Due to the immense size of the previous thread that was started earlier this year, I'm going to attempt to condense all the relevant info into a more concise post.

First off, there was a brand new video posted to the website (www.skitbpinball.com) tonight that shows off some of the fancier features of how the game works both in the gameplay and behind the scenes. I hope you guys enjoy it, just keep in mind that it is a bit lengthy (closing in on 20 minutes, total) and there are some quotes in the sound clips that are slightly NSFW that can be heard in the video.

Game information: 100% custom game based on the P-ROC hardware available at www.pinballcontrollers.com. Game is officially licensed to carry the Predator brand and has a giant list of sound and voice clips cut from the movie itself. There is a vulgarity switch in the settings menu to turn off all swearing, if you have a family-friendly game room and aim to keep it that way.

Industry information: There will be no more than 250 machines produced, to which all pre-orders have been filled. We will keep a running waiting list for those interesting in the case of someone backing out of their order for whatever reason. Marco Specialties has signed on to provide all the parts for the game, Matt Reisterer from BackAlleyCreations will be making the playfield toys, and CoinTaker Amusements will be providing all the lighting for the machine. Pinball Inc. will be custom producing the ramps for the machine, and it will come stock with an all new sound system provided by Flipper Fidelity.

We are bringing the game to the Chicago Pinball Expo this month, as well, so if you're in the area or on the fence about going, just come see us and have a blast at one of the best pinball shows in the country.

Production information: We expect the start producing our first handful of machines within the next month or two, meaning we SHOULD have a few people out there with Predators under their (gigantic) Christmas trees. Price range still hasn't moved from the projected $5000 range, either, and I will certainly let everyone know immediately if that has to change for some reason.

If there is any info you feel should be added to this initial post, either PM me or just sound off below.

Production information added to first post.

Thanks to all who have donated already! We might have to throw a little something special in for you guys when your games are done

After the Killing Spree animation is shown, I say that that is the new direction the animations will be taking, and for everyone who has ever called us out for using Comic Sans, yes, it was just a development phase, and we're getting past it. So, in short, yes, we are definitely going to change that crap.

Yes, but I can't think of the guy's name at the moment. I'll add it to the initial post in a bit.

There was a Blain animation, maybe it was obscured in the video. There is no Dutch animation (or Anna, for that matter), but it is not because of license issues. Think about it a little bit

This is definitely our number one question. We have brought on another Artist to help move this along as quickly as possible without losing quality. As soon as we have something to show, we will definitely be showing it.

Yes, it's a lot hard to see. It's the old test animation for the CoinTaker lighting logo, which will be changed this week anyways.

What is this, I don't even...

Winner Winner Chicken Dinner (Aaron made me put that...)

This is all I will say to people who know anything at all about the Detroit Lions:

Get ahold of me directly to make sure you get on the list.

How very attentive. We had actually forgotten about this until you just pointed it out, but early in development those lamps were in a different order. They were switched up in the hardware but I guess we never got around to switching them over in the software.

I really doubt this would ever come up, but as you can tell from the video, the scores can become pretty tight. Hopefully in scores in those high amounts, those would be on the leaderboard, as well. More site testing should show if this becomes an issue or not.

It's to simulate the feeling of getting lost in the jungle for a few seconds, and to also limit the physical area in which the ball can get "trapped" in the pops area. If it was open at the top, you could imagine the ball would roll down, tag a single pop and jump up, then float again and again. Not very exciting.

This is something that I have an extremely hard time talking about, just because I have to watch what I say about it. It would be irresponsible if I were to just go and tell people that they can mess around with the code that controls extremely high voltages that are not only dangerous to people who are near it, but can certainly blow up their circuit boards and even start fires as well if an integer is entered in the wrong place or order or some other little thing. Then again, I would be lying if I said it couldn't be done. Does this help you guys out without making me outright say anything concrete?

Cabinets are being made by a local builder here in Mid-Michigan who is more than capable and has been woodworking for decades.

Assembly will be overseen by yours truly and Aaron ourselves, along with a couple other people we have in mind for the assembly process. Testing is the fun part, so we won't miss out on that, either

Lastly, there are a number of potential hardware choices for the computer that will control the unit, but I can tell you that whatever it is will be confined within the machine itself and you won't notice it is PC controlled when you power it on or play it.

I'm never like "on top" of my emails as well as I should be, but I KNOW I've gone through my emails since August. Tomorrow is email day, so if I don't get back to you before like 8PM (EST) email me again. My junk filter is pretty aggressive sometimes, and I fear it has been lost.

In the newest (final?) whitewood, this is exactly what we've done. Many of the shots and angles have been pushed back a bit to make them all a bit more accessible. I don't want to get too far ahead of myself, but seriously, the new playfield should play butter-smooth.

The short answer for this is yes. Predator can use a plasma DMD with no software modification, you would just need to add in your own display driver board to power it.

What do you want to know about it? It's an Electro-Mechanical / PC (not P-Roc) hybrid with an LCD that runs a pretty simple flash program to keep score, show animations and play sounds. I guess I should mention it is a retheme of a Williams Valiant (1962, I think), as well. It's all done, it just needs to be put back together once we have get the playfield printed. We'll probably make a casual thread about it in a little while when it's all done and running, it's a pretty neat little deal.

I will be going through all of my PM's tomorrow during my email-responding marathon.

Of course Mr68 is down for #68 Can't wait to see ya again in Chicago, and you'll be happy to hear that when the glass isn't off the game for testing (or cheating) purposes, it always sports our Wrong Crowd glare shield

You guys are all sincerely awesome. We can't express enough gratitude for all of your generosity, but we can tell you that because of all of the donations we've gotten, we shouldn't have any problems getting the new beta machine built with all the new hardware it needs to look and play like a completed machine. At this point, we would carry the game on our backs all the way to Illinois if we had to!

Anywhere near Jacksonville should score some coverage from Cody at the 904 Pinball 'Zine

Expect a lot of these posts, as I just finished all of my emails and PM's. If you didn't hear back from me and you had sent me a message, please PM me or email again in case something got lost. My, oh, my, how the emails just keep coming

First time I saw a TZ it was in Milwaukee, WI at the world tournament, and I had to compete on it. That wasn't fair...

This +1

That's what we're shooting for

Confirmed and added to first post. There is a switch in the settings to turn off all vulgarity.

No question, coolest seven year old son ever.

I sincerely doubt you will be disappointed

Yep. CoinTaker amusements is considering making a special lighting unit for the game to get better coverage of the UV across the field. We'll know more after we meet up in Chicago.

There will be updates to the website (and of course here) when we get the artwork to a point it can be shown as a whole playfield piece. It would be kind of a pain to change at that point, but if for some reason it is overwhelmingly disliked, it might have to be. That's about all I can say for now. From what I've seen so far, though, I can't really see anyone being disappointed with it.

The one we've been using is a PinLED display, but we're looking into the Vishay models right now, as well. It all comes down to the best display we can get without having to add a mint in parts to each game and messing with more voltages (no stock plasma displays for this one).

Tommy Boy would be a sweet custom pin! Get on it, IceMan, I'll buy one

We just got the design back from the printing company yesterday, and we should be sporting the shirts ourselves while at our booth in Chicago. We won't have any to sell on the show floor, but you'll be able to order one from us if you like them.

No shaker motor stock, but it will be coded for it with a connector in the harness that leads down to the front corner of the cab if you wanted to hook one up to it.

Honestly, I never understood it, either. It was pretty sweet in Jurassic Park back in the day, but anything past that I don't really get.

Wow, has this thing generated a lot of fuss... We love it here, especially when the wife's friends try out the game and get legitimately offended by it. I haven't talked about it here yet, but it is one of a few Easter Eggs we put in there, so it only happens under a certain drain circumstance. If you do happen to get the call-out, remember to hit both flipper buttons right away to hear the second part, "It's cuzza the echo..." Another one you can spot in the video is while Tracking mode is starting up, Billy says, "The only way outta here is that valley that leads to the east..." Hitting both flippers immediately after that will add the second part of it, "...and I wouldn't wish that on a broke-d*ck-dog." There are a few more, but they are too offensive to post up here, and I want to leave a few for others to find on their own.

This should be a blast. Everyone within reasonable distance of this show should really try to come out. More than just pinball going on! Check into it a bit more at http://www.detroitfanfare.com/

We're tossing the idea around now to see if it will be possible to make it to SPF. It's all going to depend on the resources we have left after Chicago Expo and the FanFare show.

The games are being built in the order in which they were ordered. The production number requests was just a way that people could get a specific number if they wanted one. Has honestly caused a lot of issues on our end, but I think it's cool anyways

After a lot of debate here at the shop, we won't be leaving blank spots in the production run. We will maintain a waitlist until all of the games are eaten up.

There it is

Yeah, these guys have pretty much everything. I'm looking forward to one of those mechanics' shirts and a hoodie.

Probably. We'll have everybody's contact info to let them know ahead of time, so it wouldn't be logistically difficult. To me it reeks of marketing, but if you guys are ok with it, then I will be as well.

Further than I like to let on. Now that the operating system is developed and we have the industry contacts we need to physically make these things happen, the next game won't take a nasty 3 years to get off the ground.

I might be showing some green on this, but I am lost on what DD is...

I'll be getting to emails in a day or two. No worries, bud.

Oh, please, no more children. There are too many here, already!

HAH! "Developed!" I get it now heheh.

We love you too

That's ok, I love insanity. You get used to it after a while.

I'm sure that won't be a problem.

We will send out a mass email when the orders are closed, and that information will be in there.

First batch of shirts came in today, check 'em out.

FBShirt.jpg

Maybe. As many of you have said, most of our interest comes from the internet, most of which is right here on PinSide (thanks, guys). In my experience, people at shows are either just there to play games and hang out, or are looking to pick up a game and bring it home that day. Not too many people like to sign up for something like this in passing, leaving only the really hardcore pin players or Predator fans grabbing a spot.

That being said, a quick check of the numbers shows that we have less than 30 spots left on the list, and the Chicago Expo is a whole different kind of animal when compared to Michigan and Allentown, so they could be all gone day one for all we know...

Would be pretty nice

Yes, I did say that. I've still never seen an Alien(s) movie (does Prometheus count?) besides the AVP stuff, so even if we did decide to go for it I don't think we could do it justice.

Me too, but out of all the bad ideas we've had, The Neverending Story was the most fun to entertain. Falcor ramps that drop balls in a garbage dumpster? That would be pretty sweet

This post will have me humming the "Now You're A Man" theme song all weekend. Orgazmo is one of my all-time favorite movies, but seriously, it's not exactly the most well-known of licenses out there. I could think of SO many voice call-outs you could use for that game, though... How about an "A$$-F*ck Twins" two-ball? "Stunt-c*ck" add-a-ball? That's just the tip of that iceberg!

So, this might be a fun little tidbit to drop down here for those of you who couldn't make it out to the Chicago Expo this weekend...

EDITED OUT

_{Post edited by SkitBPinball : Change of plans}

Edited previous post. You'll find out why within the next few hours

If anyone would like to order the shirts we are wearing at the Chicago Expo you can head over to our website @ skitbpinball.com and hit the donate button. Donate $25 and include your name and shipping address. Make sure to include what size you would like in the comments.

Shirt.jpg

He's on his way. So is Poncho

We're going to post some seminar footage as soon as we find the time. We're also gonna grab some expo show floor footage after they dim the lights and the hall gets nice and crowded

We just posted some pics and some videos of some folks playing the Predator at the Chicago Expo on our Facebook. We'll have them up here soon.

You're right, it is time to close it out. All 250 pre-orders have been filled as of this morning. We will still keep a running waitlist as we move on, as we've all speculated people will be dropping out as commitments become necessary. Thanks to everyone involved for making this project such a success, even in its infancy! Now time to go update the first post.

We totally understand all that. It also should be noted that we never paid to advertise in any way

That really puts a lot into perspective, doesn't it? We, as people, won't be seeing much of that, but all of the companies and manufacturers of our parts will get a nice boost and yes, it should take care of us enough to get us to pin number two. Whatever that may be

We're on it!

We're certainly going to be keeping up on the updates. We had a lot of fun making the last one and people seemed to like it, so we're going to kinda continue down that route.

Wow, it looks like I woke up to a flame war... I'm not going to get into every aspect of this, but, in light of being a professional, there are some very important things I need to clear up before this gets any further:

First and foremost, we would never "slam" a supplier. Not privately nor publicly. If a supplier were to screw up bad enough to need to be "slammed," we would just lose the supplier and find a new one. This is certainly not the case here.

On the subject of James, we already know James is a great, no, INTEGRAL part of the industry (for the few of us that are unfamiliar with his work, check it out at www.pinballinc.com). We had told many people who asked about the black ramps that we would have liked to have clear, but the LOCAL plastics company who formed our ramps (we are in Michigan, James is in Georgia, hint hint) doesn't keep clear plastic on-hand, and our supplier couldn't get us the media in time. As in, the supplier of clear plastic media couldn't get it to us in time. We (stupidly) assumed that people who are this deep into the hobby would know that James, of a company called Pinball, Inc, who focuses on making clear ramps for a living, would probably have clear plastic on-hand, not to mention that we were promoting the company, Vantage Plastics, who made our prototype ramps, for helping us out on such short notice, whom James obviously doesn't work for. As a matter of fact, only one person asked me about James all weekend. When asked if he was still on board with the project (this was after we talked about why the ramps were black, and who made them, etc), all I said was that James requires perfect dimensions of the ramps in 3D space to get the best product possible, so we had to do these first to make sure they were PERFECT before being passed to him for production. Damn good policy, if you ask me.

As far as not liking the game, comparing our lane-blocking issue with Stern, comparing us to JJP for incomplete games at a show, whatever, let me be professional yet again and remind you that without Stern there would be NO pinball, and without JJP it wouldn't be evolving at such an alarming rate. As far as telling us we shouldn't have come out of our garage and that we are unprofessional... I could give a shit less what you think of my game. If you don't like it, don't buy one. Then again, you couldn't right now if you wanted to, because so many others do like it.

We're going to try to do more regular update videos. There won't be much developmentally to show off as we move forward, since most of the major stuff has already been seen/announced. We do have an idea of how we are going to do the videos from now on, and I think you guys will really like it. We're looking at something of a "players' guide" for the game, one video at a time, to explain the rules as best as we can so people can understand how the game works on all levels. What do you guys think?

An updated playfield map is a good idea. We'll probably get something like that up in a few days.

We're also going to create a email mailing list for everyone on the pre-order to formally show production numbers and let everyone know directly when an update is made or posted.

Predator will be route ready out-of-the-box here in the states. I don't know if you'll need a new coin door or just new coin mechs for UK currency, but I couldn't imagine it would be difficult to do. Of all the pre-orders we have, you would only be the second person that has mentioned routing/siting a Predator. I'll be very interested to see how it does in the wild

On the off-subject of routing pins, I've found that almost 100% of the time, older stuff beats newer stuff hands-down. I've had multiple locations where a Taxi sitting next to a Addams Family pulled in nearly twice as much regularly, and one of the best location pieces I've had was an old Police Force. Another big shock was Gottlieb's Mario Bros (set at one coin per play) at your average laundromat. Never underestimate a child-friendly theme in a place where annoyed parents have a pocket full of quarters to throw at their kids to get them to leave them alone for ten minutes.

Single board computer with SD storage (no hard drive). Anything with moving parts is bad in the computer-world, if you ask me.

Yeah, we're not gonna hit Christmas, that's pretty obvious now. It gave us something to shoot for, but we need time for the artists--for both playfield and toys--to get it done right.

We were joking the other night about putting out a poll to decide our next license. I think the Big Lebowski would overtake Pulp Fiction by a lot, though

This is confidential information. We told you not to tell anybody!

I vote no on anything that makes us do more work

I never really "got" the whole Elvira thing...

I'll have to ask the audio guy what all of the sample rates are, but they sound fine to me (but I'm admittedly not much of an audio person). The speaker systems we have are pretty awesome, though, I know that.

I'll be getting to these shortly.

A Jeez-it?

Would really tie the game together.

Next round: Kenny Rogers.

All I could think of when I saw this picture was, "8 year-olds, Dude..."

This.

This sounds a bit scandalous, doesn't it?

Was that the one with Thomas Jane? That's the good one, in my mind.

It would be difficult but not necessarily impossible. Send me some info on the show, plz

That depends on what you're doing with your pin. If you plan on running PinMame to keep your stock rules available, then you're going to need a fairly strong PC to drive it. If you're planning on simply running your own software all the time, it doesn't take much to run a P-ROC at all. For something off-the-shelf, you can use a BeagleBoard. From the talks I've had with a few P-Roc'ers, the Raspberry Pi doesn't quite make the cut, though, unfortunately.

Yeah. The one we're leaning towards right now is honestly way overpowered for a pinball environment, but it is really affordable and easy to work with.

You guys have made it pretty apparent that I need to watch more movies...

And on the subject of the Punisher, anyone who hasn't seen the video "Dirty Laundry" should definitely check it out. Nasty and violent, so kinda NSFW, but this is exactly what I think of when I think of the Punisher.

I'll just leave this here...

DSC06642.JPG

As our waitlist continues to fill up, we are starting to see the need to request a small holding deposit. Production will be starting once the artwork/toys are finished/approved and our testing here is done, so we are certainly going to need to know who is for real on this project to move forward. As we've all speculated, I'm sure a decent handful of people will be bailing on the project once any sort of money is involved, which would make room for the latecomers who are being added to the waitlist. PLEASE do not send us anything right now, as we are still working out all of the finer points of this idea, but just to keep everyone up to date, I think it's a good thing to share something like this as early as possible. As I said earlier, the deposit value will be very small in comparison to the final cost of the game. We are currently leaning towards somewhere in the 5% range, of which will obviously go towards the game in the end.

Please let us know what you all honestly think.

This is a definite. We are just waiting on one or two more people to get back to me with a touch of updated information for the mailing list to be complete and ready to go.

This is something to be aware of, for sure. It's been nice hanging out on here just sharing my thoughts openly about optimal deadlines and price points and such, but now we are working on something a little more concrete. Price point has not changed, and production is still in line for the very near future; I can tell you all that as friends/fellow pinheads, but we are aware that we need some concrete numbers and we're working towards them everyday.

That wouldn't be reading TOO much into it...

That's a little closer to 20%, but I love the enthusiasm. The extra would be in gratitude to Aaron for giving up his number, right?

On a more serious note, I am elated to see overall positive reactions to this idea. I wasn't sure how you guys would react to the idea while we were discussing it, and you've all taken quite a weight off of me/us. We have the best community, don't you agree?

This information will be included in the first email that goes out to the "pre-owners." We will most likely have a monthly update email that goes out to let everyone know how production is moving along so they can get a good grasp on when their turn is coming up. Not to mention fun stuff like release parties and such

This is going to be a tough ship to sink. All manufacturers in the industry honestly have a tough road ahead of them, and we are certainly no exception. To address your post directly, non-buyers who think we can't do it will hopefully get a chance to play a complete Predator someday. What they take away from the experience is theirs and theirs alone, but at least they will see that it was done and done as it was intended to be.

We have a couple of contracts in the works to keep shipping costs as low as possible, and we are certainly willing to help in any way we can, but at the end of the day shipping cost simply has to be up to the buyer. In the US it shouldn't be too bad--usually a couple hundred bucks--especially if you're close to the eastern US region. We have our pre-order list grouped by country so all the folks from a certain country can get together to drive down shipping costs; perhaps that might be an idea for different regions of the US, as well?

We are on board for any/all of these options

I'm sure we will know one soon enough. Overseas stuff might have to be handled by a different shipper, but we will get it all figured out.

That's why we've tried to take the game out to as many shows as possible. It's a weird situation, though. Orders come in much faster than shows we can make it to, so there's a bit of pressure there...

Shooting for a comic-book style with the characters, and so far they're looking exactly how they were envisioned. Take a close look at Hawkins in the art. In the show he spends most of his time playing the role of a bit of a doofus, but he's still a hardened, special-ops soldier and the art reflects that perfectly.

Art updates are coming in on a weekly basis at least. As much as we all want to see the finished art and toys, I'm not seeing feasibility in having them done before a small deposit is needed.

These are all great ideas. We live and breathe this game on a daily basis, so it's hard to remember that not-too-many people have seen a complete game on it from start to end. As far as a shot-map, we have a bit of a plan for that, as well, coming shortly. Also, the need to know that these aren't being put together in my livingroom or something should also be addressed

Shirts are coming shortly. We had quite a few orders and we're just now finishing all of that up.

Speaking candidly, there has to be some kind of warranty. We just aren't sure about what it should cover/entail at this point. Pins have WAY too many moving parts and high voltages to simply say everything is covered, I would think, but then again we just can't be sure. This might be better left up to someone who has done this sort of thing before. Are there such things are warranty lawyers??

Again, we're still in the planning stages of this idea, so we are trying to figure out all the specifics. We'd like to say it's fully refundable, but I simply can't say it that way until we know for sure how we are going to go about this.

See this post:

This is an extremely close answer. Right now we are outsourcing stuff that could be easily handled in-house for a tiny fraction of what it's looking to cost to get them manufactured simply because of the up-front costs of some specific tools that honestly aren't that expensive in the grand scheme of things. As an example, right now it costs us $75 plus material costs every time we need to make a new playfield blank. For like $15k, we can own the tools to do that in-house for nothing more than the cost of the materials and electricity. That not only saves us a few thousand dollars on the cost of blanks over the course of the production, but that literally translates into exactly $75 savings per game to you guys. Now think about that across more tools and such, and you have a series of very specific answers to your question.

The two (of the proposed 4 total) that we have been talking about are the swinging skinned bodies and the Predator's claw. On the right side of the left ramp there will be two skinned bodies hanging upside down in the "jungle" that swing and sway when you enter/exit the left ramp. From what we've talked about and what I've seen, they are very graphic and very real-looking. Should add a lot of emotional depth to the jungle area. On the left ramp itself you've seen the diverter that diverts the ball off the ramp for locking purposes. This will be converted into a life-like Predator claw that will appear to sort of steal the ball off of its path and pull it under the ramp. The other two, well... Let's just say they are going to fit the theme very well

Again, we really love the enthusiasm, but I think that might be a bit much for our immediate purposes

We've considered this many times, but right now we think it would be a logistical nightmare. It's not 100% ruled out, but for now we can't say anything final about it.

The waiting list is definitely something to consider, as well, as we get about 3~5 emails per day asking if we have any spots open.

There's a big difference between "what it takes" and "how we do it." I have no doubt in my mind that it can cost Stern Pinball a million bucks to do up a machine, but that's not to say it's the only way it can be done. Stern has a ton of huge industry names on board with their projects and those people need to be paid what they're worth, and they always go for extremely popular franchises which, I'm sure, don't come cheap, either. Take those two things alone out of the equation and you could likely cut that figure in half already. I'd also like to point out that we, as a company, have never paid for any kind of advertising, either, and I'm sure that's a gigantic difference, monetarily. Gary Stern was also on record saying that there is no room in the industry for another manufacturer, but honestly I haven't seen pinball--as an industry or a hobby--flourish like it has in the last year since the mid 90's. Gary is a second-generation pinball manufacturer with an enduring history. I have no doubt he and his company will adapt to the changing tides just fine. More pins = more choices = companies showing everything they've got to get your interest.

If you can come up with a system to handle this without making me go bald or have a stroke, I think it's a great idea.

This is very insightful and makes a ton of sense. We may end up doing something a lot like this.

Of the arithmetic we've been doing, 5% SHOULD be plenty. What we worry about is, as the Dude mentioned, this is already something of a change of plans to all on the list. 10% might be a bit much to drop on the buyers out-of-the-blue (a good percentage of buyers don't regularly check this thread, so it will all be new to them). Thinking from the perspective of someone who doesn't know us or isn't as deeply invested in the project emotionally, "a quick two-fifty" is a lot easier to throw out on faith than "half a grand," so to speak. I would hate to have someone skip out on the game because of a holding deposit when they would have otherwise gotten one and potentially loved it, not to mention the high probability of these things going in excess of $10k in the resale market in a few years.

Well, there's that to consider, too...

On a separate note, does anyone here know how to get ahold of Alex Levy?? I need him to contact me asap.

And we love ya for it.

This is me speaking personally as a hobbyist here, but I've always hated the whole "LE" movement in pins recently. It's cute if it's just powder-coated side-rails and some lighting effects, but the way things are going now you get shafted for buying "Pros" or whatever they're labeled as. I was a bit miffed when I heard Avatars were getting LE's that had extra rules and little features like the powerball thing, but now we're in a time when not getting an LE means you miss out on an ENTIRE PLAYFIELD (Ac/Dc)! I'm going to date myself a bit here, but back in the day if you saw a pin that was special, it was because somebody took the time and creativity to MAKE it special. Had nothing to do with upselling (or downselling) from the factory. I don't know how any of you guys feel about it, but honestly, I think the "LE" idea should be done away with altogether.

Working on SPF but I don't want to get anyone's hopes up just yet.

Bald looks fine on a lot of guys. I can tell you right now ahead of time that I would NOT be one of those guys

These were my thoughts, as well. A 5% deposit is something that I would be able to come up with by normal means if I needed to, but many people on the list have already casually stated that they are going to be selling a machine or two to make room for and gather the funds to purchase a Predator. Pinball is an expensive hobby, but I know a lot of pretty broke dudes (myself generally included) that manage to stay in by rotating games and using their resources in this way.

I don't see how one would be able to sell his spot. If someone drops off, the next on the waiting list moves in. If you're looking to turn the game around, you would have to wait until your game is up and let someone else pay for it in your stead, I guess.

True.

Another reason to go lower than higher with the deposit.

First mass email just went out. Hope you all got it.

I've heard this from a few people so far, so I guess we should let it sit for the night and see what happens, I suppose.

I looked at Mail Chimp very briefly and it looks like a service that will plaster ads for itself all over what goes out. The best lesson in internet etiquette: The more a website wants you there, the less you want to be there.

Please call us immediately if it lasts more than four hours.

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I guess that means it will keep attempting to send until it's done. I already hate this thing...

That's kinda what I was thinking. That means some of you may be seeing the same email 3 times...

We're trying out an overlay kind of process for the playfield right now. It's a pretty fancy process which makes it nearly impossible for the playfield to groove or for the art to fade or wear off. The test playfield we have here--even though there is no art on it yet--plays butter smooth and shows absolutely zero signs of grooving or peeling.

The cabinet art is applied with vinyl decals. We talked with the proprietor of a local vinyl shop here and showed him our old prototype cabinet (the one from Allentown) and voiced all of our concerns. After some lengthy explanations as to why certain things happen (peeling, fading, etc.), we were comfortable enough to let him give our newest prototype a shot and we are not disappointed in the least. We've left sun-lamps on it for a few days straight in very tight spots (like an 8 inch square on the side) and there is absolutely zero signs of fade. We've also held a hairdryer against the corners (read:problem areas) with no peeling issues. For those of you who saw the game on the Chicago Expo floor, you could see the cabinet looked as professional as any other game in the hall.

This might be true. Then again, the internet might just suck at us. Either way, I believe the problem to be sorted out now, but I guess we will just have to wait and see.

I'm not sure how many characters can go on the plate, but I really doubt the whole line from Long Tall Sally will fit in there.

Wow! I guess this is a big drawback to sharing information as it develops My post about the playfield art application just says what we are trying out right now. To ease all of your minds, there are a couple of things to be said here:

The process we're trying out is not a sticker on wood by any means. Formica is a close idea to what it is, but it's not exact. We are actually still in the dark on the nitty-gritty of it because it's military technology and civilians aren't privy to the information.

It has been out in the real world for some time now, and has proven to be nearly indestructible. Delamination was the number one concern we talked about, and the contractor was extremely confident that it would not be an issue.

Lastly, we've talked with Classic Playfield Reproductions and they have shown interest in doing the playfields for us, and we all know they do fantastic work and they do it through the conventional means that have been tried and true for years. This is one of the options we were looking at that WILL increase the price of the machine, so we were looking into something a little different that could compare to the quality that is needed. If it doesn't make the cut, then CPR is the only other option we're willing to follow. As potential owners of the final product, voice your opinions now. If you're genuinely uncomfortable with what we're considering, let's just leave the idea on the table of potentially increased cost for the comfort of knowing exactly what we'll be getting by going through CPR.

Oh, I certainly don't. We definitely didn't join up on forums for the sake of shameless free promotion or to sit around and hear how awesome we are. This is the exact reason we wanted to become active in the community as developers; so we can get feedback on certain ideas and implementations BEFORE they are cemented in place. The last thing we want is that feeling of "this is what we're doing, take it or leave it."

That's very true. Kinda does sound like "sticker on wood" in this context. I promise it isn't

A message to my email service provider: Don't impose limitations on software developers. They may just develop software to circumvent them.

That's what we're looking into these options for. In the event that 'innovation' becomes 'half-assing it,' we'll go with the tried-and-true instead.

In short, no. We had a representative of the company come out to my home to talk about the project and what they could do. When he took a look at Shadow (my cleanest game), he pointed at the playfield and said "that's what I do." The best part was that he immediately noticed the sanctum wear (of course) and pointed out not only why that happened, but how his exact process would disallow such a thing. And yes, it's seriously a military grade process. When we went to pick up our prototype blank with the test application, we legally weren't allowed to enter the building further than the entrance doors and we had to sit with designated security personnel while we waited. Not to say it wasn't a pleasurable experience; everyone was very nice and professional, but it was certainly a 'different' day...

No pressure

Completely off-topic, but this is my favorite "plate quote." It's something of a shop-joke around here, as well. Many times when something in the software doesn't work as intended, I'll go back over to my desk and implement what I think a fix for it would be. If it gets to the point where I've tried like three or four things and it's still acting up, I slouch and kind of 'crawl' out of my chair while lumbering towards the machine to test it again repeating "I'm gonna have me some fun" just like Mac does in the movie. We may be a lot of things over here, but admittedly, we're nerds first...

I love this one, as well. Would certainly make the game stand out in a lineup, especially to people who aren't immersed in pinball. As a casual pinballer, they would see a bunch of machines with their varying themes, then see the Predator sporting skinned swinging bodies, Arnold in the middle of a bunch of explosions on the playfield, the ominous Predator art on the side of the head, a claw on the playfield that physically steals the ball out of the jungle, and an engraving on the apron that says "you lose it here...you're in a world of hurt." They might be a little scared at that point, but either way they will know it's not your average game. Honorable mention would also go to "Makes Cambodia look like Kansas."

I don't think it's boring, it's meant to make it a little more personal. I think originally a few people were trying to leave their name off for potential resale value, and just had to come up with something to fill in the space and it just kind of grew from there.

We appreciate your angle here, but I kinda see it as exactly the opposite. It's your machine. We're just building them...

More random anecdotal banter: Craig from MI Amusement Cabinets is dead-set on making his playfield out of Corian, the super-sleek countertop material.

Couple hundred bucks at least. First, I have to say that while price is a big deal in anything and everything, CPR playfields are worth every cent they cost. That being said, the least expensive playfield they have on their site for sale at the moment is over $600(American) after being shipped. Even at manufacturers' cost, it would be quite a bit, I'm sure. Another issue would be shipping time/cost. They are based out of Nova Scotia, Canada, so that might pose a bit of a turnaround.

Best name plate for Predator: "Please have a seat."

I've just been telling him not to do it because it will be too fast and break parts all day. I would be lying if I said I wasn't interested to see how it would play, though.

They're coming very shortly.

On another note, we've had a lot of people ask for a playthrough of a full game beginning to end, so we will be offering that up in the next few days, as well. Anything specific you'd like us to shoot for in the video??

That's mostly what we're going to focus on; flow of the overall game and how, as a player, you can control it. I've been fighting with this thing all night to get a decent game going and I'm just playing like crap, so I'm a little worried about doing a video with the *GASP!* glass on

That's still the projection, yes.

I don't think it would ever get that high. I would be upset if it reached $5250, and I know you guys would be, too.

It won't.

Realistically, we're looking at late January before it really takes off.

Games will be manufactured by hand by a production team. Many of the processes are "farmed out" to professionals when it comes to things we simply can't do well enough to trust ourselves with, like building the cabinet, adding decals to the cabinet properly, printing the playfield, etc. At full swing, we're shooting to do around 40 machines per month. Of course this will be much slower, at first.

Deadline sounds a bit impersonal, but I can see the need for a solid date. The date we've been tossing around is December 14th. If anyone is having any issues with the deposit, I would just urge them to get ahold of me to discuss it.

Within a few days. I've got a lot of energy tonight, maybe tomorrow? Don't hold me to that

Giggity.

I often forget that the majority of the world doesn't share this lovely source of late-week income.

This is moving along. Have to pass a bunch of credit and security checks to get this set up, and it's hard to explain to a bank how you've been a company for over two years and never made a cent. At any rate, we'll know pretty soon.

Short answer: yes. More on this coming in a few days.

Yeah, I think it is, too... I'll get with Matt after the holiday and see if he's willing to share some stuff

Just sent the emails out again. The address you're giving me seems to match the one I have on file here, but I copied/pasted the address straight out of your PM to be sure. Let me know if/when you get them. I would have just replied to your message, but it says your messaging is disabled.

New video is finished and uploaded. It will be posted sometime tomorrow, I think you'll all really enjoy it and I hope it's everything you guys were looking to see. 'Til then, it's 5AM, good night for now

Should be worked out Monday or shortly after that. We'll definitely send out another email when we get all this sorted out.

On another note, has anyone checked the website lately?

Designed for it We need to figure out a few more places for GI to light the middle of the field a little better, but lights-off play has been on our minds from the start.

Yeah, it is a tricky shot, but there certainly were shots made. It's not really a shot you "fall on," you really have to make that shot with intent to make it around. I know in the video Killing Spree was started with a right ramp shot, but those black ramps make it hard to see black pearls when they're hit...

There's gonna be an easter egg with him showing up on Craigslist if these little girls don't stop trying to put Barbie clothes on the poor guy!

is this real life?

...or is it just fantasy?

-The pops and slings did seem a little unresponsive. The slings only fired once or twice. There was also no sound effect for slings or pops as far as I could tell.

Just need switch-adjusting, really. We'll be sure to tweak them for the next time we do anything public. There are sound effects for them, as well, they're just hard to hear over all the physical sounds going on in the room. I think we're going to set up a direct-feed audio/video setup for the game sounds and the DMD for the next video so we can balance it a little better.

-The skill shot beep could use a tweak. I like it ok, but... one thing that annoys me on my TFTC is when someone walks away with a ball in the shooter.

If you leave the game sit, it will eventually play a little sound effect and turn the volume of the game down to zero. Doesn't change the fact that I'm not in love with the beeping, either, so it will probably be manipulated a little bit or toned down.

-The DMD needs to be more tied into the modes. On most games the DMD has some kind of animation/special-scoring/info that is mode specific and stays up during the mode.

Slowly coming together. We haven't come up with anything that we like enough to use yet, but it's in the works.

It's also usually followed by a total score for the mode or something like that, so you know it's over and know what you got out of it.

I think the only mode that will end up showing the total for the mode itself will end up being Unload (the timed 4-ball madness multiball mode) unless there is an overwhelming demand for it in the other modes. The other modes are pretty straight-forward in their scoring, I think.

-There are no flashers in the game. Are there any plans to include flashers?

Of course. The game is programmed for 8, if I recall correctly. Being perfectly honest, we haven't put much thought into those in a while due to other 'stuff' that has been more pressing.

I like the look of the insert, uhm, 'stack'?, between the slings a lot. Anyone have any ideas how those are going to be demarcated?

Check out the attached picture.

a get to the choppa mode where you collect the remaining crew to Escape.

We kinda went the other way on that one with Killing Spree. Instead of helping characters escape, you help them die. Pretty cool, huh?

Does anyone else have a tough time seeing what the DMD animations are? Maybe it is just the grid lines, but I can rarely tell what the animations are?

We hear this a lot, and it's tough to get people to go on faith, so I'm going to get a little bit technical for just a second. First of all, no, it's not a bad camera or poor lighting or something, it is the DMD that looks 'muddy.' The display we're using for this prototype is a PinLED model. PinLED's are a great replacement for older DMD games and they save a lot of heartache if you have a bad or "iffy" dmd supply board. The issue is that they are designed for those older games and they only have 4 "colors" (bright, normal, dim and off). The animations we have in here are made in 16 "colors." This means that you're essentially losing 75% of the "colors" to the next closest drive-state. It's very noticeable at all levels, to be sure, but it's most noticeable in the lower end of the "color" spectrum, where the lower colors are replaced with the "off" drive-state, essentially leaving "holes" in the animations. We're picking up our new display in about a week, and we will put up a short video (no post-production stuff, just a quick look) showing the difference in the DMD quality. While the animations, I believe, are still pretty decent in their current state, I will trust that literally four times better will be acceptable to most anyone

Well a color dmd would have to be programmed to that specific game and I'm not so sure skit-b has the resources for that.

Color DMD's aren't exactly DMD's, to be sure. They are LCD screens that have been meticulously programmed and tied in to the games they have been designed and made for. If we were going to go that far, we would have just went with a normal LCD screen and allowed for like 720p animations in 32-bit color. I can't speak for Aaron specifically, but as a player, I'm not totally sold on LCD in pinball yet, unless we're talking about something like the P^3's application. An LCD as a display is something that is going to take a long time for me to get used to.

Great sense of humor and attitude guys.....keep up the great work!

Thanks

Needs to be RED! BLOOD RED.

Most likely will be.

Plasma displays would help a lot, I asked about them before and Kevin didn't see a reason it couldn't be an aftermarket upgrade. As it stands the grid edges and different brightnesses of the patchwork are easier for the eyes to settle on than the actual moving images, hence the problem. Only way to fix it is epic contrast (Tron did that, I don't think it's ideal because it cripples all machines to improve some), or put in a plasma.

Plasma displays are power-hungry monsters and require a separate PCB to power them. That being said, all of the display animations and data are stored on the computing unit, so it would be feasibly possible to convert a Predator to use a plasma display by switching the DMD's out and adding a board that could power it without the need of ROM chips on the display board or on the DMD itself. I didn't know that Stern has tackled the gridline issue in such a way, that's very interesting. I'm not saying anything bad here, but I read "epic contrast" as "loss of definition."

I also agree about having better differences between modes, whether it be with music change or DMD intro.

The music does change, and every "mode" (being standard mode or multiball or whatnot) has a unique intro animation. It can get pretty hard to follow as more and more modes get stacked up, and the music is getting reworked into something of a priority queue. Also, there was a bug in the first video right after Killing Spree started that caused the music to reset back to the overall gameplay music (but we think we have a good idea where that came from)

If I recall talking to kevin at the expo that the DMD they are gonna use is gonna have 16 colors instead of 4 which is the one in the video.

I wish I would have seen this post before I typed out that long-winded response above, but since I already spent the time to type it out, it stays

I also recall Kevin saying that cointakers is gonna help them with a better light for the UV.

Yep.

Definitely need more Predator(clicking) noises in the game, possibly random.

Interesting idea... I wonder if it would be distracting? We'll try it out and see what happens.

I don't know how those systems work, but, couldn't the code be identical and the DMD swap fix it? I mean the signal could be being sent to handle those 16 shades or whatever, and if the hardware can't hack it it'll just put up the best match with the four it has like a crap TV on a good signal.

This is pretty much exactly what's going on.

I'm sure they are going to stop by over the next few days to answer our 8 million questions, lol.

Working on it

if they're realistically two to three months out from making the first games, I would think time is tight.

You would be right.

the black ramps are not..horrible..

Yes they are.

I can't remember which game i saw clear green ramps on but i think that would look cool on Predator..

Maybe, but I don't think we're going to play with ramp color on this one. Clear is nice and clean and doesn't get in the way of much, if anything.

Longest post ever? Maybe. Hope I answered everything you guys were hoping for.

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The forecast today for Geelong, Australia is 90 degrees and partly cloudy. You'll be fine.

I know, this is taking WAY longer than I expected, and it's driving me nuts. You'll know something as soon as we know it.

Depends on what days you're going to be around. I'm curious to know exactly where you're going to be in Michigan that would be a couple hours away from the Detroit area.

Pretty unlikely, at this point. We just never came up with anything good enough, honestly, and we agree that it kinda doesn't fit the theme so well.

There are a few already, and I'm sure there will be a lot more going in. I'm sure more than one will involve name entry, as that is easy to do and it's quick and easy to show off to others.

This is an AWESOME idea! I'll look into what will work for such a thing and try to stick it in there.

Can you give us some percentages of how complete you feel everything is?

This deserved its own individual response, sorry for the double post.

1. Playfield

I would say high 80%, low 90%. Entrance for the right eject is going to open up a bit, exits from both ejects are moving up to more reliably hit into the pops like they're supposed to, top diverter is getting tweaked to get the feel we were looking for, maybe a few other things.

2. Lighting

It doesn't look like it, but the lighting is about 90% complete, also. Just need to light up the center of the playfield a little better, install the flashers and get the new UV assembly on there.

3. Rules

Damn near 100%. This has been our major focus for quite a while, and I hope it shows.

4. Modes

85%. Need to add background animations and maybe little instruction-type text to the openings.

5. Music

At least 95%. Only music work that is left to do is debug a couple weird issues and arrange the "hierarchy" so that modes of lower "importance" won't take over the soundtrack when they're stacked into whatever is going on.

6. Sound Effects

This is another one in the high 90's. Gotta work in a few more Predator-type sounds into the overall gameplay and a few more easter eggs in the meantime.

7. Animations

This is the lowest one, but I'll say something like 65, maybe 70 percent. Anything with the old fonts and simple styles are getting redone, obviously, and all the mode intros are getting redone, as well, to include some text on the screen to let you know what mode you're in, along with some very brief instructions where necessary.

Can we see more artwork please, Mr. Tease?

Fine, but just a little one

DSC06646.JPG

Every Predator comes with plastic leg protectors anyways.

Koen, once we get it (this coming monday), we will take some quick comparison videos and post them up online.

On another note, PayPal is up and running properly. The email with the proper information will be going out late tonight/early tomorrow, but for those of you who want to get on it early can go ahead and send deposits to [email protected].

Damn, Art, yes, you were certainly the first from Pinside to hit the PayPal mark. I think that was like seconds

Working on it. There will definitely be SOMETHING, though.

Costs more to come pick it up. Booze and libations aren't free

Trust me, you'll know this stuff pretty darn quick after it's done.

December 14th is going to be a pretty busy day for us, I can tell you that right now. You are right in remembering that date, but we're trying to be an lenient as possible with pre-owners. If someone has special circumstances that prevent them from being able to make their deposit, PLEASE CONTACT ME DIRECTLY ([email protected]). While we have a very real need to know who is serious about this project, we certainly don't want someone to lose their game because of a timing issue, especially during the holiday season. That being said, once Dec14 comes and goes, if we haven't heard anything from someone, we have to assume that he/she would be giving up their spot. That's when the waitlisters will start being moved into the pre-order spots.

Oh, and on that note, we have lost very few pre-orders, especially compared to the numbers I was worried about, initially, but I can tell you there are some spots opening up. I'm not sure if it's enough to cover the entire waitlist, but we'll know more on the 14th.

Probably not. With as much audio going on as we have, it would be really forced.

Me too.

They're coming

Thanks for the kind words, honesty and professionalism. The machine you see in the video essentially is in the same condition as the game you saw in Chicago, but for the many people who couldn't make it to the Chicago Expo, this is the first they've seen of this build.

I don't want to sound harsh here, but this is something that won't happen if I have any say so in it. If I were on the waitlist for a game for months in advance and someone managed to buy their way on, I'd be extremely upset, and I don't want that to happen to anyone.

You won't. The deposits we've asked for are being used to push the project into completion, and we see no reason why that won't happen.

We try to be realistic at the same time as pushing ourselves to meet the dates we set. While saying that we should be into production before the end of winter might be ambitious, it's still realistic to expect if we keep moving forward at the rate we're going. While talking with Jack at the Michigan Expo this year, he gave the advice of, "under-promise, over-deliver." Sage advice, to be sure, and at the time I was devoted to heeding it, but as the community interacted with us more and more, I've changed my thinking to "tell everybody exactly what's going on while it's going on, and they'll understand if something slips." I'll admit that this philosophy has shot me in the foot a few times, but it helps me sleep at night

I am flattered and I am not upset, and if you sent an email to get on the waitlist you will be there (in the order that the email was received), so no worries

Yes, the blacklights are installed in the machine and were active during the gameplay videos. Unfortunately, they are extremely hard to see in the videos due to the lighting in the shop here and from the angle the video was filmed, they are completely obscured by the makeshift assemblies that hold them in place. That is by design, though, because UV light is really annoying to the eye if you look right at it, and it's meant to hit the playfield only. In this proto we went with proper UV lights, and I honestly regret it for this point in testing. There isn't anything UV reactive on the playfield yet and the black ramps don't light up like the clear ones do, obviously, so the effect is really lost while playing this build. We still have the blue lights here in a box somewhere, so I'm probably going to switch them back in so we at least get the feel back while testing/playing until the cool UV reactive stuff gets in there. Also on the subject of lighting, we definitely notice the lack of light in the center, and we're going to fix that. For those of you paying really close attention, the previous proto did have some extra lighting in the center and we took it out because we thought it was too much. Lesson learned; it's going back.

That's because I suck and didn't get the Super Jackpot in either of the videos. It's still there, but it does come from a Super Jackpot, so unless you are a much better player than I, don't expect to hear it every time you play

Welcome to Australia, where software piracy would cost more than purchasing!

Yeah, Predator was only at the Shark Club for the weekend during the Snowball Open tournament. We had a TON of requests to bring it out for the show and patrons really enjoyed having it there. Many of the local guys here hadn't seen it since its first appearance at the Michigan Expo back in mid-April, and they were blown away by the progress it had made. Also, it was very nice to be able to leave the game alone in the lineup and go play other games and talk with people all weekend with a stable enough prototype to not worry about it screwing up (I think we had a grand total of 3 issues with it where we had to reset the game).

Oh, and it should be noted that the game brought in about $4 in coin drop, even on free play Sadly, that $4 was quickly relocated to the Star Trek TNG upon collection...

Oh, my... I suppose it would be time for something of a "state of the union" post, yes?

Short of defending trivial things, PinballDad is really on to something. I do think many of us have missed the point of his initial post, so hopefully I don't do the same. What I read is that people have been wanting to see certain things pretty badly and we haven't shown any of it, while we still managed to go out for a weekend to a public tourney with the game. The response to this is pretty simple:

The machine is in complete enough condition to show and the things requested are not.

A project of this magnitude requires a monumental amount of networking and consolidation of resources. Our in-house team can accomplish quite a bit on our own, but certain aspects just have to be sent out to other professionals who can handle it. These things include, but certainly aren't limited to, playfield artwork and toys. These things cannot be rushed. That being said, they are still moving along nicely. I have seen things from Matt that have really blown me away, and while it kills me to have to keep it to ourselves, it's necessary to wait until it is DONE to show it to you guys. Not because we're sadists and overall bastards, but because for many legitimate reasons concerning both business and presentation. We learn from our mistakes, even the ones we consider "small."

There is a lot of talk about the changes that should happen now that money has exchanged hands, and I disagree with just about all of them. The only thing that has changed on our end is that we are able to gather resources when we need them and our shop is warm (infinite thanks for that). We have found that we have literally hundreds of dedicated people who have real faith in us to accomplish monumental goals within a reasonable time frame, and we do feel the need to repay not the monetary commitment but the "spiritual" commitment as best we can in any way we can. When we see posts asking for peeks at artwork or toys or anything else, we certainly don't just overlook them and keep moving; we usually call our contractors and see how things are progressing.

On that note, I can't PROMISE a Christmas look at highly-developed playfield art and toys, but I have been assured that such a thing shouldn't be a problem by both parties. Trust me, our fingers are crossed just as hard as yours.

There has been a lot of progress with the game in ways that seem trivial, but are very important. The game now handles a lot of functions differently that keep it running with less bugs and hiccups, and the new animations are coming along (just not implemented yet). There are a few more voice calls and sound effects in the game, and every different multiball and mode has its own music to go with it. We have our end-product circuit boards here in-shop and ready to go in, and code work on the last remaining elements of the game are nearing completion. We also have an updated playfield CAD with all the minor changes we needed to make in place, which is to be cut within the next few days. Ramp angles have been confirmed to be proper, so work on the 3-D mold for the ramps has begun, as well.

Oh, and clear ramps.

On the plate:
We get deposits in various forms every day, and one or two waitlisters at the same rate. There is a ridiculous amount of logistics involved with all of this paperwork, and it's terribly cumbersome. If you've sent me an email within the last few weeks and haven't heard back, please be patient as I am going to take some time off from all of my normal duties to hit the emails and get all of the communications under control. If you're wondering if we received your deposit, there will be a mass-confirmation email going out as soon as we can to thank everyone for their support. While I'm on the subject of communication, if it is at all possible, please use my email address ([email protected]) instead of using PinSide's PM service. Quick messages or whatever are fine, but "important" messages are hard to keep track of when they are in two different places.

I know it has taken way longer than anticipated/acceptable, but t-shirts will be arriving before the holiday and will be going out immediately after they arrive.

I think that's about it for now. If anyone has any other questions, as always, drop 'em here or email me, whatever.

not one mention of a pony.

Oh yeah. And this pony.

black_kvlt_pony_by_flick_the_thief-d52.jpg

That sounds like the first thing said at the beginning of a very long weekend...

As denoted by my LE pony, pants in this thread are always optional.

I got an updated playfield scan this morning and it's looking pretty damn good. Not completed yet, let me just get that out of the way, but maturing very well. The existing stuff has been inked and expounded upon greatly, and there are a few additions that are sure to please. I'll get a proper picture up here shortly.

Oh, and don't count Matt out just yet. I have it on good authority that we'll have something up here in a day or two

And now here's something we hope you'll really like.

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