I just bought a new ROM at Pinballcenter. Installed, switched the machine on, I can hear the start sound but both pf and display stays off.
Tried putting back the original ROM, all is fine.
Tried again with new one, no luck.
What to do? Is the new ROM not working for sure?
Yes, I looked at the label. It didnt work. Then i tried the other way around, with the notch on the right. Too late.
Quoted from Luppin:My mistake. But thanks to the producer for:
-labelling upsidedown
-no instructions
All rom chips don't go in the same direction so it's not up to the "producer" to track down every game and make sure the rom has a label specificly oriented to a specific game.
It's fairly common knowledge that you don't put chips in backwards. These things should be replace by people that know what they're doing. It is also common knowledge that you use the notch on the chip to determine chip orientation.
These chips are not sold as end user upgrade kits. They're sold by pinball parts distributors to techs along with other parts that don't come with instructions (like coils, switches, flipper rebuild kits). The blame here is on you. Own your mistakes and learn. Don't blame others.
The cost of rom upgrades is low. You're not out much money. A lesson well learned.
Quoted from Luppin:But thanks to the producer for:-labeling upsidedown
The producer has never seen the game.
They don't know the orientation of the board it goes in.
Let alone when people turn soundboards sideways and remount them.
Producers just burn the ROMs and then put a sticker over the window so it does not get accidentally erased.
Any IC chip you ever get your hands on - remember to mind the notch.
Yes, true. I am into pinball for couple years, not an expert at all but nit a newbie too. I already repaired quite a few things, bought parts and replaced, sometimes requiring to study quite a bit of stuff!
I dont agree that ROMs and other parts are supposed to be sold by distributors to techs only. Ot it depends what you mean with techs. If I had to call a tech to replace a ROM, I would really leave the hobby immediately: it would become terribly expensive. These machines often have little problems and its part of the hobby, even as a pure player, to learn at least some basic stuff to maintain the machines and fix the most common issues. In this case I was superficial and on a rush... just a quick check online (as I did afterwards) to properly install the ROM: super easy.
So in the end: lesson learned, never rush even for (what looks like) the most simple and obvious things.
Now I will have to buy it again, and I would like the official release with the WMS logo. Who is selling them (in Europe)? The dead one was from Pinballcenter, but a bootleg (label hand written).
Bummer that happened, but look at it as a paid lesson. Relatively inexpensive compared to any course you would take at a college/university on electronics.
Quoted from Luppin:Yes, true. I am into pinball for couple years, not an expert at all but nit a newbie too. I already repaired quite a few things, bought parts and replaced, sometimes requiring to study quite a bit of stuff!
I dont agree that ROMs and other parts are supposed to be sold by distributors to techs only. Ot it depends what you mean with techs. If I had to call a tech to replace a ROM, I would really leave the hobby immediately: it would become terribly expensive. These machines often have little problems and its part of the hobby, even as a pure player, to learn at least some basic stuff to maintain the machines and fix the most common issues. In this case I was superficial and on a rush... just a quick check online (as I did afterwards) to properly install the ROM: super easy.
So in the end: lesson learned, never rush even for (what looks like) the most simple and obvious things.
Now I will have to buy it again, and I would like the official release with the WMS logo. Who is selling them (in Europe)? The dead one was from Pinballcenter, but a bootleg (label hand written).
There are no official rom releases. Pinball center, like other vendors, buys the rights to sell the rom from pps and programs the rom per order. All official Roms have a home made label. There probably aren't any new old stock chips with Williams labels anymore. Williams is out of business.
Parts are sold to techs only. By being a DIY repairman, you assume the roles and responsibilities of the tech. Again, they are parts sold without instructions. All the parts from pinball center are this way unless you buy a specific mod "kit". You've been doing repairs for 2 years you say? How many coils and switches have you bought and replaced? How many of those came with instructions? How many coils come with a warning about wiring your coil backwards? A rom chip is no different.
Learn to own your mistakes. I hate it when people try to blame others for their mistakes.
Yes, I replaced coils and many switches, diodes. No instructions, I checked online. I have been very careful.
Its my mistake here, as I wrote above. In this case it looked so easy (I read something about replacing roms long ago) and I did not pay the necessary attention. I thought that a couple lines of instructions would have been beneficial. But I was not blaming others, just myself.
Anyway, lesson learned. I apologize with the producers of electronics of the world and with all savvy tech people here.
Quoted from vid1900:Look on the bright side, many IC chips blow up and fry other components when installed backwards.
ROMs just quietly die by themselves!
Quoted from vid1900:Look on the bright side, many IC chips blow up and fry other components when installed backwards.
ROMs just quietly die by themselves!
Yes, I was lucky, could have been much worse!
Seems to me it would be prudent to include a note about the notch when selling ROMS, as it would benefit both the buyer if they were not familiar with the issue, and the seller who might otherwise have to deal with dead returns from those buyers who don't realize (or admit!) they put it in wrong.
Especially when one considers that it is such a common mistake to presume the label will line up with the other ROMs on the board. No such issue with coils, switches, etc.
Quoted from markmon:Parts are sold to techs only.
I've never been asked to document my tech status when buying parts. 
Quoted from markmon:dong repairs
Uhhhhhh huh huh huh huh.
Quoted from DanQverymuch:Seems to me it would be prudent to include a note about the notch when selling ROMS, as it would benefit both the buyer if they were not familiar with the issue, and the seller who might otherwise have to deal with dead returns from those buyers who don't realize (or admit!) they put it in wrong.
Especially when one considers that it is such a common mistake to presume the label will line up with the other ROMs on the board. No such issue with coils, switches, etc.I've never been asked to document my tech status when buying parts.
Uhhhhhh huh huh huh huh.
Parts are sold to techs. There's no documentation required. Why would there be? Most paid techs don't have documentation of that sort. Anyone buying a raw part and intending on putting it in himself is taking on the role of the tech.
As for coils not needing any sort of documentation warnings but Roms do? That's absurd. More people mess up their boards by putting on coils and wiring them backwards than people causing damage inserting Roms backwards. And the result of miswiring a coil is a fried transistor. So this doesn't warrant a warning but a Rom does? Ridiculous. People taking on the role of a tech need to be thankful they can get the parts they need at all and from there need to make sure they install them correctly. Just because a company sells tech parts to anyone does not make them responsible for baby stepping the customer on how to use these parts.
Huh? Parts are sold to whoever orders them. Are you really so obtuse as to think I was serious about parts sellers asking for tech credentials?
What note could they include with a coil? "Make sure you install it right"?
My point is valid, it would behoove the buyer and seller to point out the notch issue when selling programmed, labeled ROMs. Some sellers do just that. You are the one being absurd and ridiculous. Learn to own your mistakes.
Quoted from DanQverymuch:What note could they include with a coil? "Make sure you install it right"?
The same note you're asking for. It's no different as the diode orientation may go either direction and putting the wires on in the same order may then blow the transistor. Obviously you're too naive to know this. The warning would be "Wiring this coil backwards may blow your transistor. Orient wires according to the diode band not the prong positions".
Of course, I do not think this warning is required at all since the onus is on the individual doing the repair / install not the part distributor.
Quoted from DanQverymuch:My point is valid, it would behoove the buyer and seller to point out the notch issue when selling programmed, labeled ROMs. Some sellers do just that.
No your point is not valid since you single out ROMs from other similar parts like diode protected coils. On a ROM the issue is the notch might not match the orientation of the ROM sticker from the original ROM yet you think that needs a warning. On a coil, the diode band may not match the orientation of the coil lugs from the original coil. You can't conceive of any reasonable warning there. You're inconsistent and just want to argue. Therefore you do not have a valid point.
Quoted from DanQverymuch:You are the one being absurd and ridiculous. Learn to own your mistakes.
Thanks for trying to be clever by using my words back at me. Unfortunately, you look foolish doing so here where you were wrong. I don't have any mistakes to own here. My coils are wired correctly and my ROMs are installed and working correctly. I'm not crying that parts distributors need to baby step me through installs with a slew of warnings - like you are.
The orientation notch on a chip has been an industry standard for decades. IMO, It is (or should be) common knowledge to anyone who plans to install a chip. If you don't know something that basic, you shouldn't be doing such a "difficult" task.
Quoted from SealClubber:The orientation notch on a chip has been an industry standard for decades.
LTG : )
Nothing to do with IC orientation but that board you posted a pic of LTG, I have a question.
Is it finished?
I am just asking because it seems that a most of the components don't have much/any solder that has penetrated the through hole and made it to the component side of the board.
I realize they would still probably have continuity because the track is connected to the through hole but I always assumed you were meant to get some penetration.
I am not trying to be funny or smart or anything, just curious as I do a fair bit of solder work and I was always taught to penetrate, heat up the component and pad and wait for the 'puddle to sink' then your good.
Matt.
Quoted from fattmatt1972:Is it finished?
No idea. I just grabbed a picture to show IC notch and notch mark on the board.
LTG : )
I've got you all beat. Early in my pinball career, I bought an early release JM. The game ROM and sound ROMs were like version .6 or something. I had a ROM burner. I downloaded the latest game ROM and put it in. Everything worked fine, except that every time you turned on the game, it would complain about the sound ROMs being wrong or something like that, and you had to open the coin door and push the menu buttons. At that time, the sound ROMs were not available for download. I talked to the distributor and found out the only way to get them was to buy them from B/W at a cost of, get this, $600!!! So, I sucked it up and bought them. On the day they arrived, I was really, really sick. I thought I'll just pop them in real quick. I knew about the notch. I just had total brain fade. Yep, I popped them in...... backwards. Now as well as being physically sick, I was mentally shot, knowing I had just burned up $600 worth of chips. I called the distributor, heartbroken that it was gonna cost me ANOTHER $600. They said, "Don't worry about it. We'll take care of you." I'm pretty sure they downloaded my $600 chips to their library before they shipped them to me. I will never forget that and since then, I have always been REALLY, REALLY careful when installing ICs.
Quoted from G-P-E:You haven't lived until you turn your EPROM into a flash light. Quite impressive as to how much light they can produce...briefly.
I've seen it through the label but never directly.
Here is video of a backwards burn up from Andrew on Sys3-7:
I am not a tech at all, just a pinball collector and player, and I have to take care of my machines and various issues that arise.
From my perspective, if I buy a coil and I have to install it, it' something not familiar, not obvious at all. I have no other choice than studying the subject online, read stuff, watch videos, then carefully do it. It is something I would never think about experimenting with!
With a ROM, it looks (but it's not, as I've learned) pretty straightforward, so a couple of line of instructions would have avoided the mistake. Again, my fault because in the first place is my responsibility to check in advance. But considering this specific part and trickiness of the potential upside down placement, I think it would help many collector (not tech), like me, "taking on the role of the tech".
Quoted from markmon:The same note you're asking for. It's no different as the diode orientation may go either direction and putting the wires on in the same order may then blow the transistor. Obviously you're too naive to know this. The warning would be "Wiring this coil backwards may blow your transistor. Orient wires according to the diode band not the prong positions".
Of course, I do not think this warning is required at all since the onus is on the individual doing the repair / install not the part distributor.No your point is not valid since you single out ROMs from other similar parts like diode protected coils. On a ROM the issue is the notch might not match the orientation of the ROM sticker from the original ROM yet you think that needs a warning. On a coil, the diode band may not match the orientation of the coil lugs from the original coil. You can't conceive of any reasonable warning there. You're inconsistent and just want to argue. Therefore you do not have a valid point.
Thanks for trying to be clever by using my words back at me. Unfortunately, you look foolish doing so here where you were wrong. I don't have any mistakes to own here. My coils are wired correctly and my ROMs are installed and working correctly. I'm not crying that parts distributors need to baby step me through installs with a slew of warnings - like you are.
You are the one simply being argumentative. I never said the parts suppliers should include notes with every part, that was all you.
ROMs are a special case. The seller slaps a label on that may not line up with the existing ones.
In this single case, a note explaining the issue and pointing out the notch would potentially help out the buyer AND THE SELLER by avoiding a common problem. ROM updates are one of the few techy things a non-tech might attempt.
Must be sad in your world, where no one gets any slack and no one ever helps anyone out. Now kindly FO.
These days everyone expects someone to hold their hand through life. Warnings are required everywhere to eliminate the posibility of a lawsuit. Don't use the hair dryer while taking a bath. Caution, coffee is hot. Don't stick your dick in the light socket for sexual gratification. When you create a situation that has financial consequences, own up to it and realize that it's a learning experience. The more it costs you, the... Oh never mind. On your 18th birthday, make a deposit in 2 different sperm banks and get a vasectomy.
I thought pinball helped people relaxing from the stress of life, but I see it's not the case here.
I strongly believe you have to take your own responsibilities in whatever you do, I do not expect anyone helping me in life and I do not ask that. But I see people here inferred in different ways, blaming the modern world, how superficial people are these days, etc etc. I see people saying that all the time: the difference is about the field of knowledge. Pinball experts blame newbies, long time fashionistas blame new generations wannabe stylish with no tastes, long time sport fan blame new fans without deep understanding of the sport, etc etc etc etc.. With internet we all can start to learn many new things, and start learning faster than before. The mistake is both of the beginner believing to have good knowledge after some reading online, but also of the expert blaming everybody else with less than 10 years experience in the field. Actually, the true expert in any field usually has a low, simple, humble profile, and is just encouraging newcomers to improve. I love pinball, but for me it's just a hobby, I do it for fun, it's not one of the main goal in life. My best energies are kept for more important things in life. Still, when I have to fix something in a pinball, I tend to be very careful and try to get well documented in advance. But as DanQverymuch said, swapping a ROM did not look like (especially to a non tech person without experience) an impressive task. I did not want to spend the whole evening looking online how to do it, as it seemed very straightforward (yes, now I know with a 30 secs read I would have known about the notch, but before doing it I had no idea, and I just did it).
In the end I think the main point is about the distinction between the techs (to whom producers USED TO solely sell things in the past), and the new hobbysts - people like me new to the pinball world missing the "common knowledge". Would you like pinball to still be around for the next decades to come? I think it then would be smart (although not necessary) to include a couple of lines of instructions in cases like this.. If pinheads has to be only super techy people (much respect, but the way!), it's going to be hard in the future I guess for the hobby. New generations are entering the hobby, people that maybe usually just played pinball on the iphone.. ...making life a little easier (if and when possible!) for this people it's a smart move in my opinion - also business-wise - for companies selling pinball stuff!
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Sana'a
Hillsboro, OR
Truganina
