I agree on being overated for some things, and on CC, absolutely. On MB, only the ruleset is it’s biggest Achilles heal. Thematically, I give both CC and MB similar marks... for the theme, the toys and the shots and the artwork all fit and are very congruent. I think CC hit every thematic note from the western genre. What is missing is just what does one expect will happen in the shootout at the OK coral? Massive wizard mode multiball and jackpots? CC has no reveal appeal. Did anyone know what Monsters of Rock was going to be?!? Just what was a Monster Bash? We kinda get it, but did anyone wonder if there was an interesting Bart mode buried at the end? Not so much. I think Champion Pub had this same reveal appeal letdown when the guy turns around and it is the same fighter with a different name, it kind of ruined the ride.

Well this was a surprise.

Surprised in what way?

That you bothered to review it, and hadn’t reached out to get specific details or anything. I guess.

Hey man we thought you did an amazing job finishing off the code. We had a Continued in our possession and thought it warranted a review. We don’t normally reach out to any one prior to a review. It’s a review. The way we feel about certain aspects of a pin from a players perspective. Sorry if we missed any thing you would want added. We tried to give a finer scrolling rundown of everything included.

So apparently I sound like an abrasive asshat all the time, no matter what my actual intent. I’m not bothered that you reviewed it, or about anything you said. You generally said very nice things, so thanks for that. Of course I wouldn’t expect you to reach out to the creators of most things you review, but ccc is a special case, and I’m pretty accessible. Since there seemed to be some things about it that you weren’t certain on, I was just suggesting that you could have asked about any of those types of details beforehand. Like the bit about Betty Bart. She was always on the back glass, what I did was add her to the game.

Anyway, carry on.

Would have been nice to hear from you Ep on CCC, no doubt.

Still would as a game I'd like to have. What else is there to say?

@epthegeek, Seems to me this is the right time and place to chime in with any pertinent and interesting info you could share on your adventure of creating CCC, and let us pinheads discuss it with you. I know I would have a lot of questions. Thanks for finishing CC, and giving it a better final polish. You turned a wood chopper into a playable machine, and thats not an easy task.

You can often sound pissy.

What is the status of buying the CCC upgrade - is it available or not? What is the cost to convert a CC? If CGC releases CCr, it won’t be running in PROC, so it won’t be possible to convert - right?

I didn’t think you sounded abrasive. Just disappointed or frustrated. I was confused about the back glass. I couldn’t remember which way it was. And hopefully I expressed that in the video.

Eric I agree with bubblehead. That’s what this forum is about. We most certainly welcome input and any thing you can share about what you did with the code!

Cactus canyon is a very interested game and I definitely think it’s next, it won’t use any of the cactus canyon continued software, the cool thing is that the guys that wrote the software for the game works at cgc;so I’m sure he will get to finish it the way it was intended to be which could be pretty cool and there a lots of cool upgrades they could do as well if they do get him to finish the software and we get bionic bart then I’m in all the way; there build quality is second to none and just jaw droppingly great

I agree that CC is very likely to be next. I think it's going to be a much tougher sale though then the first three. The demand for this game is much lower and the market is likely to be even more saturated at that time. I'm hoping that CGC releases and original title soon and just starts using the remakes for some fillers to keep the line busy. They are out of the 3 sure bets for remakes now so it's time to start paving their own path. Doesn't mean the remakes won't continue to be successful, I just don't see them selling several thousand of any of the others.

As for the software, CC really isn't worth owning, certainly not for the price. CCC made it into a fun game and something that both collectors and players could enjoy. There's a ton of extra code there though so CGC will have it's work cut out if they plan on providing an equal product to CCC, and it will need to be at least that good to sell or stay in collections.

who's the guy, is it Adam Rhine? How do you know this?

great to know

Greg is that cabinet door repair going to delay your Munsters purchase?

CCC, the software, is free. Several people have set it up to run themselves without my involvement, and that's awesome. I have on occasion built very nice computer/hardware systems for people to run it on their own machines.

The cost varies. The hard costs are: The PROC board, a computer of some type to run the software, and something to make the sound work (because it comes from the computer) -- but there are a multitude of options for the last 2 things. If you rig it up yourself it can be done on the cheap, it just takes some technical know-how.

I don't know what CGC's plans are, but the one thing I can tell you is that my project isn't compatible with their new hardware system that they have used for the first 3 games. So, if CC is built using their standard system, it wouldn't be able to run the thing that I made.

Based on what I can remember from the episode, the things I'd add in are:

- The sticker for the backglass was made by some other pinsider who liked the project. He made a batch of them for other people, but I didn't have a hand in that at all. I'm sure at least a few other people made their own, too.

- Marshall Multiball is a thing I added. In the base game, advancing rank just makes the Quickdraws worth more points. It's got it's own rules for points, but they're not very well communicated. I posted the full breakdown in the CCC project thread over here: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/cactus-canyon-p-roc-project/page/25#post-3654628 (post 1204 if the link doesn't work as intended) Maybe I should add a way to play a 4 player, 3 ball game of just Marshall pinball. HMMM.

- One most people don't realize on the audio end is that I got in touch with the voice actor who did the 'Mayor' voice (thanks to a tip from someone on the PROC forums) and commissioned him to record a bunch of new audio to add to the game. They blend right in since it's the same guy, so people assume it was stuff I found in the ROMs that didn't get used. That assumption is true for Bionic Bart, though.

Matt Coriale works at CGC? There have been efforts made over the years to try to get Matt to finish off the game (mostly before I touched it) and that never came to be for various reasons.

@epthegeek, what was your background in coding going into the project? How much time on average were you spending a week on CC? Was implementing existing game code into the project a big portion of your time? Did you complete the original ruleset and then add new modes/code or did you do it simultaneously? Any idea on how many CC have been converted to CCC? Which mech was the hardest to code for? What ideas did you try but ultimately got scrapped and why? Did this satisfy any desire to make your own original titled game, and what advice would you give someone thinking of reworking a title using a P-ROC, like on a Pinbot, or DP’s Bride 2.0, or possibly a Roller Games?

I had a little exposure to programming before trying this thing but I was not 'software developer'; classes in high school, some PHP stuff for various web experiments, and a lot of shell scripting. The most important bit is understanding the logic part - you can learn the language, whatever that may be, but if the logic stuff is hard for you to get your head around it's a much steeper hill to climb.

I never really paid attention to the specific hours. I'd just work on it whenever I could. It's a ton of time, but it was over a few years.

Recreating what the game used to do was the first thing I did, to the best of my ability. If I couldn't get the machine to behave at least like the original did as far as lighting, audio and display, then I wasn't going to bother with the rest. Once I was happy with how that looked, then I started working on what I could do to finish things off and add things.

No clue. Since people can set it up themselves, and there's at least the one guy in germany selling his own version, I have no way to know.

I guess the train was the biggest problem. It runs on a string based slipper clutch sort of system. What I mean is, the movement of the train is driven by a loop of string with a spring for tension that wraps around a gear wheel. If the train gets stuck, the wheel just turns inside the string so it doesn't damage the motor/gears. Depending on condition of the track/string the train can move at different speeds on different machines, which makes having the train end up at the far end of the track at (or near) the 30 second mark problematic. So when the machine starts, it moves the train forward at a set speed for a set time, then backwards to the 'home' switch and the code checks to see how many times the opto-wheel switch triggered to guage how far the train moved and adjust the speed accordingly. All of which is made more annoying by the fact that the train is entirely ornamental. It doesn't "do" anything. There's no switch at the far end for when the train arrives, it doesn't know if the ball has passed through it. It's just a moving decoration. Most of the rest of them are just a switch and a coil (bad guy, drop targets, etc).

This far after the fact, I can't really think of anything that I worked on more than just a "ooh, how about (thing)" that didn't end up getting added. There probably were things, but I don't remember what got left behind any more.

No, it's not like making an original game, so it's a very different itch to scratch. If you are making an original game you'd have control over the playfield, and the inserts and how things are labelled. That is all stuff you just have to work with on an existing game. You can't just use something labelled for one thing as something else and expect anybody to understand what's going on. For the most part anyway.

The nice thing about using a P-ROC to interface with an existing game is that it's reversible. You can get the board, hook things up, experiment, and if you're not happy with the results, you can put it back to what it was. No harm, no foul. So I'd encourage anybody that thinks it sounds like a fun project to try to give it a shot. With the older games (pinbot/rollergames) there's a little more involved if you want to use the original segment displays - but if you upgrade to a LCD display like BOP2 that's not an issue.

You have to be prepared for the amount of work that it is. Especially if you're working on it alone. That's not how it's done in the real pinball companies, but on a hobby project you're the audio guy, the display guy, and the programmer. All of those things are hard and take a lot of time. If you really want to make something that is a fully polished dynamic game, you have to tackle all that stuff.

@epthegeek, first off, I want to give you a big round of applause, CCC was a labor (of love) and is well recieved by everyone I know who has played both versions of the code.

Here is a little bit of who Bublehead is... and why I am so interested in your project.
I was in the Visual Pinball scene back when they first married VPinMAME to visual pinball and I was the developer responsible for making the AFM saucer and wiggly aliens work, making the prototype toys for the Ferris wheel in Cyclone, the fishing reel in Fishtales, as well as creating and making the crane toy work in Junk Yard, I animated and got the TRex working in JP. I completely developed the Jackbot title, doing everything from playfield layout and all graphics, animated the Visor with all ball lock combinations and visor flashers that worked. I did the first version of a working rotating BOP head toy as well. I own both Pinbot and Bride, I have built my own virtual pinball machine using an old Roller Games cabinet, and I am a software developer for a large national bank.

I have always wanted to either do my own take on Bride 2.0, my own original title, or retheme Roller Games and make it worth actually owning.

Thanks for your answers, and again thank you for all that free love you gave CC, you truly are a pinball hero and a great pinball resource in my book.

BH

The whole lazy susan breaking segment had my wife and l cracking up. Please keep all of this stuff in your future videos no matter how popular you guys get. Those are the best parts.

It keeps it all relatable. As soon as I heard the boom I knew it had something to do with the kiddos. Us Dad's just have that sense. Love Greg being all sweet making sure all was well and then turning to angry Dad. Halarious

Ok, so if you guys are having issues putting out a show with non-pin content in it that might be under appreciated, may I suggest two edits published weekly... the family friendly monetized version, and then the unmonetized “talks like a sailor” version where you leave in all the swearing and the non-pinball content... let the viewer decide which version they prefer, and then, when you figure out we are all watching the “dirty” version and the views of the clean version fall off, you can get back to swearing like sailors again, post more chipmunk tangents, let me laugh my ass off (ok maybe I was a little wasted when I was watching that episode) and not worry about it.

Gotta keep it somewhat family friendly imo because people have kids and stuff. Some things are ok but some things obviously wouldnt be. I cuss as much or more than most people but im actually trying to dial it back a little instead of increasing it.

@who-dey, I enjoy my entertainment mostly uncensored, even though “creative” bleeping of profanity has at times been funny as well... I enjoy it when someone gets bleeped on a non profane word and then the speaker breaks the 4th wall with the censor. But what does it hurt to have a link to both versions? I most assuredly would not let my children poke around on Pinside... unless I was trying to fuck them up on purpose... not certain I would consider Pinside or SDTM as anywhere close to family friendly to say the least. Entertaining, though, absolutely.

Whodey and bubblehead in the same thread. 50 more posts by the morning!

@gunnut40, lol... only if you help- it looks like we are down to 48 more posts before morning...

I am not for censorship of any kind Greg and Zach can say anything that they want to, they are free to do that. I just dont think that Zach wants to have 2 versions of his show on youtube. I like comedy alot and i think its funny when they disagree and get these weird facial expressions and stuff but if they started calling each other stupid MF'rs constantly or using the R word and stuff like that they would lose some viewers in my opinion. Its up to them to decide if they want to go there, im guessing they don't and im also guessing that even off camera that they are decent well mannered people for the most part.

I dont care what they do because i dont have any small kids running around but if i did i think i probably would care, thats the only point that i am making. They dont have to be choir boys but theres also lines that they probably don't want to cross also. Thats just my guess and i cant speak for them, maybe im totally wrong who knows?

47

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@zmeny, that comedy gold is what I am interested in. I enjoy the show and it reminds me of sitting in our rooms at an event, be it CAX, or pin expo, and a bunch of us pinheads shooting the pinball breeze, where any and all things are on the table and said. And yes, sometimes that gold is locked inside a chunk of politically incorrect quartz and no amount of peer pressure is going to make you crack and unearth those gems... maybe live streaming is what we need?

45

I found those 1980's gym shorts in your unboxing video rather distasteful....

44

Here is the point i guess that i am trying to make. If it were me in their shoes i wouldn't say anything that other people's kids might hear that i wouldn't say in front of my own kids. Thats the approach that i would personally take because the fact is some people have kids that are running around the house.

I'm not trying to sound like a saint here either so don't take it that way because if its just me hanging around my friends i say alot of pretty bad things believe me, especially if im drinking. With that being said though i also have some friends that are very straight laced and they don't like hearing bad talk so i also am respectful to them and i wont talk bad around them. Bottom line is i am respectful when i need to be or i at least try to be.

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wont-somebody-please-think-of-the-children (resized).jpg

Hey good show guys, I don't know if could've scored this game less than an A but I guess you guys are helluva a lot more objective than me when it comes to this game. it's also good to know I'm not the only one pining for a Western theme pin. I had started a topic on that subject hoping to inspire one of the manufacturers earlier. Who knows maybe we can get a Magnificent Seven pin one day..

41

I don’t care if you boys swear like sons of bitches, just keep pumping out the podcasts. When they stop is when I get angry and hear voices in my head. And you don’t want me listening to those bastards.

The show’s video editing has recently improved, starting with Deadpool episode. Have an idea for a new show segment called put your shirt on. You can make up the rules of the contest. But each episode you pick a winner and read their answer and their name and promise to send them a SDTM t-shirt.

Cue - Jeff Teolis recording of Pinside Petey saying,”Put your shirt on and Fuck Off! Then you read next weeks question / riddle.

39

You screwed the counter up. You should have been post #40.

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Didn’t see another 41. I see 42 and then my 41. Where’s the other “41”. ? Just how difficult has this burden become? Now we need rules. Doesn’t anybody around here care about the rules?

37

Kvan forgot to number his post. Shame on you Kvan!

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Ok, I got to ask, just to stay simply near on topic, have you guys ever done a “stranded island” episode on which pinball machine would you like to see wash up in a cargo container with solar panels, a Tesla home battery, and a single machine either nib or vintage strapped to a palet?

I really wouldn’t chime in here except this counter isn’t moving fast enough to get it to 0 by tomorrow.

35

Its time for another faceoff episode - peeling back the reskins (hoping Greg wins and slaps the smile off Zach’s face. oh boy) This battle would take place on a Beatles OR Primus pin.

These won’t be out in number until the end of Dec so better schedule this for end of Jan. No need to buy one. Find one in the wild or a private collection and play it enough to learn the game. Then go back and film the episode from that location.

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Greg's face is still red and sore. I don't see him doing another face off ever.

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irrelevant! The people demand it and there are consequences. Best of three and amp the show to an 11!

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Side note - my internet went out today for 3 hours and I though my wife and kids were going to have a panic attack. What the hell is the world coming to?

Also, why is it that I am always late to the cool party. Years ago vinyl records were easy to find in near mint condition for cheap - now that I get into vinyl you can't find anything good at goodwill, yard sales, or record stores unless you pay way more than you used to. Same goes for pinball - I got into this around 4 years ago when prices are at the highest they have ever been and climbing. When I see the machines people were getting 10 years ago - and how much they got them for I can't believe it.

Oh and don't get me started on my latest love about 2 years ago - bourbon. FML