Depending on Houdini's retail value, I'd settle my lawsuit today against Jpop for a machine. Or rather 3 of them, depending.
Quoted from mrbillishere:
Kim, I don't know... that settlement idea has merit but still, something seems tainted about it.
Bird in the hand and I move forward in life. There's a high probability of a long drawn out bankruptcy otherwise, from which we will pick over the bones.
I intend to take Jpop to the wall on this but if I find a reasonable out, I'll take it.
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:
At least one or two boutique companies are going to lose, and potentially fail out of lack of sales causing closures.
And sooner than most people think and it wont be a surprise to some.
Quoted from SimonBaird:
If even 10% of what is mentioned in the press release is true, and they have an actual working game, then who the hell built it? This is a pretty small community, wouldn't someone on pinside have know if they had actually built a flipping proto type?
There is a tonnage of information that never makes it to Pinside until its too late or intended. A lot of people in the know don't post or read here and for very good reasons.
And not to go off topic but most of you would be shocked to learn of the dirty tricks that goes on behind the scenes by seemly good guys.
Quoted from gweempose:
I truly hope John is foolish enough to show up at Expo this year to hype this game. It will give him the chance to witness firsthand just how much he is now loathed by the pinball community.
John is foolish but he's not stupid enough to show up at Expo. He already knows how much the community hates him and in my opinion, that is a part of his present day punishment. His ego use to feed off his stardom in public and at the shows. Now, instead of signing autographs he's peeking out windows like a tweaker.
And if he were to show up, there would be no yelling from me or any tough guy posturing. I'd calmly walk up to him and express my disappointment and ask him what he's trying to do about the money he owes me.
John of course will tell me about Nikola Tesla riding zebra Unicorns with angle hair and the coming together of a intergalactic 3rd universe with our tri-dimensional past life souls.
...Hmm, maybe I won't approach him.
Quoted from Mr68:
People will give him the stink eye from across the room and then return to their keyboards. That's how it usually goes down.
I'm quoting myself as I now regret that portion of my comment and I apologies to all. I will delete that section later as I no longer believe it to be true.
I got home late last night and read all of the wonderful, supportive comments on the American Pinball Facebook page. As a Jpop casualty, I was truly humbled.
For explanation of my former lack of faith, I will recall for you the Jpop thread.
A small group of us lost a lot of money and had a dream shattered. To which Pinside ridiculed us with derogatory name calling and claims of how superior they were to us. For a year or two, before I finally dropped out, it was a rotating cast of people with redundant insults and ridiculous claims. Pinside beat the shit out of us day after day with insensitive cruelty.
Our small group felt isolated and shamed by our own community.
I'm touched by what I read last night, posted under real names, and I thank each and everyone of you.
Quoted from Travish:
I guess. The only reason I can think of is creating drama or stirring stuff.
They can give themselves thumbs up's or supportive comments. They can bash other people without harming their main reputation. And best of all, they can read people they've blocked.
Like I said, all very cowardly.
They should change Davebowman's subtitle "Pinside apprentice" to "Pinside Troll". And show his location as "Inside your head"
Quoted from dgarrett:
Martin Ayub pinball news is not a shill for the game.
Martin Ayub is one of the great ambassadors in all of pinball and deserves to be inducted into the Expo Hall of Fame. The Pinball News is funded by Martin's personal finances and exists because of this and his energy.
The only negative I can say about the man is that he puts a dent in my beer budget.
Quoted from dmesserly:
His comment is that they will be heroes if AP makes games for MG owners is poor journalism to say the least.
How is this not true? I'm one of the MG owners and if AP makes everything right, I'll get up on stage at Expo with them and smooch every ass in the audience.
Quoted from dmesserly:
I understand that AP doesn't owe us anything but to find levels of support in the pin community for things as they appear is truly disheartening to me and others who lost. It's easy for others with hindsight to say we took a risk and lost.
Are you a part of the private disgruntled owners group or the lawsuit? Contact me with proof of your Jpop participation if so.
Don't know where we'll end up but shit is happening.
Quoted from vdojaq:
American Pinball did not just rise out of the ashes from JPop's failures and Zidware. They saw valuable, but distressed assets that could get them in the door of the pinball world QUICKLY. A.P. knows and Jon knows full well he could not sell the intellectual properties paid for by others so A.P. could not buy any of it. John HAS to be an employee on paper and he keeps all of the rights from Zidware and anything else. This keeps A.P. safe from any of John's lawsuits. Since A.P. is a new company, they will not be financially responsible for any of JPops misadventures. Instead, I have to speculate what they are doing is producing MG, RAZA, and AIW on BEHALF of John in exchange for him to be designing for A.P. and his cabinet designs. Of course John is getting paid, but not monetarily. He is getting paid with his machines being produced by A.P., they are bailing his ass out on the deposits he took . As far as anyone else John owes, aside from game purchases and deposits, A.P. with have nothing to do with that. I would almost go as far as speculating that the initial run of Magic Girls that are owed will not have an American Pinball logo on them anywhere.
I would have to venture and guess all the parts, boards/computers, harnesses, and mechanisms on these will be "made and assembled in China" and the games will just be quickly assembled here. How else for can you do low production # games for a retail of $7K? What that will do is bring new games to the market on a quicker pace, especially if common mechanisms are used on several designs. Almost like when Gottlieb would produce the same playfield for 5 different games, just the names and themes changed. It could be done on modern machines with simple layout changes. Hell , made in china might
I would also guess that you will see machines on a rotating basis, meaning one new machine produced for every title owed machine, just like we have now, Houdini introduced now, Magic Girl owed. At the end, if both parties are still standing A.P. does look like a shining star and John, well, stick to designing. What they are not paying in start up costs, which is significant because JPop did have a pretty solid core of assets with cabinets, designs, a working prototype, and other essentials, they will be paying in producing John's 3 games. It's a trade off and a gamble, but it is a gamble that could pay off significant odds.
Just pure speculation on my part, but as a businessman and a gambler, I can see how this comes about.
Yikes, well done. Remove the China speculation and you nearly nailed it. Most all parts are US sourced from what I'm told. Excellent analysis.
Quoted from MinusWorlds:
Here you go. The actual story from Cornelius. Worth the listen. He starts with the AP stuff around 15 minutes and MG specifically around 19. I enjoyed it very much. Even tho he kinda rips us. Hahaha.
Sorry CraziLevi, sorry Rascal, sorry Aurich, sorry Ben Heck!
LMAO. Most excellent podcast. Informative and funny. - Welcome to the club Cornelius!
He signs off like 3 different times. Stay with him to the end.
Myself and the owners group are now in a beginning phase of negotiations with American Pinball. Personally I love what I’m hearing and believe it to be our best shot. Who knows how it will end, but right now American Pinball looks like stand up guys to me. I’m cautiously optimistic.
– And if things fail, I will carry on with the lawsuit.
Lots of things going on you have no clue about but carry on Pinside.
Quoted from SilverBallz:
What is the reason American pinball feels they owe anything to anyone relating to JPops previous business? Does jpop have any ownership in American pinball?
I am not a representative for American Pinball. I am simply the administrator of the owners group and occasional spokesman.
Quoted from kvan99:
Well thanks for the useful info...
That portion of my comment was snarky and poorly worded. No problem calling me out. Let me rephrase:
It's amazing to me how completely far fetched most of the speculation and assumptions are in this thread. And the redundancy of it all. Carry on Pinside.
Quoted from jwilson:
Nothing more douchey than commenting on the quality of the conversation without actually doing anything to improve it.
Anyway, American Pinball is free to come here and put the speculation to rest. They choose not to, and guys like you also choose not to, so what do you expect?
I'm not going to speak and possibly jeopardize the situation for myself and the other owners. Details will eventually be revealed at a later date. - Get some fresh air.
American Pinball has a long way to go cleaning up the Jpop mess before speaking publicly. How about letting things solidify first without us having to check with you point by point.
Quoted from jwilson:
Then why say anything at all, and then shit on the speculators?
I get that speculation is crap, but that's all the "outsiders" have. And if American Pinball wasn't ready to say anything, why say anything at all?
My point is that the smart move is indeed to say nothing, but you couldn't help yourself and you had to take a cheap shot at people. That's douchey.
Your opinion is acknowledged.
Quoted from colonel_caverne:
You can insulte him all day long, but i'm sure that some people here are interested in getting back their money whatever the way to succeed. Insulting him at each post you write doesn't help your cause (even If i understand you again).
Thank you. Sometimes I wonder if Pinside ever reads between the lines with this guy. Aurich Lawson often has an agenda behind his clever words.
For perspective, please bear in mind the public feud Aurich and I have. He knows I head the owners group and have a lot of money at stake with Jpop. - Everybody thinks me the bad guy but its a two way street with a lot of history.
And I'm clumsy and not as clever.
Quoted from jlm33:
Nope. And I sincerely hope your communication with AP will result in a positive resolution for JPop buyers.
Just to clarify: are you also representing the artist(s), programmer(s), suppliers who worked for Jpop?
To be clear, I represent only myself. I am the administrator of the owner's group and occasion spokesman. Beyond the owners (lack of a better term) our group does include vendors and even the great artist, Zombie Yeti.
New members are being added as quickly as I can with this refresh.
Note to scammers: I vet everyone before allowing them in. Please don't waste my time or yours.
Quoted from Aurich:
I have Mr.68 on ignore because I don't care to receive any more abusive PMs from him (hi Kim, grow up), but I can tell from his downvotes on my posts and people talking about the Facebook group that he's around.
Is there a doctor in the house?
I'm happy for everyone that believes Aurich when he says he doesn't read me. (sheesh)
Quoted from rommy:
I am with Kim - watching pinheads go through the same group think process where they actually appear to believe something good will come from anything associated with Jpop is finally comical. I mean for the last couple years it was painful. But now it is actually comedic. Like a huge troll that just keeps going hehe.
If this is what you believe about AP then we are not in agreement. I'll make a judgment after discovery.
Quoted from benheck:
I will be critical of AP/JPOP until they prove me wrong.
I have great respect for you Ben but this is one of the issues I have with Aurich. Its unprofessional conduct and it looks petty. Although, he has taken it to the maximum level with all competitors and you have not.
I hope you reconsider.
Quoted from Pinballlew:
ZY should contact AP in my opinion and see if he is on the list to get a MG at least.
ZY is in the MG/RAZA owners group along with other vendors and everyone was updated just yesterday. Its way too early but things are definitely moving in a positive direction.
Expo seminar for American Pinball is Friday October 14th at 9:00. Both Scott Goldberg & Dhaval Vasani will be speaking. I strongly urge everyone be there to ask probing questions. No grandstanding hopefully but appropriate adult questions followed by listening.
Quoted from someoneelse:
If every game really would cost maybe 750K to develop, they already could have saved 500K each for MG & Houdini, 250K each for RAZA & AIW, so that's 1.5Million saved...money they can use to "make the old owners whole". Until the "whole making" part is achieved JPop might be working for free.
There is also value in free publicity even when its negative. If they handle things correctly, this will be a spectacular launch for a new company. Questions remain but right now podcasts are buzzing with the name American Pinball.
I have always admired creative and daring entrepreneurs.
Quoted from SunKing:
Or not. ...I'm guessing AP will not show anything at Expo.
The owners group has been in contact with American Pinball and they have been very forthcoming and transparent. Specifically Scott Goldberg who is heading everything.
I'll be at Expo and I'm over confident they will be there also. I highly recommend their seminar.
Quoted from Kerry_Richard:
Any discussion on the 124 of us who pumped $100,000's into RAZA?
I guess you're not in the private group. No matter, I now feel comfortable releasing this on Pinside. Here's a copy of my post to the owners group on October 6th:
" I had a phone meeting this morning with Scott Goldberg of American Pinball. Not his fault but I was short on time and we will speak again. Here are my quick notes.
Jpop is a consultant for AP to do Houdini
AP has no ownership of Zidware.
Zidware is the manufacturer of Magic Girl & RAZA
AP has been contracted to build MG on behalf of Zidware
MG will be manufactured as originally promised and shown by Jpop. No cut corners and only present owners will receive one. Delivery before the end of the year.
There will not be a second run of MG under a different or same game name.
Houdini is an original machine and not a lesser tier Magic Girl.
The manufacturer and builder of Houdini is AP. Designed by Jpop.
Owners of RAZA and AIW will be compensated after MG delivery and after the Houdini launch.
Compensation for those games is undetermined at this time and no time line given.
RAZA will most likely be built and limited to the 125 owners. Again, built for Zidware and no second run. However, options to swap into Houdini may be given to RAZA / AIW owners.
Here’s my guess on the unsettled RAZA / AIW situation. Magic Girl was paid in full by the owners so it was a no brainer. RAZA / AIW are paid for in various amounts and therefore need to be handled on a case by case situation.
What this means is, we are all still dealing with Jpop and this is his solution to make things right.
I need questions from you guys for my next meeting with Scott. Please put them in this thread. I apologize to the vendors for overlooking them.
Quoted from jwilson:
Apparently they cancelled their Expo seminar?
I guess not having a flipping game would cause a riot.
Rumors were floated last night that the seminar was canceled. Another was the seminar was private, invitation only. I sent Scott Goldberg a text to confirm and we had a laugh. Both are untrue and it's more industry dirty tricks.
And for the record, the Stern Batmans, all 3 of them on display, are not flippable games. No riots were had.
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