New Sterns - Which duds became great

(Topic ID: 210265)

New Sterns - Which duds became great


By sethi_i

1 year ago



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  • 157 posts
  • 74 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 11 months ago by TheLaw
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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    There are 157 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 4.
    #1 1 year ago

    I've been following this sight for about four months (since I got the bug to buy my own pin). I've gone back and read a lot of old threads. From what I've read, it seems that Stern pins often start off with basic code and improve with updates. Some are eventually lauded as great, while others are just hanging on. But all of them seem to have exhibited the same pattern from the reviews.

    How many games have you seen go from bad to good, and how many stay bad? How do you know when Stern calls it quits on the code and a game is finally finished? For example, GotG just got a code update that fixed some serious gameplay flaws, but I wouldn't consider it finished. From posts, it's a toss up as to whether or not it will get another one.

    -19
    #2 1 year ago

    Dud to good/great: IronMan, Batman66, Metallica, Xmen
    Stayed bad: Avengers, Avatar, CSI, 24, Transformers

    Currently bad: Ghostbusters, StarWars, GOTG

    12
    #3 1 year ago

    Star Wars started off decent but now it is really good.

    Code really does wonders for a pinball machine. Who would have thought.

    35
    #4 1 year ago

    Walking Dead. Released as a complete dud in my opinion.
    It’s now my favourite title, thanks to Lyman’s coding.

    18
    #5 1 year ago
    Quoted from GravitaR:

    Dud to good/great: IronMan, Batman66, Metallica, Xmen
    Stayed bad: Avengers, Avatar, CSI, 24, Transformers
    Currently bad: Ghostbusters, StarWars, GOTG

    SW and GB are bad? No way

    #6 1 year ago
    Quoted from Who-Dey:

    SW and GB are bad? No way

    Both released with some of the best, most complete code of the past few years?

    #7 1 year ago

    Would never sell my Walking dead or my Ghostbusters. Absolutely great games.

    #8 1 year ago
    Quoted from GravitaR:

    Dud to good/great: IronMan, Batman66, Metallica, Xmen
    Stayed bad: Avengers, Avatar, CSI, 24, Transformers
    Currently bad: Ghostbusters, StarWars, GOTG

    My friends and I who have owned over 100 games in the last few years, love Avatar. Every time I think I may sell it, I play a few games and realize I can't part with it.

    Its a great 1 ball game and it has short ball times so its fun in a group.

    Its similar to Iron Man.

    #9 1 year ago
    Quoted from Who-Dey:

    SW and GB are bad? No way

    So it sounds like Stern comes thru. It's just a matter of time. Do they announce when something is "done". Or do you just know, when nothing has been released in certain amount of time?

    #10 1 year ago
    Quoted from sethi_i:

    So it sounds like Stern comes thru. It's just a matter of time. Do they announce when something is "done". Or do you just know, when nothing has been released in certain amount of time?

    Im not sure if they ever announce a game being done or not. You will pretty much know when a game isnt going to get anymore updates though, although they occasionally surprise you with an update like TWD and AC/DC just got.

    #11 1 year ago

    I would have a hard time parting with Star Wars, BM66, GB or Avatar.

    And I would never get rid of LotR.

    15
    #12 1 year ago
    Quoted from sethi_i:

    So it sounds like Stern comes thru. It's just a matter of time. Do they announce when something is "done". Or do you just know, when nothing has been released in certain amount of time?

    You buy a game when the code is “good enough” for you, then celebrate every time an update is released, improving it further.
    Otherwise, you’re asking for trouble or don’t mind taking a risk. Maybe it’s a dream theme?
    Third option/scenario: you knowingly buy it early, then post on Pinside for the next 18 months, complaining about code.

    #13 1 year ago

    Everyone has a view of this story.

    To me there are games that got over the initial fantasy much better AND became accepted with code and SM and TWD are the biggest in my view and there are games that got better because people got over their wet dream and LOTR, POTC, IM, and TRON are are few. I know people can argue updates but I think people played them and didn't look at the BOM to decide.

    There are also games like WPT (hardware) and XMEN that are so much better than when released but people are not over their fantasy disappointment. Transformers is here.

    There are games like Avatar and SW that like IM disappointed on playfield stuff that we will see about in the future.

    12
    #14 1 year ago

    At some point people will start to see how great GOTis because of the code/rule set. If you like SW than you should reconsider GOT.

    24
    #15 1 year ago

    Mustang seems to be considered by many on Pinside as a "dud". Which is too bad as the only thing it suffers from is an unpopular theme.

    A great game nonetheless and one of Stern's most fun for those that give it a chance.

    20
    #16 1 year ago

    TWD. Would be a top 10 game if you deleted scores from the first year.

    #17 1 year ago
    Quoted from Rondogg:

    TWD. Would be a top 10 game if you deleted scores from the first year.

    +1. I was disappointed and frustrated playing a Pro game on location when it first launched, with all the sdtm drains from the pops and prison. Then when I went back a year later and got some time in on a Premium, I was hooked. One of the best games of all time, imo.

    -1
    #18 1 year ago

    TWD is pretty much the only game that went from dud to great.
    GOT was pretty bad at the start but code fixed it (still not a great game as it is a wood chopper with a pretty linear strategy to points; some people will claim it is not, but got watch a tourney and 90% of people play it the same exact way)

    Many others are left without final polish, have a layout that just wont ever be great no matter the code fixes (Avengers) or have poor design and are sold on a theme alone so never got the attention of a good layout or something code can fix (StarWars)

    #19 1 year ago

    2nd for Mustang

    #20 1 year ago

    Mustang is a great game. One of my favorite sterns. Great shots and great rules.
    Ghostbusters in the other hand I couldn't get rid of that turd fast enough which is a shame because I love the theme and artwork.

    22
    #21 1 year ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    GOT was pretty bad at the start but code fixed it (still not a great game as it is a wood chopper with a pretty linear strategy to points; some people will claim it is not, but got watch a tourney and 90% of people play it the same exact way)

    I totally disagree with this opinion. GoT’s code has changed very little since launch, just tweaks and bug fixes. It could use an update to finish the code by adding balance to the houses, add call outs and some video clips. But GoT was 90% complete at launch. Calling it a “wood chopper with pretty linear strategy” couldn’t be farther from the truth. This game is closer to a “choose your own adventure” then any other pin.

    Maybe tournament players choose the same path to maximize on points, but the game plays different for each House you choose. Maybe those players haven’t seen chuckwurt videos on gameplay. How many other games have/need 7 hours of instructions to explain all the nuances of them?

    #22 1 year ago
    Quoted from Luckydogg420:

    This game is closer to a “choose your own adventure” then any other pin.

    sorry but when everyone picks the same path, it is a pretty lame adventure.

    Quoted from Luckydogg420:

    It could use an update to finish the code by adding balance to the houses

    this could help to greatly change the wood chopping aspect.

    Quoted from Luckydogg420:

    How many other games have/need 7 hours of instructions to explain all the nuances of them?

    luckily not many... that is part of what makes it a dud of a game to the majority of people.

    #23 1 year ago

    Wow,Mitch,sorry your opinion of GB was negative!! I admit it needs some tweeking to dial it in,and some mods really help,but a turd???Sorry,its one of my vaf.pins! To each his own!!

    #24 1 year ago
    Quoted from Chambahz:

    You buy a game when the code is “good enough” for you, then celebrate every time an update is released, improving it further.

    Exactly what I did before buying my Metallica. Code was acceptable to me after the CIU modes were added. Each update after that was unexpected but greatly appreciated. Thank you Lyman and associates.

    12
    #25 1 year ago

    Metallica, ACDC, BM66, SM, TWD would all be considered duds if they were still running on initial launch code and never updated. Initial reviews were all pretty poor on these games. If you look back on RGP I remember people selling off their Spider-man's in the low 3's because of how disappointing the code was early on. It takes a while for Lyman to work his magic and make these games great!

    #26 1 year ago
    Quoted from MikeS:

    If you look back on RGP I remember people selling off their Spider-man's in the low 3's because of how disappointing the code was early on. It takes a while for Lyman to work his magic and make these games great!

    This. I remember Spidy getting bagged on extensively. Generally, the code will come. Early adopters now know they're getting something that's a work in progress. Don't want to take that risk, then don't buy the game until it's to your liking. And if that time never comes, move along.

    -1
    #27 1 year ago

    I'm sorry, but no. Hell no.

    #28 1 year ago

    I agree that TWD. It seemed no one liked it at first for all kinds of reasons but now it's considered a favorite of many and one of Stern's best. I don't think any other Stern pins had such a turn around. Games like GB, SW, or BW66 have benefited from code but don't think they have changed that many impressions of those games.

    #29 1 year ago

    Metallica and TWD were both Duds as far as Pinside goes. I bought both before the good code dropped, and weird coincidence the good code came out the day after I got them set up.

    #30 1 year ago

    Only GOTG is in the bad state for me at this moment. (And WOF missing the wizard mode).
    Avatar is really good and complete, not superdeep but a good game. Only has one or two small bugs left in the software.

    Stern is doing a good job!

    #31 1 year ago
    Quoted from Rondogg:

    TWD. Would be a top 10 game if you deleted scores from the first year.

    yep

    #32 1 year ago
    Quoted from Chambahz:

    Third option/scenario: you knowingly buy it early, then post on Pinside for the next 18 months, complaining about code.

    That seems to be a really popular option from what I've read...

    #33 1 year ago

    There's only been two modern sterns that have been released that I really haven't liked no matter how much time I've put on them: WWE and Mustang. The rest have been worth putting coins in every time. Even the ones others haven't liked, like Avatar, Avengers and X-Men, have grown on me a lot.

    #34 1 year ago

    Patience is such an incredible virtue in this hobby, and sadly, the vast majority of this community lacks it. I remember playing a TWD on location in Dayton, and I saw how much of the animations were missing (the big code drop of 2015 had just occurred, so I could compare Bowen's tutorial with a game on location that had not received the code update yet), and I tried playing it and couldn't believe how bad it was. I had the luxury of knowing how good the code REALLY was thanks to Bowen's recent tutorial, but if that didn't exist, I would have never looked back. Anyways, I went home and purchased a TWD Pro with the brand new code installed from Stern, and I was blown away - to the point I traded it and got a TWD Prem - $10k in 2 pins in about 2 months.

    Point is: the wait is worth it, and I know I will doing a pin a MASSIVE disservice by judging it on the code it receives with its initial release. Yeah, it's a bummer to have to wait a year+, but man, with life happening all around me and limited funds, it gives me time to get my money ready so when the code is solid and "it's time" - I can purchase my game with the utmost confidence. GOT came out in what, 2015, and I JUST purchased mine. I am 100% happy with my purchase.

    Echoing what others have said: GOT is the sleeper right now. Improve the art (which, FTR, I am just fine, but I recognize that is a big factor on its relative quiet existence), and it would blow up like crazy.

    #35 1 year ago

    Hands down for me Batman 66 was a total dud at release and Many months after that but Now is by far my and my families favor title. A masterpiece with code to match the art in my view.

    #36 1 year ago
    Quoted from GravitaR:

    Dud to good/great: IronMan, Batman66, Metallica, Xmen
    Stayed bad: Avengers, Avatar, CSI, 24, Transformers
    Currently bad: Ghostbusters, StarWars, GOTG

    I know we all have our opinions, but honestly, how can you call GB and SW bad?? I do agree IM, Met, Xmen all got WAY better, and Avengers will forever be a turd IMO, but all 3 of those currently bad listed...i just don't see it.

    #37 1 year ago

    The greatest duds are the ones you eat!

    duds (resized).jpg

    #38 1 year ago

    With the depth of todays games it takes a lot of play to fully understand the games yet many player trash talk after little play then like the game down the road

    #39 1 year ago
    Quoted from Betelgeuse:

    +1. I was disappointed and frustrated playing a Pro game on location when it first launched, with all the sdtm drains from the pops and prison. Then when I went back a year later and got some time in on a Premium, I was hooked. One of the best games of all time, imo.

    Walking dead would be a great game in my den. I like it too. I could be better on it.

    I had a buddy who bought it n I b so I have enjoyed it from the beginning. I enjoyed the game. I also get my ass handed to me on it by everyone. Sometimes I kick thier asses but mostly I get my ass handed to me. Pinball.

    #40 1 year ago
    Quoted from Yelobird:

    Hands down for me Batman 66 was a total dud at release and Many months after that but Now is by far my and my families favor title. A masterpiece with code to match the art in my view.

    Batman 66's code has certainly come a LONG way from initial "dud" status. While its colorful art and your excellent mods add a lot to the game as well, I don't know that it will ever truly reach "great" status for me due to its simplistic (and somewhat clunky) playfield layout.

    #41 1 year ago

    Have not seen anything on Star Trek so I must have made a good purchase. Although I did get mine two years after it was already out! Wonder if they will ever do a surprise update on that title?

    #42 1 year ago
    Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

    Batman 66's code has certainly come a LONG way from initial "dud" status. While its colorful art and your excellent mods add a lot to the game as well, I don't know that it will ever truly reach "great" status for me due to its simplistic (and somewhat clunky) playfield layout.

    I am finding I am more and more an on location player. So 66 is Perfect for me I love the theme, but I don't need to own one. I drop my quarters in it. I'm glad it continues to be improved.

    #43 1 year ago

    I loved TWD from day one because of the Borg layout and theme

    You could see the potential there and Lyman was on code which made it a no brainer

    Fast forward to BM66. Same story

    Easy to see potential

    #44 1 year ago

    Of all the new games that showed up at my place, Batman66 had the most tepid response from visitors initially, because the game was little more than a box of lights. You could play through everything the game had in 1 good ball.

    Now it's amazing and the game I play more than anything.

    I wish it had a better debut, what's done is done. I'm glad to have an LE.

    #45 1 year ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    sorry but when everyone picks the same path, it is a pretty lame adventure.

    That's the thing though. Tournament players only do that as they are choosing a risk vs reward function. House Martel is picked 90% of the time as it limits the chance of a dud game but to really blow that game up you should be playing as Tyrel or Greyjoy. Playing as both of those houses bring in the dud game though but you will see a lot of top players playing these houses in a herb style qualifying situation. Limited entry or brackets they move back to Martel.

    Shoot, each house has some good value based off the rules today:
    - Lannister - Check out the never ending Super Jackpot strategy. After looking at that try to convince anyone that's not a lucrative option to play. May be a bug or it may not be one but it's in the rules today.
    - Tyrel - A decent player has 300 million in their bank easy with this house and playing just the Stark mode. The shot multiplier is huge on this game if manage correctly
    - Stark - Anyone interested in potentially 250 million WIC hurry-ups? Playing as stark takes the base WIC hurry up to 10 million or more not including the PF and shot multipliers. WIC hurry ups are stupid easy to figure out when they start and if you are collecting them with no multipliers then you just aren't playing smart. 60-100 million WIC hurry-up's aren't hard to achieve
    - Baratheon - Wall stack is pretty lucrative but playing this house I focus on spinner strategy.

    Really the Martel add a ball is only super lucrative in HOTK if you progress through the levels of HOTK. It really doesn't tip the scale in Black Water MB unless you just have a junk BWMB without playing as Martel. This game has so much more to offer than most realize.

    You can't judge a game by the tournament play of it. If so, nearly every game would be a dud as most have a boring single strategy to maximize points and limit risk. For example, let's take one of the highest ranked machines of MM. Tournament play is castle all day. Not real fun if you ask me.

    #46 1 year ago
    Quoted from heni1977:

    Have not seen anything on Star Trek so I must have made a good purchase. Although I did get mine two years after it was already out! Wonder if they will ever do a surprise update on that title?

    Star Trek has some pretty good code now especially with the update that preventing time outs of modes and added the trophies. It's got some strategy behind it as well as you can chose to go 3 in a row or 3 deep. If they would have made the 3 deep more than a lock of only 2x I think more people would go for that strategy. As it is today you get 2x on a combo anyways so locking 2x isn't all that lucrative. Not sure if they stack though making a locked in shot now 4x on a combo (maybe an owner can confirm). You also get the strategy or which 3 to complete to get your spinner, pops or ramps as well as the added risk vs reward of doing the double complete to get two special features. Not a super deep game but a fun game.

    #47 1 year ago

    GOTG isn't finished - but BAD no way.

    I think SWLE started of as a dud and has became a Great Game ( No way it leaves my collection )

    GB - Wants to be great and I honestly don't know what's missing for me in this game. I'm probably selling mine soon.

    Aerosmith - Is pretty good but- Where is the code update. There are serious flaws in this game that have really affected
    how I feel about this one. It's good but It could be Great.

    Don't care to much for Batman66.

    #48 1 year ago
    Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

    Mustang seems to be considered by many on Pinside as a "dud". Which is too bad as the only thing it suffers from is an unpopular theme.
    A great game nonetheless and one of Stern's most fun for those that give it a chance.

    Theme ain’t the problem. Game isn’t fun and the playfield is a straight nascar ripoff. Had stern put effort into the way bally did corvette it could have been amazing

    #49 1 year ago
    Quoted from Who-Dey:

    SW and GB are bad? No way

    grrrrrrr.... I sold my GB not long after I got it, one of the first games I ever sold. Tried very hard to love that machine, but she had to go.

    Now, my SW I have a feeling is not far behind... Just don't like the multiplier X type games...

    now I LOVE my TWD, IM and MET ...

    #50 1 year ago

    So, it sounds as if games like TWD, BM66 and MET got the most improvements after initial release. Do good initial sales lead to putting additional resources into them? Or is it the opposite, a poor selling game needs to be improved to boost sales? But from what I see, there's no such thing as a poor initial selling game (unless it's some fringe one-off creation).

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