I will send in $1000 to lock in #13 as soon as I can.
(Topic ID: 26628)
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Predator
Skit-B Pinball, 2013
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Midland Township, MI
Quoted from gambit3113:I will send in $1000 to lock in #13 as soon as I can.
That's a little closer to 20%, but I love the enthusiasm. The extra would be in gratitude to Aaron for giving up his number, right? 
On a more serious note, I am elated to see overall positive reactions to this idea. I wasn't sure how you guys would react to the idea while we were discussing it, and you've all taken quite a weight off of me/us. We have the best community, don't you agree?
I'm cool with it. When you finalize it, just make sure you not only inform us here but email as well.
Chris #4
5% is doable and fine by me. Since my space is so limited here I will be selling my collection (2 games max) To make room/fund so as long as I can see a decent idea of when my spot is coming up I can clear room and free up the remander funds. Just don't want to do it to early and then have no games for an extended period. Production list/order updates will be great.
I dont think 5% is of any issue.
On the other side, with all due respect, Kevin, there are many non-buyers who simply believe you cant do it..(Not me), that even Jack with all he has going has it hard.
I think to cement this for those on the list, and those on the other side, a more advanced prototype showing, or an idea on how 3 guys or more, can make this a reality, might lock it for sure.
The undercurrent of it "cant be done" vs those that "want and believe" is real, but not often posted,
as we all want this game more then any other new game being offered.
For me, a no brainer.....I not only believe, and want, I MUST HAVE!!!
Art #100
This is probably a silly question but I didn't see it posted, is there gonna be some type of standard shipping or are we expected to set up shipping? In the US that is. I know it's early to ask about it but I wanna get my ducks in a row.
Quoted from Whridlsoncestood:Just don't want to do it to early and then have no games for an extended period. Production list/order updates will be great.
This information will be included in the first email that goes out to the "pre-owners." We will most likely have a monthly update email that goes out to let everyone know how production is moving along so they can get a good grasp on when their turn is coming up. Not to mention fun stuff like release parties and such
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:there are many non-buyers who simply believe you cant do it..(Not me), that even Jack with all he has going has it hard.
This is going to be a tough ship to sink. All manufacturers in the industry honestly have a tough road ahead of them, and we are certainly no exception. To address your post directly, non-buyers who think we can't do it will hopefully get a chance to play a complete Predator someday. What they take away from the experience is theirs and theirs alone, but at least they will see that it was done and done as it was intended to be.
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:is there gonna be some type of standard shipping or are we expected to set up shipping? In the US that is.
We have a couple of contracts in the works to keep shipping costs as low as possible, and we are certainly willing to help in any way we can, but at the end of the day shipping cost simply has to be up to the buyer. In the US it shouldn't be too bad--usually a couple hundred bucks--especially if you're close to the eastern US region. We have our pre-order list grouped by country so all the folks from a certain country can get together to drive down shipping costs; perhaps that might be an idea for different regions of the US, as well?
you should allow pick up in MI when games are ready!
A big party!!!! or many continual small parties when batches of games are complete...
Thanks for the info. I wasn't too worried about shipping cost just if I needed to find a company to ship it to me. You answered my question though, good to know you're gonna try and contract a shipping company.
Villejuif
Quoted from SkitBPinball:We have a couple of contracts in the works to keep shipping costs as low as possible, and we are certainly willing to help in any way we can, but at the end of the day shipping cost simply has to be up to the buyer. In the US it shouldn't be too bad-
Well, if you know (relatively) inexpensive solution to ship to Europe please tell... By air: 1,000 - 1,200 euros for what I know?
No problem with the 5%!
Mississauga, ON
Quoted from Whysnow:you should allow pick up in MI when games are ready!
A big party!!!! or many continual small parties when batches of games are complete...
We are on board for any/all of these options
Quoted from jlm33:Well, if you know (relatively) inexpensive solution to ship to Europe please tell...
I'm sure we will know one soon enough. Overseas stuff might have to be handled by a different shipper, but we will get it all figured out.
I love how this game will track all of the statistics by player. Hey Stern and JJP jump on this as well. It’s a nice touch and something different to add to owning a game or log into when playing at an outside location. On a side note I still don't understand how anyone can buy a game before actually playing it.
Quoted from SkitBPinball:We are on board for any/all of these options
I'm sure we will know one soon enough. Overseas stuff might have to be handled by a different shipper, but we will get it all figured out.
How about shipping to Canada,is this a problem.
Take my 5% to,and give me Drano's number instead of mine at #16
I think he is #3
Unknown City
Can't see too many bailing at 5%. I suspect that it might actually work the other way as more people will want to join the waiting list now that something a bit more tangible is happening.
Just send the email out and you'll have $62500 to start production with 
5% not a problem, but we are still yet to see finished playfield artwork so perhaps getting that done should be the priority before ANY money is taken?
I aint a fan of handing over money without knowing EXACTLY what i'm getting as a final product.
Of course, if i were to receive an email asking for the 5% with a pic of the playfield with artwork fully coloured, i wouldnt see a problem in handing it over should it meet my tastes (which so far it does)
Get the art finished, THEN ask for the money.
Jack on the Rocks. Favorite movie ever. Love pinball. Can see from the videos what the game entails, and I don't have an opportunity to play the game before it's made. I hope this can help you to understand better. I would play a used game first so see condition, but this baby's NIB.
I have no problem with 5% without a playfield pic first, but would like to know if the drawings of the soldiers are rough drafts or not. Blaine looks awesome, but the other dudes kind of look like caricatures of themselves. It's better than I can draw, but it would look funny to have real pics of the guys on the trans, and then hand drawn pictures of them below that look kinda funny.
And I too would plan on picking up the game directly from SkitB.
I am also in for a 5% deposit, no problem! It would be great to get some more details though, even if they are speculative at this point. Maybe a video of a complete game being played? A shot map? How and where do you plan to manufacture the production games? And... can I get a t-shirt for my $25 donation a few weeks back?
Quoted from Russo121:5% not a problem, but we are still yet to see finished playfield artwork so perhaps getting that done should be the priority before ANY money is taken?
Seriously, do you get to see any pictures from Stern, JPP or any other company before putting a deposit?
These guys brought their game to expos to actually play before getting any deposit. Having played the unfinished product and it being loads of fun is more than enough for me put down a deposit without the finished artwork.
I do understand Artwork is very important but come on they are only asking for $250 dollars!
#34
5% is peanuts, but if it's refundable, I'm not sure what it really accomplishes. Who would bail out at only ~$250?
I'd be much more willing to put down 10% non-refundable if I saw:
1) 100% complete prototype. Finished art, rules, playfield, toys. (bug fixes, software updates, etc. notwithstanding)
2) Production schedule accurate within 3 months, including production order.
Conversely, what I don't want is the situation similar to other company's pre-orders, where money changes hands and then a game is still not delivered over 18 months later. I'm starting to see a shift in sentiment because of this, and if I had a horse in one of those races I'd be wringing my hands by this point.
Quoted from Jackontherocks:I still don't understand how anyone can buy a game before actually playing it.
That's why we've tried to take the game out to as many shows as possible. It's a weird situation, though. Orders come in much faster than shows we can make it to, so there's a bit of pressure there...
Quoted from playboywillis:it would look funny to have real pics of the guys on the trans, and then hand drawn pictures of them below that look kinda funny.
Shooting for a comic-book style with the characters, and so far they're looking exactly how they were envisioned. Take a close look at Hawkins in the art. In the show he spends most of his time playing the role of a bit of a doofus, but he's still a hardened, special-ops soldier and the art reflects that perfectly.
Quoted from bigduke6:My deposit will be coming, but seeing the finished art first would be great.
Art updates are coming in on a weekly basis at least. As much as we all want to see the finished art and toys, I'm not seeing feasibility in having them done before a small deposit is needed.
Quoted from Betelgeuse:Maybe a video of a complete game being played? A shot map? How and where do you plan to manufacture the production games?
These are all great ideas. We live and breathe this game on a daily basis, so it's hard to remember that not-too-many people have seen a complete game on it from start to end. As far as a shot-map, we have a bit of a plan for that, as well, coming shortly. Also, the need to know that these aren't being put together in my livingroom or something should also be addressed
Quoted from Betelgeuse:can I get a t-shirt for my $25 donation a few weeks back?
Shirts are coming shortly. We had quite a few orders and we're just now finishing all of that up.
5% is no problem at all
I will be picking my machine (#105) up in person for sure. No shipping required!
Honestly I'm surprised you've managed to wait this long for a deposit... a meager 5% holding deposit sounds very reasonable.
On another more serious topic - how do you envision handling warranty on the machine and service during that warranty period? (Unless you're not offering a warranty....)
Hey Kevin,
5% is not a big deal to drop down on this but would it be refundable in any way? Sounds like it may from earlier posts.
If I remember right, the original idea for payment was to send in $2500 or approx half of the cost of the game when the individuals build date is up, then pay the other half or rest of monies owed when game is completed and ready for shipment. I may be wrong but I thought that was the plan. Any reason for changing that plan?
Quoted from loren3233:Any reason for changing that plan?
My guess would be because manufacturing requires major up front costs. You don't want to be outsourcing cabinets and playfields 10 at a time if you can get them all made at once.
Also, I forgot to ask about the 'interactive' toys. I know it's not possible for us to see them at this point, but could buyers get some details on what the proposed toys are and what they do?
Keep up the awesome work guys!
-Brian #46
Quoted from loren3233:Any reason for changing that plan?
I see at least one good reason: the growing waiting list. Know at least someone who woke up too late. He would like to know if he has a chance or not. Asking for a deposit - even modest - will be a go / no go test. Hopefully for the poor souls in Limbo, some people may decide to give up.
Nidderau
If they are using the money to buy parts it probably will not be refundable until possibly a wait list guy takes the other person's position, at a guess.
I am from overseas so we have a few more challenges - freight etc so personally like some of the other guys would like to see some details like some art detail including some colour, intended toys, straight on playfield shot layout photos, warranty, this is a bigger investment for us with more risk of damage etc.
It's great that skitbpinball go to shows as us overseaers are using you guys that can go to shows as our measuring stick but with a handful of opinions some more info would be appreciated.
On a related note, I saw a Gary Stern interview where he explaining why a pinball machine cost $5K he said it costs roughly $750K to $1million to design a machine.
I know this was a nebulous catch all figure, I wonder how this jives with small manufacturers such as yourself. I realize it is not the same process but the end product is the same.
Quoted from T-800:how do you envision handling warranty on the machine and service during that warranty period?
Speaking candidly, there has to be some kind of warranty. We just aren't sure about what it should cover/entail at this point. Pins have WAY too many moving parts and high voltages to simply say everything is covered, I would think, but then again we just can't be sure. This might be better left up to someone who has done this sort of thing before. Are there such things are warranty lawyers?? 
Quoted from loren3233:5% is not a big deal to drop down on this but would it be refundable in any way?
Again, we're still in the planning stages of this idea, so we are trying to figure out all the specifics. We'd like to say it's fully refundable, but I simply can't say it that way until we know for sure how we are going to go about this.
Quoted from loren3233:I may be wrong but I thought that was the plan. Any reason for changing that plan?
See this post:
Quoted from Betelgeuse:My guess would be because manufacturing requires major up front costs. You don't want to be outsourcing cabinets and playfields 10 at a time if you can get them all made at once.
This is an extremely close answer. Right now we are outsourcing stuff that could be easily handled in-house for a tiny fraction of what it's looking to cost to get them manufactured simply because of the up-front costs of some specific tools that honestly aren't that expensive in the grand scheme of things. As an example, right now it costs us $75 plus material costs every time we need to make a new playfield blank. For like $15k, we can own the tools to do that in-house for nothing more than the cost of the materials and electricity. That not only saves us a few thousand dollars on the cost of blanks over the course of the production, but that literally translates into exactly $75 savings per game to you guys. Now think about that across more tools and such, and you have a series of very specific answers to your question.
Quoted from Betelgeuse:My guess would be because manufacturing requires major up front costs. You don't want to be outsourcing cabinets and playfields 10 at a time if you can get them all made at once.
Also, I forgot to ask about the 'interactive' toys. I know it's not possible for us to see them at this point, but could buyers get some details on what the proposed toys are and what they do?
The two (of the proposed 4 total) that we have been talking about are the swinging skinned bodies and the Predator's claw. On the right side of the left ramp there will be two skinned bodies hanging upside down in the "jungle" that swing and sway when you enter/exit the left ramp. From what we've talked about and what I've seen, they are very graphic and very real-looking. Should add a lot of emotional depth to the jungle area. On the left ramp itself you've seen the diverter that diverts the ball off the ramp for locking purposes. This will be converted into a life-like Predator claw that will appear to sort of steal the ball off of its path and pull it under the ramp. The other two, well... Let's just say they are going to fit the theme very well
Quoted from rommy:$500 is a better number to ensure in for long haul. I like $500.
Again, we really love the enthusiasm, but I think that might be a bit much for our immediate purposes
Quoted from Pinballfantexas:How about a monthly payment plan?
We've considered this many times, but right now we think it would be a logistical nightmare. It's not 100% ruled out, but for now we can't say anything final about it.
Quoted from jlm33:I see at least one good reason: the growing waiting list.
The waiting list is definitely something to consider, as well, as we get about 3~5 emails per day asking if we have any spots open.
Quoted from SkitBPinball:The two (of the proposed 4 total) that we have been talking about are the swinging skinned bodies and the Predator's claw. On the right side of the left ramp there will be two skinned bodies hanging upside down in the "jungle" that swing and sway when you enter/exit the left ramp. From what we've talked about and what I've seen, they are very graphic and very real-looking. Should add a lot of emotional depth to the jungle area. On the left ramp itself you've seen the diverter that diverts the ball off the ramp for locking purposes. This will be converted into a life-like Predator claw that will appear to sort of steal the ball off of its path and pull it under the ramp. The other two, well... Let's just say they are going to fit the theme very well
Sounds fun!!!!
Quoted from rai:I saw a Gary Stern interview where he explaining why a pinball machine cost $5K he said it costs roughly $750K to $1million to design a machine.
There's a big difference between "what it takes" and "how we do it." I have no doubt in my mind that it can cost Stern Pinball a million bucks to do up a machine, but that's not to say it's the only way it can be done. Stern has a ton of huge industry names on board with their projects and those people need to be paid what they're worth, and they always go for extremely popular franchises which, I'm sure, don't come cheap, either. Take those two things alone out of the equation and you could likely cut that figure in half already. I'd also like to point out that we, as a company, have never paid for any kind of advertising, either, and I'm sure that's a gigantic difference, monetarily. Gary Stern was also on record saying that there is no room in the industry for another manufacturer, but honestly I haven't seen pinball--as an industry or a hobby--flourish like it has in the last year since the mid 90's. Gary is a second-generation pinball manufacturer with an enduring history. I have no doubt he and his company will adapt to the changing tides just fine. More pins = more choices = companies showing everything they've got to get your interest.
Quoted from SkitBPinball:On the right side of the left ramp there will be two skinned bodies hanging upside down in the "jungle" that swing and sway when you enter/exit the left ramp
AWESOME!! YES! YES! YES!
If the purpose of the deposit is to separate real buyers from place holders, then I think 10% (or $500) is a better price point.
I personally feel that you have shown enough of the game to justify a 10% deposit request.
Whether it is 5% or 20%, I'm ready to put down a deposit.
And if any lower numbers bail out, I simply request that you give those paying the deposit an opportunity to switch numbers before handing out one of the lower numbers to a new customer.
Marcus
#127
Quoted from SkitBPinball:Again, we're still in the planning stages of this idea, so we are trying to figure out all the specifics. We'd like to say it's fully refundable, but I simply can't say it that way until we know for sure how we are going to go about this.
I definitely see the reasoning behind taking deposits. That said, I hope you do make it refundable as sometimes there is no way to foresee what may come up to prevent the purchase of a machine. Considering this is a change of plans from what we were told early on and you seem to have a decent waiting list I think it would be a fair way to go about it.
Quoted from Xerico:I personally feel that you have shown enough of the game to justify a 10% deposit request.
Whether it is 5% or 20%, I'm ready to put down a deposit.
+1
Make the deposit refundable when someone else fills their place.
So, I tell you I want out, I get my deposit back as soon as someone from the waiting list takes my spot. That should protect your cash flow.
Alternatively, I could "sell" my spot, collect my refund, and submit the swap to you.
I have been thinking lots about the deposit and have come up with the following ideas.
Just my opinion...
I think there are both pros/cons to making deposits non-refundable. The deposit IMHO should act as a litmus to help people decide if they are IN or OUT so you can appropriately fill the slots with commited folks and weed out those that are on the fence. That said, if it is non-refundable I think you should probably provide some more concrete info about timeframe to completion and firm up playfield art or something else that should not be too limited by your pocketbooks. Providing more info to get those currently on the pre-order list amped up will likely help them to decide their relative level of commitment. Then again, taking a non-refundable deposit will make the peanut gallery more vocal is my guess. Basically, I would rec not taking any $ until it is absolutely needed for you to move the project forward. The longer you wait to take $, the more you will feel commited to YOUR vision rather than being swayed by your 'investors' I hope that makes sense?
A refundable deposit basically means nothing as far as truely measuring commitment from people. Many will likely 'lend you' $250 just to see it out a little longer and decide later.
Either way, all will expect a contract so they have commitment of what they are getting when investing in your ideas finacially.
I also think the $250 is a perfect amount to request so long as it will get you there. I would guess many will not be happy if you request more deposit later unless that is outlined up front. In other words, asking for what you need to make this realisitcally happen up front is going to much better for overall good vibes then coming back 3 months from now and asking for a bigger deposit.
IMHO $500 up front is better than $250 now and a suprise $250 in 4 months.
again JMHO.
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