Quoted from jgentry:

I'm with you on the shots being rated a little high. There's just not enough of them. Although the orbits are fantastic.
Completely against you on the code. It's simple but well done. Add in co-op modes, an awesome custom sound track, inlane saves, etc, and I think it hits on all the right levels.
Against you again on toys/innovation. The lock is new to pinball and is very innovative. You talking about cost of mechs shows that you dont know much about the cost of mechs. You could build every stern pro cheaper then tna. The game is loaded with innovation. From the speaker system, multiple display bg, multiplayer code, custom cabinet design, lighting, in lane saves, in line drops that reveal a scoop, etc.
All games get stale, every last F'ing one of them. Doesn't matter how world under glass or grail they are.

And yet if I cared enough to rate games my top 2 would be ACDC and Flash Gordon. So how can that possibly be if 10 million lines of code and 10+ shots are needed to make a good game?

Quoted from delt31:

I agree with you on the orbits in that they are definitely a great shot to hit and super smooth. I'm not sure I would call out a smooth orbit though as a highlight. We used to just call them orbits before TnA was released. If it wasn't smooth it would be called out as a problem ; ).
Your comment about not knowing how much mechs cost...... remind me - how much do three drop targets cost along with the underlying mech to drop the target? Compare that to any toy that is built custom for these machines like the ship on Pirates. Reply back with the simple math difference on that one and then remind me about not knowing how much mechs cost. PROTIP....I tried searching jjp ship mech on pinball life and it came up with no results! Funny - I was able to find the drop targets and mech used in TnA. That could be the first issue. Damn these custom built toys!
As for total cost of Stern pros vs TnA - I didn't mention that in my post but interesting question. I do think that 6k isn't too bad. Real backglass, amazing sound system, well built cab, LCD screen (which just needs to be adjusted for contrast) - I didn't really think it's over priced at all. In fact when they become readily available, this will be 4-5k used no question which would be the sweet spot.

Quoted from jgentry:

I agree they are going to drop in price. I think around $5200 or so will be the going rate.
You cant just go buy any custom toy for most games. If you can most are controlled by the game maker. Potc is a poor example as it just started to ship (after another decade delay) and jjp will not have parts listed available for it yet. It also costs over 3k more so you had better be getting a lot more stuff in it. A better example would be sparky or the xmen wolverine that you can currently buy and actually compare.

Quoted from delt31:

I agree. You can't go buy these custom toys which to me jumps the value even higher. I hear your point - I just don't value generic pinball parts being put together to create a toy that is an A+.

Quoted from jgentry:

I can understand that, I think the innovation being grouped with toys led to that though.

Quoted from delt31:

this will be 4-5k used no question which would be the sweet spot.

Quoted from Whysnow:

Please lets put some money on this. When is readily available? When is TNA going to sell for 4k?
Pick a date and lets set a dollar amount.
They have delivered 250 out of the 450 sold. likely 50% of the total production. Likely hit final call sometime in the next 12 months.
Just tell me the date when TNA will be readily available for 4-5k and I am in.

Quoted from delt31:

Btw one poster mentioned people are upset etc - for me I don't feel upset at all. That's too dramatic. We all feel passionate about pinball which leads to interesting discussions of opinions which makes this thread worthwhile. I'm just offering my difference in opinion....

Quoted from Whysnow:

I think your entire opinion is couched in the fact that you dont like anything but modern layout ramp/toy games.
You have never even owned a game built prior to 1990 which to me shows you have little value for one of, if not the best design eras of pinball, early solid states.
Nothing wrong with that, but just pointing out that it would be similar to a 2 page review from a wine critic that only specialized on Cali wine, but talking on an AUS vineyard. Your pallet is very limited in the larger pinball picture so that is to be expected based on your tastes.
TNA is well liked by so many for good reason. You dont have to like it, but for me personally your self limited exposure to mainly games from 1992 onwards shows a limited perspective when putting together a through review.

Quoted from delt31:

Yeah let's put some money of this whysnow!!! Cool!! Maybe we can trade pogs after that!
I think you have a lot of good input and information but sometimes you need to take more time to read and digest before responding. I'm talking about IN THE USED MARKET. This won't be for some time b/c Spooky is playing the nintendo angle which is smart - don't flood the market and make the game desirable simply b/c it can't be found easily.
Once this goes away - I believe the game will sell for 4-5k used. I don't believe that will happen soon though based on the strategy I mentioned above.

Quoted from delt31:

That's a fair point in that I don't delve into the older pins. Probably b/c I'm in that 30-40 bucket and didn't grow up with those. What I do appreciate is that pins have evolved to be so much more now - I'm not sure I would grade the older ones on the same scale....TnA is not an old game.
Just to be clear - I like the pin. I had fun with it. I actually gave it a B. Not sure how you concluded I don't like it (other than my critiques - but all games have critiques).

Quoted from Whysnow:

so you dont have a specific date/time frame when I can supposedly buy a TNA for 4k?
just some wide opened idea that happens to be after you trade yours away for a premium over original MSRP? ok, cool
When you want to pick a date of "readily available and used market of 4k" let me know. I would think with 250 out the door and likely at 450 delivered by April 2019, that would be a reasonable date to pick for when your Nintendo idea is complete?
nice bottle of bourbon to the winner?
Lets get specific to make it clear. If 5 TNA (1% of the likely production) have sold for $4500 (ill split the difference on your wild numbers) or less by April 2019 then I owe you a nice ($50 plus) bottle.
If they have not, then you own me.
Loser to deliver bottle to winner at one of the big pinball shows and we crack it open for some good times and pinball games of the winners choosing (to expose the other to what they like and why)

Quoted from Whysnow:

so you dont have a specific date/time frame when I can supposedly buy a TNA for 4k?
just some wide opened idea that happens to be after you trade yours away for a premium over original MSRP? ok, cool
When you want to pick a date of "readily available and used market of 4k" let me know. I would think with 250 out the door and likely at 450 delivered by April 2019, that would be a reasonable date to pick for when your Nintendo idea is complete?
nice bottle of bourbon to the winner?
Lets get specific to make it clear. If 5 TNA (1% of the likely production) have sold for $4500 (ill split the difference on your wild numbers) or less by April 2019 then I owe you a nice ($50 plus) bottle.
If they have not, then you own me.
Loser to deliver bottle to winner at one of the big pinball shows and we crack it open for some good times and pinball games of the winners choosing (to expose the other to what they like and why)

Quoted from jgentry:

I would recommend at some point trying to get some time with a few friends on a game like Fathom, EBD, Centaur, Flash Gordon, etc. Find someone that has good working clean ones and I think you might be surprised how much they can grow on you. Modern games with all kinds of stuff are great, sometimes just the simplicity of you against pops, drops, targets with the only real goal of a better score is great. I don't always play my older games but they certainly have their place and there are many times that I only play them and not my modern games. They are not from my era either and there was I time I thought they were beyond boring.
You may never like them, but a lot of people grow to like them the longer they are in the hobby.

Quoted from delt31:

I agree with you 100% here - Centaur, Fathom and even Xenon all seem interesting. They're on my list for the reasons you mentioned. I definitely think older games can be fun.

Quoted from delt31:

I never said they would ALL be used at 4k. You're like CNN - picking and choosing and putting together sentences. I said the RANGE of 4-5k. I believe that will happen. Do I know for sure it will? No. Do I know the timeframe? I guess 2020? Do I have any interest in making a bet with a grown man like we're in 3rd grade - definitely not.
Let me make this easy for you and your ego. You're right. This game will never drop below 6k b/c it's awesome.

Quoted from delt31:

Let me make this easy for you and your ego. You're right. This game will never drop below 6k b/c it's awesome.

Quoted from chuckwurt:

Feel free to skip Xenon.

Quoted from delt31:

I never said they would ALL be used at 4k. You're like CNN - picking and choosing and putting together sentences. I said the RANGE of 4-5k. I believe that will happen. Do I know for sure it will? No. Do I know the timeframe? I guess 2020? Do I have any interest in making a bet with a grown man like we're in 3rd grade - definitely not.
Let me make this easy for you and your ego. You're right. This game will never drop below 6k b/c it's awesome.

Quoted from jgentry:

You take that back, I F'ing love Xenon. One of the coolest looking games ever. So simple but yet a blast to play if its setup steep and in good shape. If it's slow and sloppy then it's a snooze fest.

Quoted from jgentry:

I wouldn't be surprised if a few desperate for cash sellers sell on below 5K in the next few years. If new games keep getting pumped out and people keep replacing their current games to get one the market will slow down. Catch a slow spell when you happen to list one and the seller needs cash now and it will happen.
While many people hate RZ I actually like the game. I had one of the last LE's and had a friend that thought he had to have it. When it shipped he offered me $8500 for it NIB and I told him to come get it. I wasn't looking to sell it but for $2300 profit I just bought another one and put that money towards another game. If he went to sell that game he'd take close to a 4K loss on it now. Just goes to show how things can go from insanely in demand to an after thought.

Quoted from Whysnow:

lol, I was trying to have a fun bet as I point out your pretty big exclamation that once readily available they are going to be selling for 33% less on the secondary. All games drop, but few drop that much. You made an exclamatory statement combined with saying why you dont like the game. I just think you are way off.
This is not a 3rd grade bet. That would end up in you licking the frozen flag pole on recess.
This is for a fun time. You lose and you end up drinking some good spirits and playing some classics while I show you why I like them and what you are missing. I guess the punishment is you have to hang out with me for a few hours, lol.
sometimes bets can be fun and a $50 bottle of booze among guys that spend 6k on pinball machines is not very much in my world of having some fun with it all.
If you change you mind, bet is still open

Quoted from chuckwurt:

The one I had for a year was lightning fast with strong lively pops and a spinner that ripped for days.
Even with the tilt tight, no outlane posts, and it setup to reset the tube value each ball, there is zero reason to do anything but tube shots. Even after you get multiball and have the spinner lit, still just not the fun I can get from a dozen or more other games from the era.
It also has the weirdest bonus advance I’ve ever seen. Interesting, but not fun to go through.

Quoted from delt31:

Yeah it's amazing how much games can drop. I just picked up a Hobbit and can't believe the price you pay for the game you get.
Btw forgot to mention - Greg mentioned you unboxed your TnA and put it out for others to play first? That's really impressive and a stand up move.

Quoted from jgentry:

You are absolutely right, as far as scoring and shot diversity is makes no sense. It's not a good game, I love it anyway for some reason though.

Quoted from jgentry:

How about this. If in 24 months I (8/30/20) I can find 4 proven examples of TNA selling below 5K then you have to be Kenada's guest on his podcast. If I cannot then I will send you a very nice bottle of bourbon?

Quoted from Whysnow:

Just tell me the date when TNA will be readily available for 4-5k and I am in.

Quoted from Whysnow:

Lets get specific to make it clear. If 5 TNA (1% of the likely production) have sold for $4500 (ill split the difference on your wild numbers) or less by April 2019 then I owe you a nice ($50 plus) bottle.
If they have not, then you own me.

Quoted from Knapp_Arcade:

Having said that, I highly doubt that it will ever sell for that little. Think about it, there's going to be less than 500 of these bad boys produced. 500 games is nothing.

Quoted from davijc02:I read enough whysnow posts and I’m not all that interested him hearing him talk for an hour.

Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

I'll take a tna for $4.5k please or gladly pay $6k for a reskinned version. I'd like different colors and new designs on cabinet and translite. A new version would increase sales by bringing a new crowd to the table. Either way would work.

Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

I'll take a tna for $4.5k please or gladly pay $6k for a reskinned version. I'd like different colors and new designs on cabinet and translite. A new version would increase sales by bringing a new crowd to the table. Either way would work.

Quoted from davijc02:

Retheme it to what? Maybe even a better question is why do it at all? It’s selling perfectly fine for the spooky model.
In fact it would be selling even better if they could pump out more units per month. I have to imagine people are going to be turning away from this game just due to how long it will take to get it.
A reskin is a waste of time and resources at this point.

Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

You really can't see the benefit or think it would work out for the good?

Quoted from TheLaw:

Not really. ... How many people are really not buying TNA because of the artwork?

Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

I can account for one lost sale.

Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

I can account for one lost sale. While I like the game, with current art it is worth $4.5k to me. Don't think I will ever find that, so my only hope is to pay near full price. Unless there is a killer art package, I won't pay that premium.
Reactors are cool, and I just want some kind of dark, foreboding artwork. Even a Judge Dredd style package of man vs catastrophe would work. Guess it is too pop for my tastes.

Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

I can account for one lost sale. While I like the game, with current art is only worth $4.5k to me. Don't think I will find that so my only hope is to pay full price. But unless there is a killer art package, I won't pay that much premium.
Reactors are cool, and I just want some kind of dark, foreboding artwork. Even a Judge Dredd style package of man vs catastrophe would work. Guess it is too pop for my tastes.

Quoted from gliebig:

What if it came in a weiner mobile shaped cabinet?

Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

No the cabinet shape is fine.

Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

No the cabinet shape is fine. I like retro 80's cabinets with wide side rails.

Quoted from delt31:

Where do I begin with this review.....let me first start off by saying that I enjoyed the content as always and even the review itself. That said, I very much disagree with ratings. Not as much as Houdini but I just couldn't believe A- for shots and layout? A+ for code or worse TOYS and Innovation!!!??? I actually looked at my TnA again to make sure I didn't miss a separate pf!
I think we all agree that the music is incredible. It might be the best music in any pinball to date. Amazing sound system. It's that good. Theme is up to the individual - not going to argue there. I hate IMDN, people love it. I love TNA's 80s vibe with great color and art - sure....move on
Here's where things get interesting but before I begin, reminder - I've owned this pin for a few months. I put some good time on it and enjoyed a lot but ultimately - waaaaaay too linear for single owner use which is why I ultimately sold it. Many folks ask that question - many answer no it will never get old. Reality check - it def could get old. See below:
Shots and Layout: If you want to continue enjoying this game, don't make the same mistake I did and watch Bowen on youtube blow this game up. Now I know everyone says that's b/c he's so good but he made me aware of the games downfall - SHORT PLUNGE. Damn that short plunge b/c even someone as bad as me can almost consistently get MB but just doing short plung, bounce over to right flipper, trap ball and hit backhand. Rinse and repeat. There goes your strategy out the door b/c who isn't taking MB all day?
THE SCOOP - oh the scoop. Def broken. I made a similar comment on the owners thread and took all the advice given (even bending it forward) - doesn't work. Backhands shouldn't be the answer - mine loved the backhand and said no soup for you on the forehand. Even when it was 100% lined up - it rejected. It's such an important shot - very disappointing to see that.
Code: This goes well with the shots and layout. It's very simple and very straight forward. The roots of this game being homebrew are clearly there. To give a game that is absolutely positively one of if not the most linear game on the planet an A+ for code is absolutely mind blowing. What are we rewarding here? Yes it's challenging. Yes I've only made it to reactor 6 but not b/c of anything but absolute chaos due to the standups and pop (which btw - I do love that damn pop) - I'm not sure it's skill or luck to truly get through the game. When you drain out, it's back to doing the same thing over and over. Zach talks about chopping wood games like MET and how he can't get past that - TnA literally is the definition of chopping wood.
Here's the main point - you do the same thing over and over again to move on to the next reactor. There is no alternative goal - it's literally the same thing again and again. Yes - it's impressive that "again and again" can be this fun. That's why I bought it and enjoyed it a lot at first but to say it's an A+ for code? Whaaaat? Again code is the games complexity - what it requires the player to experience and work through right?
Toys and Innovation - I'm not sure what was a bigger surprise - code or this being rated A+. Again - PERFECT score for toys? What toys? The drop targets lined behind each other in the top right corner? The use of slings in the top middle? To me these are just an illustration of the creator's ability to leverage cheaper materials and make them into something interesting b/c again - homebrew roots. He didn't have the funds or assets that JJP has so he had to make do. I agree that he did an excellent job with what he had - in fact I think Scott is an absolute genius for creating so much out of so little but does that equal a rotating ship that's sculpted to perfection in Pirates, or hologram like images, and drones, and magnets and the list goes on in DI or 10 other games that have real toys? I know it's more than just the physical toy but how it interacts in the game but I'm sorry three drop targets that hold the ball is not an A+. It's a ball lock that uses standard run of the mill parts available on any machine. Nothing custom about it.
Speaking of, crediting inlanes and outlanes that provide "something" to the player if the balls hits their switch (like it does in literally every game) is not A+ innovation. Again - they are cool in their own way but A+?
Finally - I want to revisit something Greg mentioned early on. The game gets stale. I think that about summarizes my confusion on how this game can be rated so high if it gets stale. I completely agree - it does get stale. That again and again strategy just burns out in a single own home like mine.
Gentlemen - as always LOVE the product and I know you appreciate agreements and disagreements so nothing but respect on this one. Just thought I would provide my input on the review. For me - this game is good. Solid B. It's just the A's especially A+ and the categories in which they were given that was surprising. I welcome feedback, others insight and DEFINITELY NOT saying my view here is the correct view. Just throwing in my two cents based on my experience.
Excellent job entertaining as always and look forward to future content!

Quoted from chuckwurt:

Here’s a beef I have with the game. None of my 80s games sit that low. Give me longer legs for the game!

Quoted from gliebig:

What if it came in a weiner mobile shaped cabinet?

Quoted from 27dnast:

Great example of different strokes/different folks. I know you just bought a hobbit ( I think)... for a player like me, that's the kind of game that makes me cry when I get an extra ball. I just can't wait for the game to end. That's not to say it's a game that you won't love...but definitely a game I'd never buy.
What makes the pinball world go 'round.

Quoted from delt31:

Agreed. I will say that I was just like you regarding Hobbit. Have you ever played it in a home environment? That was the big difference for me - plus understanding the new ruleset. I'll eventually sell I'm sure but I now understand what Hobbit fans like about the game. Surprised I even still have it but it's different and engrossing. Talk about a legitimate A candidate for code...

Quoted from delt31:

I agree with you 100% here - Centaur, Fathom and even Xenon all seem interesting. They're on my list for the reasons you mentioned. I definitely think older games can be fun.

Quoted from 27dnast:

water/drop torture .