attract mode. I can enter diagnostics so clearly it's running. I can execute the tests. Still looking into this one too.

#176 3 months ago
Quoted from Cheddar:

I ran the clear cmos rom and still get the same result.
I've put it aside while I do more research. I am working on another sys7 (I have 2 that don't work) board that boots just fine except it doesn't start the attract mode. I can enter diagnostics so clearly it's running. I can execute the tests. Still looking into this one too.

Interesting. Keep me posted.

#177 3 months ago
Quoted from pincoder:

Interesting. Keep me posted.

This board had a bad diagnostics switch. I was able to spoof it and I get an error 7 (bad ic26). I have tested that and it passes so I am verifying the solder work on the socket.

#178 3 months ago
Quoted from pincoder:

On another note, in order for the init_cmos ROM to work on a different game I'd need someone to send the me default settings for that game.

Another way to check for the same default cmos values to just read the manuals and compare values for each of the setting numbers. A quick look over a few games eg say comparing Gorgar and Firepower shows they are quite different in the game specific ones, say from location #30 onwards.

edit: Thinking about this, unless I'm missing something, I don't get how this can be practical as each cmos setting file must be different for each game as the first setting is the game ID. Isn't it easier to use the clear cmos test then boot to the game to reload defaults for the game you have or use the edit_cmos routine.

#179 3 months ago
Quoted from SYS6:

Another way to check for the same default cmos values to just read the manuals and compare values for each of the setting numbers. A quick look over a few games eg say comparing Gorgar and Firepower shows they are quite different in the game specific ones, say from location #30 onwards.
edit: Thinking about this, unless I'm missing something, I don't get how this can be practical as each cmos setting file must be different for each game as the first setting is the game ID. Isn't it easier to use the clear cmos test then boot to the game to reload defaults for the game you have or use the edit_cmos routine.

Yes, each game would end up storing "who knows what" values in the CMOS so you can't go strictly by the settings in the manuals. Those are limited to what they want you to see and/or modify. So you are right, the sure-fire way to go back to playing a non-gorgar/blackknight game is to use clear_cmos and let the first boot of the Williams ROMs write what it needs to the CMOS and be done with it.

The init_cmos essentially restores the entire contents of the CMOS to what Gorgar or Black Knight would have written on a first boot. What it's handy for (if you happen to have a Gorgar or Black Knight) is that using it instead of clear_cmos allows you to skip the first boot and instantly set your game up with defaults. the init_cmos.txt file shows what defaults are changed from williams defaults.

Really, init_cmos is more of a personal-use kind of ROM for me. It saves a lot of time when I'm modifying and testing a ROM image a few hundred times before releasing it.

The idea of having one for each game out there might prove to be useful for others. Not having to go back and set free-play mode could be every time could be one of them..

1 week later
#180 3 months ago

Repaired one mpu already with this.
Next mpu on the bench is doing this: kinda counting something like 5 4 3 2 9 8 7 6 0 pause and then repeat. the leds do some blink pattern

any ideas?

#181 3 months ago

First of all, that's a nice board you made! Nice and clean..

Secondly, that's extremely weird behaviour! (but you already knew that).

IC34 is responsible for choosing how to arrange the segments given the input from IC33, which then traces back to PIA1. Oddly, it chooses the numbers 'backwards' from the input. Basically:

PIA1 = SEGMENT DISPLAY
-----------------------------
F = 0
E = 1
D = 2
C = 3
B = 4
A = 5
9 = 6
8 = 7
7 = 8
6 = 9

So the test ROM actually counts backwards from F to 6 on PIA1 in order to display 0 to 9. Anything below 6 on PIA1 causes the segment display to show other predefined characters not used by Williams (search for the PDF of IC34 for details). In your case it appears that the mapping in IC34 is not actually backwards like the test ROM expects it to be, which is why it appears to count down instead of up, and also includes the other predefined characters.

Perhaps your board has a different IC34 chip than what I had in my black knight when I wrote that ROM. ie: maybe at some point Williams did a hardware revision change and made up for it in software.. Can you tell me what your IC34 chip is? Mine was a DM7447.

This part of the circuitry on the board has *almost* nothing to do with the rest of the board. The fact that it is counting backwards on the display doesn't worry me too much, but what are the other symptoms of the board?

Try the rest of the ROMs and see what you get.. You may have to pull a good RAM or CMOS chip and run the respective test to prove whether "top led" and "bottom led" are really the top and bottom LEDs (bottom LED is the one that flashes when the chip is pulled, forcing a failed result).

#182 3 months ago

IC34 on this board is 7447APC
I've tried different 2114s and 5101s. The ones on the board test good with my neoloch inquisitor tester. The PIAs also test good.
The other tests don't appear to run correctly either. Random character on the display or both lights or no lights.

#183 3 months ago

This board had a bad address driver (bottom right corner, N8T97N) and apparently there was an issue with the socket. I reflowed the socket and it appears to be working now.
Thank you for providing the test roms.

#184 3 months ago

UPDATE: Tested the data lines on IC26 with both the test rom and in audit mode. Both were fine. Retested the image on IC26 and it tested fine. Said F'it and burned IC26 to another EPROM and it works great now. 10 out of 10 good boots with attract mode. I learned something good today so bonus!

Thanks everyone for your help!

BEFORE EDIT:

I have made a lot of progress. Right now this SYS 7 board will boot about half the time. Sometimes it boots into audits and sometimes into attract. Attract mode is not stable though and will often crash. Board has nvram and I am not worried too much about the audit mode as I am on the bench.

When I am in audit or attract and I press the diag switch I get an error 7 every time. This is an error with IC26. I have run the mem test for IC26 dozens of times and it always passes. I have also tested the rom against the image and it passes. I am wondering about the address decoder at this point

Any thoughts?

#185 3 months ago

2 posts in 1:
1. pincoder thanks for making these ROMs. When you announced them I couldn't understand why anyone would want to burn so many ROMs. Now that I have used them to fix a board set I completely understand. The ability to jump to a specific rom and diagnose a specific issue was perfect!

2. I had a particular problem to solve. I have 3 sys 7 machines, 1 working board set, 3 non-working system 7 sets and a RD mpu327. The RD allowed me to get Barracora up and running but left my time fantasy and my buddies laser cue down until I could get another working set.

Things I learned:
1. Don't even try without a known working driver board
2. ROMs may burn and verify but that's not a guarantee. When in doubt try another. The PC test ROMs were invaluable here
3. Verify the jumpers on the board. 3 system 7 boards, 3 different jumper configs!
4. I'd still like to find a theory of operations for this board. The 1 thing I was certain of on all these boards is they were resetting correctly. It difficult to know what to expect between reset and attract.

Whew that was a lot. I have 2 more boards to fix. I'm going to make some videos of the test ROMs in use to share as thanks.

#186 89 days ago
Quoted from dextrose42:

This board had a bad address driver (bottom right corner, N8T97N) and apparently there was an issue with the socket. I reflowed the socket and it appears to be working now.
Thank you for providing the test roms.

Awesome, nice work! Glad the ROMs were of use to you

#187 89 days ago
Quoted from Cheddar:

2 posts in 1:
1. pincoder thanks for making these ROMs. When you announced them I couldn't understand why anyone would want to burn so many ROMs. Now that I have used them to fix a board set I completely understand. The ability to jump to a specific rom and diagnose a specific issue was perfect!
2. I had a particular problem to solve. I have 3 sys 7 machines, 1 working board set, 3 non-working system 7 sets and a RD mpu327. The RD allowed me to get Barracora up and running but left my time fantasy and my buddies laser cue down until I could get another working set.
Things I learned:
1. Don't even try without a known working driver board
2. ROMs may burn and verify but that's not a guarantee. When in doubt try another. The PC test ROMs were invaluable here
3. Verify the jumpers on the board. 3 system 7 boards, 3 different jumper configs!
4. I'd still like to find a theory of operations for this board. The 1 thing I was certain of on all these boards is they were resetting correctly. It difficult to know what to expect between reset and attract.
Whew that was a lot. I have 2 more boards to fix. I'm going to make some videos of the test ROMs in use to share as thanks.

Thanks for sharing all of your valuable feedback. I'm glad you made good progress too! It's not always easy from here to help troubleshoot so posting your results helps me too.

Can't wait to see the videos you make, that's awesome thank you!

#188 87 days ago

Here is the first set of short videos. I have a couple missing I need to redo and then another half dozen I haven't done because I didn't need those roms for my last board. I'll work on adding those to the playlist as I make them.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLtGB2hX0oWQT_eIL4mvQg1mNrVZWnpJz5

also I have a clamp on camera mount coming that should remove the shakycam

#189 87 days ago
Quoted from Cheddar:

Here is the first set of short videos. I have a couple missing I need to redo and then another half dozen I haven't done because I didn't need those roms for my last board. I'll work on adding those to the playlist as I make them.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLtGB2hX0oWQT_eIL4mvQg1mNrVZWnpJz5
also I have a clamp on camera mount coming that should remove the shakycam

Cool. You're not so Shakey by my standards. When I shoot videos they look like outtakes from Blair Witch!

Thanks for adding them!

1 month later
#190 54 days ago

BETA RELEASE:

I finally got my hands on a working Hyperball set so I'll be working on updating the ROM set to support it over the next while..

I did just put out a new beta version of ROMS available here: http://pincoder.ca/ccn/roms/pincoder_roms_2019.08.28.2031_beta.zip

A few small tweaks, and added a second sounds test. This test doesn't require the use of switches so you can also run it on the bench. Essentially it does the same thing as the first sounds test ROM but sends the sounds out automatically a few moments after boot up.

Cheers!

1 month later
#191 18 days ago

Another Beta release: http://pincoder.ca/ccn/roms/pincoder_roms_2019.10.03.1703_beta.zip

Rewrote the documentation for "01b-bus" adding more about troubleshooting power and the reset circuit. The ROM remains the same.

#192 12 days ago

pincoder The docs on 01b-bus look very clear now. I'm curious about the voltage you say you expect though. I'm seeing ~4.8V on the 5V terminal on my PSU breakout board without it connected to anything. If I measure the voltage against the alligator clips on the IJ2 ground pin and 5v I'm seeing 4.1V. Board seems to boot ok, but I'm wondering where the 0.7V are going. Possible that's just crappy wires, or should I suspect something else?

#193 11 days ago
Quoted from kevinclark:

pincoder The docs on 01b-bus look very clear now. I'm curious about the voltage you say you expect though. I'm seeing ~4.8V on the 5V terminal on my PSU breakout board without it connected to anything. If I measure the voltage against the alligator clips on the IJ2 ground pin and 5v I'm seeing 4.1V. Board seems to boot ok, but I'm wondering where the 0.7V are going. Possible that's just crappy wires, or should I suspect something else?

Is that when the clips are connected to 1J2 or floating? At 4.1v it may boot but once it starts using all of the circuitry on the board that voltage may drop below an acceptable level.

For what it's worth, the values below are from using an actual power supply from a williams pinball machine on the bench (transformer, power supply board, rectifiers, the whole lot).

While floating (1J2 disconnected, 3J6 disconnected) I'm seeing:
5.19 volts across the 5V and GND pins of 3J6

After reconnecting 3J6 I'm seeing:
5.10 volts across the 5V and GND wires on the end of my power supply wires (cable side of 1J2).

While 1J2 and 3J6 are connected, I also see 5.1 volts across each of:
TP9 and TP10 of MPU board
VCC1 and GND1 of IC1
VCC2 and GND2 of IC1

I'd say your wires with the alligator clips are an issue (0.7v drop seems too much). Power supply wires should be of a decent guage. If the wire is too thin it will not be able to carry the required current draw from the circuit boards. This can also cause the board to malfunction.

#194 10 days ago
Quoted from kevinclark:

pincoder The docs on 01b-bus look very clear now. I'm curious about the voltage you say you expect though. I'm seeing ~4.8V on the 5V terminal on my PSU breakout board without it connected to anything. If I measure the voltage against the alligator clips on the IJ2 ground pin and 5v I'm seeing 4.1V. Board seems to boot ok, but I'm wondering where the 0.7V are going. Possible that's just crappy wires, or should I suspect something else?

You shouldn't see a voltage drop of more than 0.01 volts anywhere you look on the 5v rail. Disconnect the alligator clip and see if the drop is on that wire.

#195 10 days ago
Quoted from pincoder:

Is that when the clips are connected to 1J2 or floating? At 4.1v it may boot but once it starts using all of the circuitry on the board that voltage may drop below an acceptable level.

That's when the clips are connected to IJ2.

Quoted from pincoder:

You shouldn't see a voltage drop of more than 0.01 volts anywhere you look on the 5v rail. Disconnect the alligator clip and see if the drop is on that wire.

Will do. Pretty confident it's the wires - they were cheap. I'll solder something heavier onto them.

#196 10 days ago

Definitely the wires. Swapped some better quality clips and I'm now seeing an insignificant drop.

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