Agree with all of this, and I think the only reason that we haven’t seen Chinese-made product here yet is because the volume isn’t there. BUT someone out there must be looking at Stern’s numbers in the order backlog and saying “hmmmmm….”
I really think it’s only a matter of time, if market demand continues at this level. I’m actually surprised that a US-based company hasn’t taken this approach yet. It’s worked out pretty good for Arcade 1UP. Especially if a company could get their product on the floor at a Sam’s Club or a CostCo…then you’re selling to a large retail outlet, by the container-load.

Tbh amazon and aggrigators are streamlining the north american ways of consumerism.

Coin op amusement is just not a big thing in China.... maybe if it were redemption.. with a big franchise like a dave and busters..

But the problem is, there isnt any nostalgia to capitalize on, there is no, "thats american, it must be cool" as the Japanese were enamored in the 80s and the biggest obstacle is the device in everyones hand - mobile gaming.

Im pretty sure a lot of stern BOM is manufactured overseas but with covid supply issues a lot of supply chain is trying to decentralize their options for increased flexibility and resilience to disruption.

This is probably true, or at least mostly true. I wouldn't be surprised to see them build games with their own regional flair for the domestic market. I also wouldn't be surprised to see them try and build an export market. I'd suspect that for the export market coding would be the challenge. Coding can be pretty nuanced and I'd suspect some things could easily be lost in translation (although Nintendo mostly got it right in the '90's)

**Stern engineers furiously taking notes**

It’s not so much “they can’t” build it as “we won’t” buy it. If they made exact copies of TZ, MM, TAF etc for $500, I wouldn’t buy them.

I *hate* China and the trillions of dollars of IC that they have stolen from the US and other countries. They commit every atrocity known to man and the rest of the world turns a blind eye. It’s disgusting.

*note - I hold no ill will towards the *people* of China. My sentiment is towards the Chinese government.

Honestly, I might. If I could put exact copies of the full roster of B/W "A list" games in my gameroom for less than the cost of any one of them individually, I would probably do so.

I guess you better throw away your computer and probably another 100 things you have around the house.....

There is a distinction between items legitimately manufactured in China and those that are blatantly copied without license. I think it reflects poorly on manufacturers (such as Apple) that utilize China to make their products, but that's very different than an unlicensed forgery of an existing pinball title.

Isnt Lyman doing contract work now anyway?

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Is this fact, or spec?

The iphone in ur hand, most of the parts in your car, too.

could it have been too difficult to get the translation before printing.

Yuck!

Seriously? Fact. Ask any large US manufacturer and they will give you plenty of examples where their product designs have been stolen and reproduced without permission.

I have first hand knowledge of many fatalities resulting from the use of knock-off wire rope and rigging products that were blatant forgeries. Chinese companies make an inferior product that looks identical - same color, same company name on the product, etc. When the product fails under 1/8 of the rated load of the genuine product, bad things happen. It’s sad to see - but only a microcosm of a much larger problem.

Here’s a lighter take on the situation if you care to watch:

You mean Lymanson

With the difference that they will cost 1699$ and spare parts will be practically free.
If they seriously started making pinball machines, all the current manufacturers would be out within two years.

All valid concerns, but i think it falls short on the fact that all parts (maybe with dutch pinball as exception) are allready made in china.

I meant to suggest that they could dominate the market with new games if they wanted.

I dont see much business in black market pinballs made from stolen IP. It’s difficult smuggling a pinball machine back home in my carryon.

I don’t know if I could agree that Chinese made pinballs would “dominate the market”. It’s been attempted once and it currently holds the spot as the WORST modern pinball ever made:

53C968AE-1754-4162-886B-CF2554FEA905 (resized).png

Which says a lot because Hercules is REALLY bad.

I'd rather play El Toro. I never in life expected I'd say that.

I think the idea they are just gonna flood the world with cheap B/W replicas for $500 is insanity, it's never happening.

Cheap mid-century modern furniture from China is still not THAT cheap. You won't come even close to the original designs or quality for under $1000.

Pinball machines are basically big pieces of furniture with bunch of electronics inside. I'm sure if a Chinese manufacturer wanted to they are completely capable of making an exact replica of any pinball machine ever made. But will that sell for $500? An exact replica? The one they can retail for $500 in Walmart will be janky AF. An exact replica is gonna be $2500 or higher.

Which is STILL a lot cheaper than getting a 30 year old B/W A list game.

However they woouldn't be able to legally sell them in the states without a license anyways and I'm pretty sure Planetary would want something like $2000-$4000 per game knowing they'd still be able to sell them here for $6000-$8000.

---------

But I think the interesting question is will China have some type of pinball scene of its own. They could. Plenty of people with money seeking some entertainment. Will they make some adaptation to the game that catches on in their culture? If it did would they make themes and titles for export that US/EU/AUS audiences want? We'll have to wait and see!

Ya, it's sadly amusing. Probably a good chunk of the pinball community is older rich boomer white guys who have a pretty dated view of the world. Probably a lot of parts sourced from China from the american pinball manufacturers. If the Chinese market goes all in on pinball very possible they will rapidly get competitive.

This could be great for pinball and drive down the absurd prices here if Chinese companies seriously enter the market and giver the Stern and JJps of the world a scare.

Or have the exact opposite effect if rich Chinese really got into it and wanted to have the best American titles from today and yesterday.

I have seen knockoff les pauls so anything that fits in a shipping container can make it here.

LOL, the middle class of the first world is carried on the backs of the Chinese. Wait till they start consuming all those cheap products on their own. They won't need to ship it out, and they won't need to buy junk bonds anymore. When you buy that dirt-cheap, high-labour product, you are the one stealing from the Chinese, via their government and your government.

POW!

This crap is trotted out all the time. Ask people who actually OWN a Thunderbirds and they usually say it's good, not the best machine they have owned but overall it's fine.

It's already been agreed by most thinking people that the Pinside "top pinball list" is all BS. Look at Madalorean - currently number one only because it's the shiny new thing. Wait six months and it will be down to 40 then 60 etc etc. This "best pinball" list is just rubbish!

China makes video games and movies, but they're rarely popular in the United States. I'm not counting martial arts films, it is my understanding that those were mostly Hong Kong. Tencent publishes games that are mega-popular in the United States, but I think those games are mostly made by US developers. Pokemon: Unite being a recent exception.

What about a "Designed in Chicago" pinball machine but built in China. If you could manage a quality machine for $4999 it would sell. If the rumor of a $500 price bump on a Stern Pro is true a substantially cheaper machine could have a market.

Pinball Brothers are managing to build Aliens in Italy, no reason a company couldn't build machines in China (assuming you could save money doing so).

(On the other hand, if this was viable, wouldn't someone already be doing it?)

As someone who mfg in China I see two things; not enough volume (not even close) and they would have one goal if they decided to build; make it cheap, cut corners everywhere! Wouldn’t sell in the traditional pin market. With that said, they could make some great cardboard knockoffs that are free with 10 cereal box tops

Having seen how much manufacturing we no longer have here and how that has affected us during Covid is worrying. I decided a while ago to try to support local manufacturers as much as is practical. I will pay more now rather than going for the cheapest. Yes I’m in on Fathom Mermaid. I wouldn’t buy a Chinese pinball no matter how good or bad it was. Not a racial thing I just don’t like to support the regime.

Wow - stereotype much? Please share what you know about me or anyone else in this thread. Hating the communist government of China and how they oppress their people, lie, cheat and steal isn’t a “dated view of the world”.

No - not a “lot”. My understanding is cabinets, playfields, metal work, ramps are all made in the US. Microchips, LCD panels, LEDs, speakers, playfield inserts and some rubber is imported - but not entirely from China.

This post got me googling a little bit and all that really comes up for Pinball and China is:

A HomePin factory tour.

A showroom tour of a now defunct dealer.

And a post from five years ago on PinSide about trying to find games to play in China and finding zero.

There appears to be absolutely zero momentum for Pinball in China.

Of course the entire free world ignores the murders and atrocities, we're getting cheap products and $$$$!

Nice partial quoting there.

I said "Probably a good chunk of the pinball community is older rich boomer white guys who have a pretty dated view of the world. "

Are you denying that that is the sizable chunk of the pinball market? Most people I know into pinball are mid 50s or 60s. Like all age brackets that are some people more informed that others. I was referencing guys with dozens of pinball machines acting like China is some backwater and mocking their speech. Yes, those guys probably are rich boomers that think China is some backwards countey when in reality they are eating our lunch

Wish I could upvote more than once.

Yep, rich boomer here - and damn proud of it. Research some history and understand why they are ‘eating our lunch’ …at our expense. I don’t think of them as ‘backwards’ - no they keenly know what they are doing, and most in the U S are just fine with that as long as we can get our shinny stuff a little cheaper.

Damn, this has evolved into a political discussion I’d rather avoid on Pinside.

A great way to see how its seen in China is to use their search engines, like Baidu.

https://www.baidu.com/s?wd=pinball&pn=0&oq=pinball&ie=utf-8&usm=4&fenlei=256&rsv_idx=1&rsv_pq=8ccd560900027d1a&rsv_t=d7faH7VohdyRrl65FWQs5bXCBBKJSP4EPOh9InfuqHSF55XSJY7LOi0kTlE

Of course China has a different philosophy towards "knocking off" products. It is wrong of course.
But if its a Product, then its usually a competitor, or new entry that says, "Copy this", in many cases.

Sometimes its actually our own greed for lower prices, and our own success.

I have had hundreds of products knocked off by my competition from Asia through the years...

Agreed on that point. I was talking about the guys making racist "engrish" jokes and acting like China is only capable of making junk.

As OLDPINGUY says, use a Chinese search engine if you are trying to find anything in China, such as Baidu (the most popular one).

Google is banned and blocked so it won't return much, if any, useful information on anything you search for inside China.

Looking at the spelling on that machine , I think it's fair to say that we know what Joe and the Paperflock team moved onto after the Stern book .

Me likey bery mush

Apple is moving production out of China and into SE Asia, little by little. They see where things are headed and want to not have manufacture concentrated in an increasingly hostile power as it continues to get worse due to Xi's paranoia and new nationalism.

I guess you don't find 80's comedy movies funny when people didn't care back then or offended, just the crap pumped out of Hollywood the past 12 years because everyone is walking on pins and needles. I want the 80's back thank you!

It's not just about "people want cheap shiny" it's also about corporate greed wanting to make 80% profit off everything they sell to keep the shareholders fat and happy and ceo pay in the stratosphere.

Guys we aren't going to solve the trade war in this thread.

I think the poor engrish is in reference to the incorrect spelling on the machine in the photos.

Lol. Apple doesn't give a shit about the slavery and endless exploitation in China as long as you don't. They will move shop when conditions (mostly wages) creep up to non-suicidal levels.

The good news is that you can use the custom message on your new iPad to at least address a small part of the problem.

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I know its common today to Bash China because of Politics over the Last few years.
We can only start with ourselves, if we go back to the words that disagreed between Nixon and Kissinger.

China can make anything. and they make all different qualities.
Sometimes vendors are forced into providing a lower price to get sales.
I know this insanely from personal experience.

Take LEDs. To bring the bulbs to market, and to avoid the "One dead bulb, send me another for free" emails.
I agreed to Pay .01 cent more per bulb, in a 2nd Quality control test, Pre last step packaging.
I contracted to help with an additional build out and labor.
When done, the 1 out of 100 issue dropped to almost nothing.

But where do you think the failed bulbs went? Not to the Supplier that paid more, but to the one who is always negotiating
a lower price.

This happened in Jewelry, Puzzles, electronics, anything Ive ever had to change manufacturing to Asia, to stay in business, and meet large and small companies contracted bidding.

Manufacturing went from NYC, to rural, to Mexico, to Asia through the last 40 years. All Labor based.

So too often it isnt "China makes crap", it can often be their customers need and want larger margins. The result is China needs their
profit margins too, so the only answer is to short materials, QC, or labor.

Should China every make an LE Pinball in Mass Volume, US prices might be $3K or less. I wouldnt want the Price, if it meant
US companies shut down. Would you?