In my humble opinion, the thing that would stop a lot of people from building there own MM, AFM, or other game would be the few parts that in the end would just prove unattainable. I agree with most here that state the parts could be fabricated. Speaking for myself, I do not have the time or skill to fabricate parts from scratch. Plus, if I did fabricate any parts, I suspect they would be of poor quality. I do have the skill, time, & space to assemble my own game. All I would need is the parts. I would want all the parts sourced before I would spend the first dollar.

That said, if someone took the time to put together the list of needed parts and where to get them from, I would buy a kit (or put together my own). I think in the end greed will get in the way. People fabricating parts for $25 will want $75 for them because they is not available anywhere else. If this happens enough, then it would be cheaper to buy an already restored game.

This is a tough decision. I have to say, that the enthusiasm for this project is very positive.
For me, I have to believe that the reward outweighs the risk. However, my goal would be to complete a Medieval Madness. There are certain things going in I could care less about, like the speaker grille. My biggest concerns are the wiring harness and the lane guides and odd brackets.

Nba fast break is the best bet imo- it's cabinet wired for it (transformer), pop your roms in and MM will play, it will then be down to the wiring a harness. Just getting a populated MM playfield to play that didn't come from the factory, could be an amazing reward.

One just popped up on pinside for $1550 (nba)

Very cool project, I am excited to see where this goes.

One question - could a fully populated MM playfield be played in a MB or AFM cabinet (provided the correct ROMs are installed)?

Yes assuming the harness is included. The only work needed would be for the plunger/launch button. The launch button wiring comes from the coin door board so that's not a big deal. Oh and maybe the knocker, not sure.

I've never understood the fascination with MM, myself. I've played it a lot. It's fun... but it's also just a basic, plain old fan, with a toy... with the exception of the trolls, which I admit, I like. It's not a bad game, but for what people want for them, I could buy a number of other games, all of them more fun to play than MM, IMO.

All the rest of the preparation to build your own MM is really kind of pointless unless you can figure out a way to make a new wiring harness without frankensteining an existing one not everyone has the capabilities of doing this since it can get really involved.

Definitely a long shot with a project like this. I would be interested in buying a parts kit myself, I have a NBAFB I would gladly sacrifice to finally get a MM.

I am confused as to the whether or not the NBA is a mandatory asset for this project or a convenience.

I just don't understand what the fascination is here with a bunch of wires and plugs? This part of the project is a no-brainer. The wiring harness (IMO) is the LEAST of your worries with this project - a 12th grader could make one.

The very first thing needed to take this project forward is to appoint someone in charge and then that person needs to have a VERY VERY long talk with a lawyer to iron out the MANY legal issues before going anywhere else with this.

It's one thing for a guy on his own to build a replica MM (good on you Wally - fantastic!) but for a group of people to do it - well, all sorts of legal hurdles pop up and these need to be sorted out UP FRONT to avoid nasty surprises later in the project.

IMO unless this initial step is taken this project will just be talk and never go anywhere.

Any part can be fabricated to a satisfactory quality level - keep in mind we are discussing pinball machines here NOT space shuttle parts.

My biggest concerns are the wiring harness

That is the easiest of all the parts to this project.

One end gets this 40 cent connector and the other end either gets soldered to the playfield or another connector.

That's all there is to it.

The wires are listed in the manual as to what color they are. White with blue stripe, Brown with silver stripe....

idc10.jpg

So we make those parts first!

Ball guides, castle bracket, wire ramps - the parts that are so hard to find.

We can not legally sell the parts at a profit, only licensed vendors like Planetary and Illinois Pinball can.

It is possible that Gene would want to buy some parts so he could legally resell them at a profit, but that is certainly not the goal of this project.

If you think about it, Gene does not sit at a press and bend parts himself all day. He pays a fabricator to produce them for him. If a part cost Gene $25 to get to his door, I would not doubt that he sells it for $75, do you?

legal, legal, legal, legal, legal, legal, - LEGAL!

I hate to harp on about it but this MUST be sorted FIRST.

Some sort of Co-Op needs to be formed and someone must resolve legal issues before a single pin is crimped to a wire!

Not at all Mandatory.

If you want to use 16-20 year old circuit boards then use an old Congo, NBAFB or Junkyard.

If you want a an all brand new game, use all new parts. Your choice.

Fear not.

I have a meeting Monday afternoon with legal council just for this reason.

Yeah, that's what I didn't get: Why go through all this trouble to build a "new" machine to use the brains of an old one, especially if there's a way to get them made?

The brains are made by Rottendog and other companies.

They rebuild the exact same design, but with modern components, light up voltage indicators and heavier duty transistors.

We should find out what amperage ratings the transformer's voltages are wired for. I imagine the fuses should give us some clue.

We can save a fortune on the transformer because we don't need the 100v and 80v windings if we go with LED DMD display (just like you can pull the fuse on the 100v in games where you have installed the PinLED displays that only need 5v).

A toroidal transformer is cheap to have wound in custom voltages and they have less hum and electrical interference.

Only real advantage to using donor cab is convenience. NBA has the right boards, similar speaker/dmd panel, transformer, coin door, playfield & backbox hinges, siderails, etc. May or may not be more cost effective as well depending on price of donor game. Finding an NBA with a destroyed playfield for cheap would be the best thing, but unlikely.

I'm going to use a Monster Bash.

Excellent news........will be VERY interested in the outcome of this meeting

So what are the other donor options besides NBA? Not gonna sacrifice my TOTAN, but what else should I be keeping my eyes open for.

please guys >> lets not start killing a bunch of games because they are b or c listers in your head. If you are going to do this, do it right and make yourself a new MM. It seems really silly to put in that much time and labor and not go in 100%. Wally doing 1 and using a NBA was one thing >> 20 guys killing 20 NBAFBs is a whole new dimension...

Make a NEW MM!

Attack from Mars
Cactus Canyon
Championship Pub
Cirqus Voltaire
Congo
Junkyard
Medieval Madness
Monster Bash
NBA Fastbreak
No Good Gofers
Scared Stiff
Tales of the Arabian Nights

Another lawyer here on the Pin has already told me that there is little to worry about.

Williams did not patent any of the ball guides, and they do not have any logos or trademarks on them.

Even if they did have some kind of copyrighted idea to them, you would slightly change them and make them your own. You see improved ball troughs, reinforced scoops, and all sorts of other very game specific parts for sale all over the net.

Thanks Vid. Didn't think there would be any real legal trouble as we are not building to sell, but better safe than sorry, cover our asses and all that.

Totally agree, hopefully no pins will be harmed in this venture. Only asked because want to know what machines are potential donors as I do see machines being parted out now & then and I know a guy with a machine graveyard.

Not building to sell initially, but the issue will arise when people who complete this project eventually sell the machine.

Try selecting the correct Currency, People might think i am a total ripoff at that price

??

I think he's referring to my $300 castle bracket comment from mr pinball. I didn't look at the currency and apparently it was set to something other than US dollars .. I just fixed in original post

Other stuff:

Jason says we should move the cab speaker cut out so a big sub will fit without hitting the troll brackets.

Current punched cab speaker grills have 60% obstruction. We should explore better grill material for better sound.

More that a dozen people have asked if we could do AFM at the same time. This could save money because the ball guides would "nest" better with the MM guides during cut out (the better parts nest, the less waste, the higher yield per sheet, the lower the total cost). AFM has very few parts as it is a really simple game. How many of you would want the AFM ball guides, if even for future or backup use?

Is everybody going to go LED lighting and LED or Color DMD for display? Is anybody a incandescent lighting only kind of guy? Need to know for transformer order.

I got a whole case of nylon cable clamps for the cabs yesterday at work for us - for free. Keeping an eye out for any other scavengable parts.

Sorry, I did not know you were Mr Pinball.

But since you are, quote us on 20 Castle brackets with shipping to USA (you can PM me if you have some reason not to publicly quote).

This could be a good "Shlt or get off the pot" moment. Those who are "in" will start by ordering the hardest to find part - the castle bracket.

Led all the way as far as the display. Whatever every1 else wants.

Probably start driving the price of them up.

Just curious, but why you would care about 20 odd NBAFB getting converted? It really is the only reasonable option as far as WPC-95 pins go. Especially if you are going to keep the price at viable amount.

Just don't like the idea of ANY pin getting the axe unless already dead I guess. I still feel some quilt over my coffee table pin and that machine was a total wreck! (link here)

http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/freaking-cool-or-desecration

Of course, finally having a MM would go a long ways for easing any residual quilty feelings...

Just seems silly to do a mass group run of MM and not go at it 100% with new can and boards. Combined with me just hating the idea of killing some operational pins (no matter how crappy NBAFB is) just to make something else.

There are some destroyed pins with playfields worn or faded beyond repair out there. I mean, are you going to put a new $800 playfield and 25 hours labor into a NBAFB, Junkyard or Congo?

I don't like the idea of killing or parting out any pins, but there are some that are just too dead to resuscitate.

Agreed - and if it means not having to buy a new transformer, boardset, coin door, siderails, backbox hinges, speaker panel and a ton of other things, then I'd do it, provided the pin is not worth fixing.

I am fine with that Vid>> go get the dead ones and use them... just don't kill the working ones.

I actually am the sort of guy it appears that likes to put way too much into fixing up machines that nobody else would ever put the effort into. I would happily put a new PF and hundreds of hours in to less popular titles. I think JunkYard and NBAFB pretty much suck, but please don't kill any congos >> it is a great pin.

If anyone does destroy a Congo in order to use the cab and boards for their MM, please let me know. There are some parts and plastics I could use for mine Congo. I would be happy to buy the entire populated playfield just to make it easy on you. I also know of 2 other congo dorks that are looking for a few oddball parts and one destroyed congo could likely be very iseful to at east 3 of us.

If any "donor" games are used in this, then definately make sure any leftovers go to pinsiders!

Wait a minute. I know I am late to this party, but how serious are we and how do I join up?

This is not a done deal yet, still working out many details. Once we get it a bit more coordinated I suggest a new thread with a sign up contact and cut off date so we can get a head count and figure out quanities on parts.

I know at least one other pinsider that would be in too. This would be a cool project!

100% SERIOUS.

I will build one no matter what.

Anyone else who wants to build one too will lower all of our final costs by bulking up, and have an easier time by doing it at the same time as the others. From emails and PMs it looks like 22 people are in for sure, and another 12 or so are thinking about it.

Two attorneys have already agreed that we are completely in the clear, and tomorrow afternoon I have "the" consultation that will clear the final few questions.

Damn the torpedoes! We're going in full tilt.

Be sure to specifically ask what kind of legal issues might be presented when one of these machines is sold. I don't think that there will be any real issues in building these for personal use.

I see the legal problems in things such as cabinet decals - if one person were to organise the printing of 25 sets - that could be an issue????

Decals are already available from 10 different vendors.

We don't have to print them ourselves, we will just buy them like you do for any other MM restore.

Wayne has them in stock, if he gives a good price on 20-30 sets of them, we'll add them to our castle base order.

I already spoke to one of the attorneys about that.

No problem selling it at all.

Just like building a Mustang from Ford parts, as long as you don't misrepresent that the game was factory issued, or mislead someone with a fake serial number plate, you are good to go.

Same with a Mustang. As long as you don't try to switch titles or VIN# to avoid having an "Assembled Vehicle" title, you are free to sell it (although some states only let you sell 3 Assembled Vehicles a year).