(Topic ID: 98272)

New policy for editing your posts

By robin

7 years ago


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  • 177 posts
  • 73 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 years ago by JSmith
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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    There are 177 posts in this topic. You are on page 4 of 4.
    #151 7 years ago
    Quoted from PinballHelp:

    Usenet always has had the ability to delete messages though.

    Sort of... Cancel requests were often ignored by many servers as they could be forged and were prone to abuse.

    #152 7 years ago
    Quoted from metallik:

    Sort of... Cancel requests were often ignored by many servers as they could be forged and were prone to abuse.

    Any system that refused to honor cancel requests could have their feed cut.

    Suffice to say, the old adage of "Once you put it online, it's there forever" should not be dismissed, but it is respectful to give users the choice and option to minimize their content footprint where possible. Even though Google archives content, you can have your data removed from their index by request. Generally, there are some basic RFCs that apply in these situations that networks on the Internet are supposed to respect.

    The exception does not prove the rule. There are systems in place to remove content from usenet and Google groups. Participating systems by their charter must adhere to the RFCs or face being cut off from the uplink feeds.

    EDIT: Same thing applies to the comment below ..\

    #153 7 years ago
    Quoted from PinballHelp:

    Usenet always has had the ability to delete messages though.

    Not true. Google Groups had the ability to 'delete' messages. I put the word delete in quotes because it was more of a hide from other GG users delete and not a true delete. On Usenet those messages were still visible to everyone as it propagated the thread to every NNTP server around the world.

    I vote for a short (1-4 hour) edit limit. This is mostly because I'm a bad at spelling, grammar and punctuation. I usually have to go back and correct. Or, maybe after reading, my post is a babbling pile of incoherent trash. That gives me a chance to immediately go back and correct it. After that though, any changes must be done through another posting.

    #154 7 years ago
    Quoted from Wizcat:

    There is a very real difference between a momentary conversation between a limited audience, and an internet post that will likely be around for decades, visible to the entire world.

    Agreed! Pinside is the latter, not the former.

    This isn't a chat room, it's a forum, with logged history. And it's not a limited audience, it's a public forum, with a lot of lurkers not just the members you see posting, that's indexed by search engines like Google. So treat it as such.

    #155 7 years ago

    Robin, I for one applaud you for restricting edits of older posts. As painful as it is to go back to some of my earlier posts and see what I sometimes said I think it's more important that a record is kept of what everyone says on the forum. Just the other day a forum member contradicted something they had said to me earlier and I went looking for their post so I could quote it and I couldn't find it. Honestly it could be my own pitiful ability to search through the past posts but I'm also wondering if there had been some pruning...

    #156 7 years ago

    Killing or limiting edits i dont think is realy neccisary the jumbled erased edits I dont think is that much of a problem and what if someone decided to turn a shop out thread into a restoration what would that result in another thread? then the threads already push others down the screen pretty fast some days and who wants to goto the trouble of trying to find a thread thats been changed say 3-4 times and remember which one they realy wanted to find?

    It seems to me changing edit options realy just makes the site less user friendly If its not realy broken dont fix it.

    #157 7 years ago
    Quoted from Wizcat:

    No, because I lose ownership of content that I have provided. It's the principals of the policy change that upset me.

    It's not a change - your contributions have never been temporary. You should look at the Terms of Service when you signed up:

    "In contributing to Pinside.com, you agree to grant Pinside.com a perpetual, non-exclusive right and licence to publish your contribution on the website whilst you continue to remain a member, as well as to publish and distribute your contribution, and with your separate permission, as part of any compilation work that Pinside.com may choose to produce in any format at any time. Once you have given your permission, it cannot be withdrawn. This will apply even if you have been suspended or banned from the site."

    This is consistent everywhere online. Assume once you submit it, it's permanent.

    Quoted from Wizcat:

    Look, I get it. It 'solves' two problems:
    a) There may be once or twice amongst the thousands of users where someone has got upset and deleted their content. So what? They provided that content. For whatever reason they've decided they don't want to be part of the community and now delete that content. It may break up the flow of the thread, but I would argue that a user is well within their rights to delete their own content. Most often this kind of thing happens when a user has been in an argument and would like the opportunity to start over. I'd say that is more a good thing than a bad thing.
    b) Someone may maliciously change their post to cause trouble in some capacity. Whether its faking the price that something sold for, or whatever, its bad behaviour. That should already be addressable by banning.
    A policy change like this is taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Over the top, unnecessary and unwelcome.

    Just because you didn't see it, so you think it's only 'once or twice' doesn't make it true.. as Robin has already stated, and I can tell you as another site operator. It's pretty standard to limit editing because the problems are so frequent and it's an easy fix.

    You'd be amazed at how frequently you get requests for "please take my posts down" or afterwards people go "please delete everything I had on the site". People think just because it's hidden from view it somehow goes away forever.. nevermind all the different caches, bots, etc that have scraped it long ago.

    When people have an expectation of 'oh I can just remove it' they tend to react without thinking of the consequences.

    #158 7 years ago
    Quoted from robin:

    I don't think a publicly viewable edit log is a good idea. However, the idea to log post edits is interesting. It could work as a moderation tool. That way the mod team can spot the bad apples and send out warnings to users with questionable editing behaviour. We could even use it to restore posts in case of a user meltdown, a user error or even a site error.

    post history has been a feature of vbulletin and xenforo for quite some time. Very useful.. you get a version history and a diff view between versions.

    #159 7 years ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    You'd be amazed at how frequently you get requests for "please take my posts down" or afterwards people go "please delete everything I had on the site".

    So MFing true.

    #160 7 years ago

    I know too. I have helped admin a very large internet form back in the day. And until recently it was easy to ignore requests like that. But now the 'Right to be forgotten' is law in many places, even seen as a fundamental human right

    I understand it may be controversial, but it's not a new argument.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_be_forgotten

    #161 7 years ago
    Quoted from Wizcat:

    I know too. I have helped admin a very large internet form back in the day. And until recently it was easy to ignore requests like that. But now the 'Right to be forgotten' is law in many places, even seen as a fundamental human right

    I understand it may be controversial, but it's not a new argument.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_be_forgotten

    I have been following the news surrounding this European law too. I'm not sure if this law really applies if you are, for instance, "Wizcat" somewhere from Lancashire, England. In other words, I think this only applies if you are publicly identifiable? For example, Facebook requires you to sign up with your real name and almost everyone I know does that. This is scary because you are identifiable by name and if that's not enough, this can even be confirmed by checking other details like your school, city, friends and who knows what other info they got you submitting to them.

    In most cases if people decide to leave the site and delete all their content, they do it in an quitting rage. I've only seen this happen 5-10 times in the past 10 years because of either a fight in the forum or a dispute with the moderation.

    I'm much more worried about people being able to change what they said in a way that is not easily detectable but that could have implications for the integrity of the entire forum. Read back on the discussion we had several years ago about the deleting of content by me or moderators. We use to do this for a while until the community pointed out to us the downsides of that. Our policy is now to never delete stuff (except of course in severe situations or if a moderator announced beforehand in a thread that OT posts will be removed).

    -3
    #162 7 years ago

    Someone posted this https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/wtb-used-plasma-dmd-in-perfect-condition
    ...as an example of why this lockdown is required

    I would argue the opposite. Its an example of a user who wanted to delete his thread, but in frustration at the restriction was forced to delete the content instead.

    Also, regarding non-personal information and 'the right to be forgotten'. I'd argue that it is applicable here. Anyone with 20 minutes to spare on Google can probably sleuth my real name, and from that find my Facebook and so on.

    Policy change like this strikes me as evil. Don't be evil Robin.

    #163 7 years ago
    Quoted from Wizcat:

    Policy change like this strikes me as evil. Don't be evil Robin.

    I hardly think that Robin is being evil.

    Many forums allow you 15 minutes to review your post for spelling/grammar/content and then it becomes permanent. Every time you edit, the clock resets on your 15 minutes.

    If you edit after the 15 minutes, your new info is added below your old post content.

    This keeps everybody honest, not evil.

    #164 7 years ago

    One thing that may help greatly with the edit issue (not the bigger discussion) is a "preview" button.

    Many other forums I visit have this feature and it is really nice for seeing your post before it posts for spelling checks/grammar and also it seems to helps with that small cooling off period where people take that half second to reflect and maybe edit out something they don't really want to put in the public eye.

    #165 7 years ago
    Quoted from Wizcat:

    Policy change like this strikes me as evil. Don't be evil Robin.

    "evil" ???

    That's a pretty heavy word to toss around. When I think about "evil", people like Jeffrey Dahmer or the Sandy Hook Elementary shooter come to mind. Heck, even someone like Bernie Madoff could accurately be described as "evil". Robin, on the other hand, is just trying to run a website, and he's doing a damn fine job at that.

    #166 7 years ago
    Quoted from Wizcat:

    Someone posted this https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/wtb-used-plasma-dmd-in-perfect-condition
    ...as an example of why this lockdown is required
    I would argue the opposite. Its an example of a user who wanted to delete his thread, but in frustration at the restriction was forced to delete the content instead.
    Also, regarding non-personal information and 'the right to be forgotten'. I'd argue that it is applicable here. Anyone with 20 minutes to spare on Google can probably sleuth my real name, and from that find my Facebook and so on.
    Policy change like this strikes me as evil. Don't be evil Robin.

    Hilarious!! LMAO!!! I am dying here. Adjusting the ability to edit your posts makes Robin EVIL. OMG that is sooo funny I am frikkin falling over. Pinside ROCKS with this stuff. Bring back HOP!

    #167 7 years ago

    Robin...It's your site. Do what you feel is right. Those poo poo heads will get over it....

    #168 7 years ago

    lol, the evil was definitely tongue in cheek. Like Dr Evil evil. Sorry that didn't come across.

    #169 7 years ago

    I believe this is a nudge at the well known Google corporate mantra of "Don't Be Evil"... which was a jab at the interpretation of Microsoft's strategies.

    1 week later
    #170 7 years ago
    Quoted from robin:

    Well, nothing is set in stone yet. This thread clearly illustrates that the issue deserves a well thought out solution.
    ...
    Again, for now the limits are as follows:
    New Pinside users
    Opening post: editable for 2 days
    Normal post: editable for 8 hours
    Regular Pinside users (you become a regular based on karma / time you are a member)
    Opening post: forever editable
    Normal post: editable for a year

    Is this settled?

    Are you done making changes for now?

    Should this subject, or a new one, be a sticky, to inform people of the changes?

    #171 7 years ago

    It's a bit ironic that the original post would benefit from an edit to reflect the latest proposed policy. It would make things much more clear to people who are only just arriving to this thread, so they don't have to read every post (or every post by robin, as I did) to find out what the latest outcome is. I'd recommend including the latest proposal above the original, and then keep the original post below it for posterity.

    Thank you!

    Quoted from robin:

    We have a new policy for editing of old posts and, more specifically, the time frame in which you are allowed to do so.
    The reason for this is that we are seeing a lot of people editing old posts, topicstarts, topic titles and emptying them. We are sometimes seeing topics where all content from a user has been stripped out, leaving an undecipherable mess that no longer has value to the site. This is not only bad for the site but it could potentially allow bad people to cover their tracks.
    So what are the new limits? Note that these are still subject to change:
    Site staff (like moderators) - Can edit *all* posts, forever
    Regular users - Can edit their own posts for 4 hours
    New users - Can edit their own posts for 1 hour
    Regular users can edit their opening posts for 24 hours.

    #172 7 years ago

    Sorry, no it isn't. I just had more important things to do

    Quoted from Mocean:

    I'd recommend including the latest proposal above the original, and then keep the original post below it for posterity.

    Apologies if things were made unclear, I didn't expect this discussion and therefore the decision was postponed until I get a change to talk to some more people about it. I will put the current limits in the Opening Post.

    Screen Shot 2014-08-11 at 09.27.29.png
    #173 7 years ago

    Did you buy an Amazon Avengers?

    #174 7 years ago

    Screenshot what?

    #175 7 years ago

    Haha oops, the screenshot got in there by accident as I was working on the uploader. Sorry for the confusion!

    #176 7 years ago

    Good thing you can go back and edit it. Keep it in, take it out and add a note or just remove it as inconsequential. Tbe point is that as a member it is your choice. Although opinions are not being solicited, I'll give mine.

    If the move to change policy was instituted because of a few people deleting their post, it should be forbidden to do so in the site rules, but not necesarily restricted by technology. If someone deletes important message content, anyone else can report it with the report thread button already in place First time you get a warning, second time a six month ban and third is death. Of couse these penalties would only apply after discussion with a moderator and if malicious intent by poster. I see no reason to further restrict exiting 99.9 percent of user base. This community is pretty good about remembering stuff and sleuthing details on every hot story.

    1 week later
    #177 7 years ago

    It's for this type of people too:

    A thread on a forum with the following characters
    a user,
    a troll,
    a victim,

    A user post
    A troll baits
    A victim bites on troll bait
    A troll starts trolling
    A victim gets angry says bad things
    A troll quotes a victim and edits troll post
    A user reports the troll and victim
    A troll reports just a victims post
    A victim reports just a troll's post

    Troll edits all post to look nice...
    Victim gets into minor trouble, might pack up his/her shiny pinballs and goes home
    Troll chortles and sharpens his/her nails looking for more blood

    Post edited by JSmith: clarity-

    There are 177 posts in this topic. You are on page 4 of 4.

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