(Topic ID: 190972)

New Pinball manufactures: Assemble in CHINA!!!


By wantdataeast

2 years ago



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  • Latest reply 2 years ago by Homepin
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    There are 243 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 5.
    -47
    #1 2 years ago

    The reason you are not paying $4500 for your iPhone is because it is build in China, where production cost are minimal. There are even cheaper countries to manufacture in than China.

    What is the VAT tax adding to the cost of Pinball machines built in Britain or The Netherlands?

    I would not be shocked if the $1000-$1500 deposit, that people rush to the front of the line to pay, would entirely pay for the production cost of a pin built in China.

    If the market will bear the prices that Stern gets for Pro, LE and Premiums. There would be a MUCH higher profit potential for a new company.

    MOST importantly, Current new pinball manufacturers seem to be struggling mostly with money for production. So let's forget about profit here for a moment and just consider the lower production cost as a way to actually get the pin produced and in the hands of your customers without excuses about delays.

    17
    #2 2 years ago

    Have you seen this thread?
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/homepin-official-thread-pinball-parts-machine-progress

    Cheaper? Yes. Much cheaper? No.

    Pinball is hard.

    #3 2 years ago

    Another point to remember, with Homepin, is the owner of the company is there at the factory running the show. Time, effort and money needed to get it set up right and running is nothing to sneeze at...

    Doing it remotely, i.e. not having someone or a group there running everything and doing the necessary QC, would be a very foolish move.

    21
    #4 2 years ago

    You've never had to have something made in China - getting them to make a light bulb the way you like it can take months.

    They love to find ways to make the process cheaper for themselves.

    #5 2 years ago

    I'd be surprised if stern didn't order parts and sub-assemblies from china. They just put it all together in the USA, they don't actually make every part in the USA.

    24
    #6 2 years ago

    I have a preference for products made in the USA.

    It's cool that companies like Stern, JJP, and Spooky make pinball machines here while most other gizmos come from China!!

    16
    #7 2 years ago

    I heard plenty of stories from people who were ordering parts in China and ran into problems because the parts didn't meet the standards they were supposed to. Even being present locally in China doesn't guarantee you'll get the product you thought you were ordering. So it may be cheaper on one end, but the time involved is costing too.

    As for the 1000-1500 dollar mark the OP mentioned. I'm pretty sure a company like Stern is able to build games with a bill of material of under $2000, but as they are dealing with a lot of additional costs for housing, personell and desired profit, the days of $3500 games are long gone. Especially since they figured out how much people are willing to spend. Heck, they might even move the entire production to China, import them to USA, sell them locally and I doubt the price would come down.

    #8 2 years ago

    Sending manufacturing jobs to China or anywhere else is almost always an attempt to increase profits for shareholders, not decrease prices.

    Privately held pinball manufacturers have no such pressure, thankfully. But they would still rather increase profits than lower prices I'm sure, when people are willing to pay the current prices!

    15
    #9 2 years ago

    My experience: working with a team 8 hours away time-zone wise (Los Angeles to Wales) is hard enough when both sides not only speak English, but speak "pinball". Trying to remote things to China without being there? Utter fail, I promise that.

    Homepin is trying the other way. Whatever their success ends up being it's clearly been anything but simple and fast.

    #10 2 years ago

    Mike (homepin) has had to redesign EVERY part (incuding some screws) and get them made in China
    there is no imprtation of parts from America or Australia, everything is Chinese made

    #11 2 years ago

    I believe the rising prices for new pins is not a result of BOM but a way to regulate sales.

    Sure Stern could lower prices and sell double the amount but that would take more investment in space and labor. That would make them less flexible if a downturn in the market were to happen.

    As much as I don't like it, the way they are doing it is the smart move.

    #12 2 years ago

    My company is quoting a project in China vs in-house right now. Ironically, the parts are cheaper to make here, making the BOM about $2-3 cheaper. Yes our labor is probably minimally higher, but their price isn't including VAT or shipping costs. I believe the high price is because the vendor is farming most of the parts to outside vendors (adding middleman cost) and simply assembling everything in their factory.

    The only reason we are on the fence is because their tooling is roughly half the cost of US tooling.

    I've worked at companies before where everything was designed in America, but manufactured in China or Mexico.. and believe me, unless you have good management at either you will get crap quality. Being that pinball is really low volume compared to most industries, and the designs are cranked out so quick, and there are SO many parts to keep track of, it would be very hard to remotely assemble them. Like said above, only reason why it will work out for homepin is because the owner lives there and works in the factory every day.

    #13 2 years ago

    Obviously if you are going to have product made in China. You go to the factory often during production. You do not blindly hire a company their to do it for you. Anyone serious about this process would have boots on the ground during production.

    Quality control (including safety) is the most important thing about production.

    #14 2 years ago

    You seem to have a lot of knowledge on this subject. When are you starting a pinball manufacturing company?

    #15 2 years ago

    I had a friend that had home water filtration system manufactured in China. And he had to be carefully and watch the manufacture. If you are not careful here is how it will work:

    -You hire company A to produce 10000 widgets at $1 each
    -They (Unbeknownst to you) hire company B to make them for them at 50 cents each.
    -Then company B hires company C to make them at 25 cents each.

    And the resulting product is crap made with God knows what impurities (lead, mercury... etc). Company A has made 75cents per unit and done nothing.

    If company A knows you are aware of this and will not accept anything but high quality.. then they will bite the bullet and produce to your specification.

    FORGET thinking manufacturing in China is impossible or you will only get bad quality. How good does your iPhone / iPad work? Pretty F'ing good.

    #16 2 years ago

    ungqji6w4bkx (resized).jpg

    #17 2 years ago
    Quoted from ReplayRyan:

    You seem to have a lot of knowledge on this subject. When are you starting a pinball manufacturing company?

    I'll tell you one thing for sure. If had a pinball machine company. I would not be producing the pin in close proximity to where i lived for my convenience. It would be where I got the highest quality finished product at the lowest possible price. For two reasons... to maximize profit and delivery a product that beat the others in the competitor marketplace.

    I damn sure would not be taking $1500 deposits or $8500 full payments... and delivering only excuses to my customers.

    #18 2 years ago

    Let me guess... you don't have smart phone, flat screen TV?
    Newsflash friend... look to your right and left and count 10 things that were produced by one of those children / slaves.

    Rid yourself of every Chinese product that you own... then come back and lecture the world on the evils of outsourcing.

    -6
    #19 2 years ago
    Quoted from NiftyLED:

    You've never had to have something made in China - getting them to make a light bulb the way you like it can take months.
    They love to find ways to make the process cheaper for themselves.

    Interesting that you mention lightbulbs...

    Where do you think 90%+ of the LED's in the pinball marketplace are produced?
    It is not the USA I can tell you that.

    #20 2 years ago
    Quoted from Luckydogg420:

    I'd be surprised if stern didn't order parts and sub-assemblies from china. They just put it all together in the USA, they don't actually make every part in the USA.

    Gary visits China several times a year. Draw your own conclusions from that.

    #21 2 years ago
    Quoted from Allibaster:

    I have a preference for products made in the USA.
    It's cool that companies like Stern, JJP, and Spooky make pinball machines here while most other gizmos come from China!!

    I admire your patriotism, I feel just as passionate about Australia, but in the real word it really doesn't happen like you might like it to. Most things you buy are made or part made or have parts made in countries other than the USA.

    18
    #22 2 years ago

    A note about 'child labour' since it has come up a couple of times.

    My contract with ITV to produce Thunderbirds pinball machines specifically states that I am not, under any circumstances, to employ child labour myself OR allow ANY subcontractor to use child labour.

    This is actually pretty easy in China as nobody is allowed to employ a person under 16 years of age. The inspectors are here almost monthly checking the wages books and ID of every staff member, not only looking for this but also to make sure they are being paid their correct wages and entitlements and that my workers compo and other insurances are paid and all in order.

    The inspectors are always perplexed when they come here because Homepin wages and perks are WAY above the standard workers remuneration. They put it down to me being an easy touch, foreign boss. I think paying well and offering free accommodation including water, gas and electricity keeps my workers happier and that's probably why the staff turnover at Homepin is very low.

    #23 2 years ago
    Quoted from wantdataeast:

    Let me guess... you don't have smart phone, flat screen TV?
    Newsflash friend... look to your right and left and count 10 things that were produced by one of those children / slaves.
    Rid yourself of every Chinese product that you own... then come back and lecture the world on the evils of outsourcing.

    You're the one who's suggesting proud American manufacturing companies move jobs to China, so that you can get cheaper toys?

    16
    #24 2 years ago

    Is there any way we can use coal to make a pinball machine cheaper?

    #25 2 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Is there any way we can use coal to make a pinball machine cheaper?

    Lol! Well put vid.

    #26 2 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Is there any way we can use coal to make a pinball machine cheaper?

    No, but if we make the cabinet out of solar panels they can be self-powered
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-09/turning-trump-s-border-wall-into-a-solar-plant-is-probably-a-bad-idea

    19
    #27 2 years ago
    Quoted from wantdataeast:

    The reason you are not paying $4500 for your iPhone is because it is build in China, where production cost are minimal.

    There isn't much evidence to support an iPhone costing $4500 USD to manufacture in the USA.

    And so what if it cost a little bit more if it meant that there were good middle class jobs for Americans to raise families?

    Could we maybe hold onto these phones for a few more years instead of just disposing of them when the next model comes out with a marginally better camera?

    Could Apple pay a bit more to employees instead of hoarding $256 billion in a Scrooge McDuck tower for Steve Job's ghost to swim around in?

    All while using offshore tax havens to evade paying corporate taxes?

    F#ck Apple hipsters and f#ck the iPhone.

    I'm happy Stern and JJP are proud American companies.

    23
    #28 2 years ago

    I miss the good old days when everything was...

    images (resized).png

    #29 2 years ago
    Quoted from wantdataeast:

    Quality control (including safety) is the most important thing about production.

    Not with oversea manufacturers.......you know how much toxic shit some of those Chinese workers are breathing in?

    #30 2 years ago
    Quoted from Stones:

    Not with oversea manufacturers.......you know how much toxic shit some of those Chinese workers are breathing in?

    He doesn't care about Sum Yung Boi , he just wants a cheaper pinball machine..

    #31 2 years ago
    Quoted from Stones:

    Not with oversea manufacturers.......you know how much toxic shit some of those Chinese workers are breathing in?

    You don't know either. How about you come and visit us in Shenzhen. ....it might surprise you.

    #32 2 years ago
    Quoted from wantdataeast:

    Where do you think 90%+ of the LED's in the pinball marketplace are produced?

    We know that. Did you ever talk to Art past owner of Comet? He's got some real horror stories.

    -2
    #33 2 years ago
    Quoted from moto_cat:

    He doesn't care about Sum Yung Boi , he just wants a cheaper pinball machine..

    Spoken like a eco warrior with nothing made in asia in his home. It must be great to be as nobel as you are.

    -1
    #34 2 years ago

    Here is an idea.... How about only those with NO Chinese products in their possession bitch about how bad items being produced in China are?

    #35 2 years ago
    Quoted from wantdataeast:

    Spoken like a eco warrior with nothing made in asia in his home. It must be great to be as nobel as you are.

    Why are you being so toxic? Chill out. Sure it's your topic but CHILL!

    #36 2 years ago
    Quoted from Stones:

    Not with oversea manufacturers.......you know how much toxic shit some of those Chinese workers are breathing in?

    How about that Stern factory video a few months back with the guy spraying 2-pac onto a test playfield without a respirator? Yay 'merica.

    #37 2 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Is there any way we can use coal to make a pinball machine cheaper?

    If so vid... another reason to produce Pins in China. China is building a new coal power plant each week to power factories to build iDevices so that Eco-Warriors worldwide can feel better about not building coal plants in their own countries, while they simultaneously lecturing the world on the evils of Chinese production.

    ... and bitch and moan because their Big Lewboski and Alien Pinball machines are not getting made due to lack of production money, VAT taxes, Export shipping logistic costs, surprise new production costs, etc.

    -1
    #38 2 years ago
    Quoted from MustangPaul:

    Why are you being so toxic? Chill out. Sure it's your topic but CHILL!

    Sorry friend... I loath Hypocrisy. You simple can not wear a pair of Nikes and lecture people on child labor, it is just that simple. And to sit and type distain for what is the facts of manufacturing life on a computer, iPad, or iPhone... or whatever. Built in China... It is just surreal.

    #39 2 years ago
    Quoted from wantdataeast:

    Sorry friend... I loath Hypocrisy. You simple can not wear a pair of Nikes and lecture people on child labor, it is just that simple. And to sit and type distain for what is the facts of manufacturing life on a computer, iPad, or iPhone... or whatever. Built in China... It is just surreal.

    All right we GET IT. Now that you've said your piece give it a rest. I think you started this thread with this kind of RANT in mind.

    #40 2 years ago
    Quoted from wantdataeast:

    ... and bitch and moan because their Big Lewboski and Alien Pinball machines are not getting made due to lack of production money, VAT taxes, Export shipping logistic costs, surprise new production costs, etc.

    Stern, JJP and Spooky seem to be able to manage to build pins in the USA?

    Quoted from wantdataeast:

    Sorry friend... I loath Hypocrisy. You simple can not wear a pair of Nikes and lecture people on child labor, it is just that simple. And to sit and type distain for what is the facts of manufacturing life on a computer, iPad, or iPhone... or whatever. Built in China... It is just surreal.

    Your attitude of "Move manufacturing out of the USA so I can have cheaper toys and more of them!!!" is one of the reasons why everything is built in China.

    I mean I guess as long as you get yours?

    #41 2 years ago

    Also, honestly as far as STERN or JJP being manufactured here in the good old USA, Aren't we really talking about these machines being "assembled" in the USA? What component parts are being made in the USA... The wood cabinet?

    Okay, I am being a bit facetious there, but realistic... what % of the parts come from China (or wherever) already? I would wager most.

    BTW, I am sure both Stern and JJP would prefer to buy all American parts, and I have nothing but respect for both companies.

    #42 2 years ago
    Quoted from MustangPaul:

    All right we GET IT. Now that you've said your piece give it a rest. I think you started this thread with this kind of RANT in mind.

    Read my first post again.

    It was threads on why Alien and The Big Lewbowski Pins are not getting produced fast enough (or at all). Hopefully this is not a big news flash, but the reason is always one thing... 100% of the time... money! Not enough of it.

    (AND... honestly. It was others thread of complaints about what the price increase is on Stern's new Star Wars or Batman Premium or LE machine, and quality issues.)

    New manufacturers typically have little start up funds (or not enough) Why do you think you guys' are a paying a deposit? Or having to buy the machines straight out? Why do you think that your deposit is non-refundable? Because that money(all of it) is spent on production of your pinball machine. These companies have NO surplus money lying around, for deposits or refunds. Production is a situation of robbing Peter to pay Paul.

    If a company is producing 300 pins... They probably are not seeing a profit until pin #225 or #250 OR they are hoping make enough on on their first pinball machine to pay for itself and then have a company in place that they can actually make a profit on their second pinball project.

    So my point was that if British or Dutch pinball machines were made in China (by the same Dutch or British manufactures) costs would be much lower and they could better afford their production cost (which it seems they can not at this time).. and their customers would get their pinball machines... not excuses.

    And this final comment is for my USA brothers: I am most specifically talking about Alien and The Big Lewbowski: both foreign companies. Your money is not going to American Jobs on those machines. How does it matter to you if they are made in China?

    12
    #43 2 years ago

    I would have liked nothing more than to have built the Homepin factory in Australia. Reality is it simply would never have happened.

    Actually some things are cheaper in Australia than they are here in China. Factory rent for example. I could rent a suitable place the same size in Australia for 75% of what I pay here. The landlords are right onto the fact they can charge anything they like and still rent the factory.

    Things like wages PLUS all the crap that goes with that means it is just not realistic to consider a factory in Australia.

    As to safety and workers rights, these are areas that would very much surprise the average Westerner that hasn't visited China. Don't believe the "Michael Moore" style programs you are fed about "poor workers conditions in China". That is mostly bullshit. Sure, there would have to be places that ARE bad and hard on workers just the same as I could find these places in Australia and probably any developed country.

    Don't get me started on the "factory suicides" - Homepin is less than 10km from two massive Foxconn factories and I have regular contact with many from these factories from workers to managers. I know the TRUTH about what happened and it would surprise and shock many. Again, ignore the crap the news outlets "want you to believe" - fake news if you like. In this instance it IS fake news for certain.

    Those that think Spooky, JJP, AP, Stern etc are using parts ONLY made in the USA should really put down that rose coloured flag they are waving. Simple facts are that a lot of these parts - not all - come from China and also India for some things like pinball legs.

    I'm pleased to say Homepin legs are made in China not India LOL.

    #44 2 years ago
    Quoted from Homepin:

    I would have liked nothing more than to have built the Homepin factory in Australia. Reality is it simply would never have happened.
    Actually some things are cheaper in Australia than they are here in China. Factory rent for example. I could rent a suitable place the same size in Australia for 75% of what I pay here. The landlords are right onto the fact they can charge anything they like and still rent the factory.
    Things like wages PLUS all the crap that goes with that means it is just not realistic to consider a factory in Australia.
    As to safety and workers rights, these are areas that would very much surprise the average Westerner that hasn't visited China. Don't believe the "Michael Moore" style programs you are fed about "poor workers conditions in China". That is mostly bullshit. Sure, there would have to be places that ARE bad and hard on workers just the same as I could find these places in Australia and probably any developed country.
    Don't get me started on the "factory suicides" - Homepin is less than 10km form two massive Foxconn factories and I have regular contact with many from these factories from workers to managers. I know the TRUTH about what happened and it would surprise and shock many. Again, ignore the crap the news outlets "want you to believe" - fake news if you like. In this instance it IS fake news for certain.
    Those that think Spooky, JJP, AP etc are using parts ONLY made in the USA should really put down that rose coloured flag they are waving. Simple facts are that a lot of these parts - not all - come from China and also India for some things like pinball legs.
    I'm pleased to say Homepin legs are made in China not India LOL.

    What he is saying is correct... It is not a matter if a company "wants" to produce something in their home country, it is if they can actually do it and stay in business.

    Let's say you are producing and children's book... with 40 pages of illustrations, You can either print that book in Canada, Mexico or China and use some artist from Brazil or Indonesia. And produce a high quality book, and MAYBE turn a profit (i.e. make a living of your work to feed your family) OR pay 4 times the cost for an Artist in your own country and 3 times the cost for a local Printer... and loose money. But of course you would never loose money because when you sat down and did your cost estimates you would know from the beginning that the project was not financially feasible. And the item would never get produced.

    Is that the cost of patriotism? Your family starving?

    Manufactures often have no choice but to produce things in Asian... either that or the item does not get produced at all.

    #46 2 years ago
    Quoted from DanQverymuch:

    Sending manufacturing jobs to China or anywhere else is almost always an attempt to increase profits for shareholders, not decrease prices.

    SAY IT LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK!

    #47 2 years ago
    Quoted from wantdataeast:

    If so vid... another reason to produce Pins in China. China is building a new coal power plant each week to power factories to build iDevices so that Eco-Warriors worldwide can feel better about not building coal plants in their own countries, while they simultaneously lecturing the world on the evils of Chinese production.

    You do know that China CANCELLED 103 new coal plants this year, right?

    Even though many of these plants were already under construction, this was to allow China to meet it's announced coal reducing goal by 2020.

    #48 2 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    You do know that China CANCELLED 103 new coal plants this year, right?
    Even though many of these plants were already under construction, this was to allow China to meet it's announced coal reducing goal by 2020.

    There are many nuclear power stations here in China that they keep quiet from the west because it's seen as a "taboo" subject by some in the west.

    Fortunately, where the Homepin factory is we are not subject to power rationing but a little further out from where we are it is a weekly thing were they will have no factory power for a couple of days a week.

    #49 2 years ago
    Quoted from Homepin:

    There are many nuclear power stations here in China that they keep quiet from the west because it's seen as a "taboo" subject by some in the west.

    Huh? Not understanding your point. We have lots of nuclear power stations in the U.S. too. They are a lot cleaner than coal. They're not a taboo subject at all.

    #50 2 years ago
    Quoted from pezpunk:

    Huh? Not understanding your point. We have lots of nuclear power stations in the U.S. too. They are a lot cleaner than coal. They're not a taboo subject at all.

    They sure are in Europe and Australia.

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