Googling American-Pinball and press release yields nothing. I call BS.
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I don't care if it's the best pinball machine ever created and only retails for $1000. I won't buy any new game associated with JPOP until restitution is provided to the buyers of his other games who were defrauded. And I hope if things were reversed and I had lost prepay money that others would refuse to do business with him as well.
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:Well Houdini was known to Hold Seances at the end of his career, as well as his public illusions of trickery, and deceit.
He bragged how no cell could hold him.
hmmmmmm
A Seance for Mr Angelo, and Jpop seeing himself as Houdini?
He certainly has mastered Public illusion and deceit!
Houdini was very much against fraud and trickery of seances.
A few things:
People saying "AP will be a good alternative to Stern's moneygrab"; Stern's Pro games are still around $5K street where this is $7K. Stern will be fine.
Second, this entire hype article and secret reveal that didn't reveal anything must be feeding preorders. If there's a game that's going to be out there's no point in hiding it. I don't see any other point in hyping this other than to take up-front dollars.
Kevin Kulek at least built a flipping game and brought it to shows. Seems like anything associated with JPOP can't build a flipping prototype.
Quoted from RandomGuyOffCL:Might take quite a few years and quite a few small checks in the mailbox, but this seems a bit more viable than making everyone whole right out the gate.
Yeah but let's be real: no one is going to buy a Houdini, or plop down pre-order money, if that's the plan. And I think pre-order money is probably what is going to happen here.
Quoted from MinusWorlds:When I talked to AP I flat out told them they aren't getting pre-order money. They conceded the point and said they were still working that piece out.
What kind of business works out the part where you collect the money last? How they fund the company has to be the most important part. Otherwise you're just playing pinball arts and crafts in the basement.
Wait so this is where this thread has arrived:
Stern games suck.
American Pinball has a chance to knock it out of the park.
American Pinball is going to make games affordable at $6995 while Stern NIB Pros at $5K or less are a money grab.
Seriously pinside. I love you guys but really?
American Pinball is another scam, going to be obliterated legally before they deliver one game, but probably not before they get a chance to con a few more pinheads.
You might not like Stern games but at least people have them.
Quoted from dgarrett:Whatever the outcome , props for timing and buzz , 1800 posts out of nowhere in a week, the month of Expo. Smart or lucky, it's good marketing.
It's easy to market something. Pinball manufacturers aren't suffering because of lack of marketing. The issue is its damn difficult/expensive to make a pinball machine.
It doesn't make any sense to show an unfinished machine if they're going to be done "before the end of the year" unless they're taking preorder money. I remain convinced this is a fools' errand until they deliver the first game to the first customer.
Quoted from kvan99:Yes....but we know they have money (Son of Aimtron's owner). They've said it publicly that MG will be made,so to walk that promise back would be a disaster to a newly minted company. I don't think they're they're that crazy.
I don't doubt Aimtron has money. But what kind of successful business spends a million dollars or maybe more making games that they legally don't have to? I am not an entrepreneur but i don't understand how a million dollar outlay to JPOPs customers (and don't forget the vendors!) sells them more than a million dollars worth of Houdini. Stern probably doesn't pay it's game designers more than 200k per annum. It would be much much cheaper (and not have any JPOP stigma and possible expensive legal drama) to poach a Stern designer for 200k a year and it can't possibly cost more than 500k to build one design master/manufacturing prototype.
It makes zero sense to make zidware customers whole for a new venture. It's way more likely JPOP conned the American Pinball dudes with a box of lights just like he conned the pinside people.
Quoted from Baiter:From a pure business standpoint you are correct that it would be cheaper to hire a different designer
Yes, these entities are businesses. If they are not run that way (profitably and with the right licensing and legal entities) then games don't get made and people go broke.
Aimtron is not setting out to be a white knight to right all the wrongs of JPOP. It's creating a new pinball company. Williams closed its pinball division even though it was making a small amount of money. How long do you think Aimtron would lose money for?
Quoted from kvan99:I agree with you..but when you're loaded you can eat a little cost upfront when you launch a new company, also lets face it Jpop is a good designer(25-30 MGs are no where near 1 Mil). There are only a few designers out there that aren't tied to a company. Nordman is the only one that comes to mind right....so who knows maybe they tried and couldn't get anyone with the same name recognition. We complain about this stuff but good pf and mech design is still very difficult for the sophomores.
I guess JPOP hasn't demonstrated he can build working play field mechs. All his post-Williams games have been art and lights, none have shown working custom mechs? Games that have flipped have had magnets and flippers and spinners. Standard stuff.
I still contend that AP is either being conned about the state of MG/Houdini by JPOP or AP is a willing participant in a new fraud. Wouldn't be the first time a successful business owners son makes a bad business decision.
I don't care what they say they'll need to take preorder money.
Quoted from SunKing:Or not. ...I'm guessing AP will not show anything at Expo.
I think dgarrett is implying an announcement about the disposition of Zidware customer orders... even so, its all just words until the games ship. I don't think anything surrounding this story should be accepted at face value, given JPOP's involvement.
Quoted from NYP:Last I checked it was October, I would be shocked if they were even able to order all the parts they need to build, forget about actually receiving them all. If these were really going to be ready within the next 2 months then I would assume ALL the parts are already in house, all the playfields and associated parts are in stock, all the software is finished and they have the facility and help to start assembling and they are putting them through their final tests. Does anyone have any insight to any of this? In my mind, JPOP is still redesigning the on/off switch. I want to "believe" but I just don't feel confident yet.....Hey A.P how about a picture on facebook showing you have possession of all the parts ?
Exactly. If they are going to ship by the end of the year, the game should be done and the demo they showed off should be finished and flipping. they should have assembly-line built prototypes available to show.
Quoted from pinballinreno:Its very possible to have playfields assembled in China at a low cost and then final assembly here in the
USA, very quickly, as a lot of the parts are already manufactured in China.
Their production and prototyping at an extremely fast pace is well known.
I see no problem getting 50 to 100 games out in 30 days if they have 1 complete game to draw from.
The Homepin company has been trying to build games in China for 2 or 3 years now. It's not as easy as you think.
Also why would American Pinball, whose CEO is the son of Aimtron, a USA manufacturer, outsource to China? The selling point of AP, to an outsider, would be they have teamed up with a manufacturing outfit. Why then would you expect AP to contract out to a foreign country to make games?
I have a friend who built a company making clock-radios and other electronics from China. It took him a long time to establish business relationships and get products. Even with factories that he had great relationships with, he had lots of failed prototypes where a substitution was done or a part was created wrong requiring a re-run of all the wrong components. The idea you could get a game 30 days after you have 1 pinball game in China is crazy. Chinese integrated manufacturing is certainly world class but mostly with low voltage stuff that is mostly-on-circuit-board. high voltage mechanically driven hand-assembled components like pinball machines aren't exactly the 30 day turnout wheelhouse. It's actually closer to manufacturing a very small car considering the materials, part counts, and moving pieces.
Congrats on what? Another non flipping playfield? AP had no business showing in Vegas weeks ago if they still have no game and are walking back initial promises. They should have just waited 9 months and announced when the games were ready to ship.
Quoted from rubberducks:They couldn't possibly operate at 1000 units p.a. still.
I mean, you don't know whether they are profitable or not. They have an angel investor. They could be burning his cash keeping the doors open. I doubt they're doing 3500 games a year. Pinball continues to be hard.
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