(Topic ID: 169477)

New Game Houdini? Just Announced by American Pinball.

By RickThorn

7 years ago


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#1601 7 years ago

a simple interview question... neither Scott nor DV claim to be pinball people... so why start American Pinball? what are your aspirations? Why this segment vs others? who do you plan on engaging to ensure you 'hit the target' when it comes to the pinball buyers market? what segments do you look to target? What is your intended method of distribution?

If they can't answer simple questions like that.. its zidware all over.

You claim to be distributing games in just weeks and you don't have distribution and support at levels you are willing to talk about? Then you're full of (&^$

#1602 7 years ago

From all the reports, Magic Girl was a disaster when displayed. Couldn't even begin to be playable. The design had major problems according to everyone who had a chance to evaluate it and some felt it needed to be scraped for a new design. And now it's going to be "delivered" in 3 months??
And it's still not a playable machine??
PFFFFttttt.... I hope to be wrong but this just sounds like BS.

#1603 7 years ago
Quoted from unigroove:

As I was preparing my monthly Pinball Magazine Newsletter with the recap of September I found myself wondering about a thing or two about American Pinball. As I've had some email contact with them last week when Houdini was first announced I dropped them an email and asked whether they would be up for a quick phone interview. As they were I figured: let's turn that into a podcast and they were OK with that. So here's the first Pinball Magazine podcast: A quick interview with Scott Goldberg and Dhaval Vasani of American Pinball.
https://soundcloud.com/user-935579828/pinball-magazine-podcast-01-american-pinball
https://soundcloud.com/user-935579828
Please note: I'm not trying to be Nate or any of the other podcasts, but this was the quickest way to get the interview out. So don't expect any tunes, jingles and all that kind of stuff. This is just a phone interview with an intro and outro. During the interview at some point the audio dropped away on Scott's end, but I left it like that. I figured what he was trying to say was pretty clear.
Hope you enjoy and appreciate the effort
Cheers,
Jonathan
http://www.pinball-magazine.com

Great scoop Jonathan! That fills in a lot of blanks and the questions you asked were spot on. It answers many things people would be speculating on for two more weeks. I would have asked if they knew whether JPOP was planning to attend Expo, but that isn't really relevant to the story. Can you call them back with that and any followup questions?

14
#1604 7 years ago

Let's say I start a company called "Balls of Steel" to produce pinball-themed underwear. My designs are fabulous and I'm awesome. My first design, titled "The Silver Hammock", blows everyone away. Everyone wants a pair, so I sell preorders to a lucky 100 people. Well, turns out I'm full of shit. I show up at Underwear Expo 2015 with prototype underwear made out of styrofoam, but they aren't wearable yet. Oh well. I run out of money, can't pay my employees, file for bankruptcy and Balls of Steel is dissolved.

Fast forward to Underwear Expo 2017. A new company called American Crotch Covers announces they are making a new underwear designed by me. Looks intriguing, but people are suspicious. But don't worry, ACC decides they will make exactly 100 pair of "The Silver Hammock" to go to original buyers!

Of course this would never happen, but I have questions.

1) After a company is defunct, who owns their intellectual property? Can I just use intellectual property from a failed company at my next job?

2) Can company "A" manufacture something designed by company "B" after its dissolved? Who decides?

3) Can a company legally benefit from using intellectual property of a defunct company? By paying a former employee as a consultant?

Your input will help me devise my next scam, so thanks in advance.

#1605 7 years ago
Quoted from radium:

Your input will help me devise my next scam, so thanks in advance.

There's not enough margin in underwear. You'll run out of money before you get your first pair prototyped

-3
#1606 7 years ago
Quoted from radium:

Of course this would never happen, but I have questions.
1) After a company is defunct, who owns their intellectual property? Can I just use intellectual property from a failed company at my next job?
2) Can company "A" manufacture something designed by company "B" after its dissolved? Who decides?
3) Can a company legally benefit from using intellectual property of a defunct company? By paying a former employee as a consultant?
Your input will help me devise my next scam, so thanks in advance.

1) if the company is the owner of the IP, it would look to sell it as part of their liquidation and wind-down to fund any ongoing liabilities. Else if they were in the clear, they would usually transfer ownership or outright sell to an interested party (even insiders). If the IP being used isn't the company's in the first place (like JPOP patenting things in his name instead of the company) then its just ending their use of the property. Where things get more messy is if arrangements are made like exclusive rights, etc. But when a company is dead, unless there are people owed money still.. there usually isn't someone there to fight
2) usually a dissolved company has nothing.. its liquidated. If there are designs, concepts, etc.. well who is going to persue when the company has no representation? Usually the IP would be picked up by another party if it had some value. Abandoned things depends on the subject matter and type of protection it had (trademarks, copyright, patents, etc). Usually it's less about the other company fighting back, but about how free-and-clear a concept is. You don't want to build your business around something, and have some skeleton come out of the closet and then pursue you now that the item is actually worth something.. or you are. It would be unusual for something to be completely abandoned at time of dissolution.
3) It again returns to who 'owns' the IP in question. Most employers have employment contracts that equate to saying the company owns everything you do while at work.. so the work and concepts are the company's, not the employee's. But with most civil topics, you'll get away with it until someone persues you.. and they need standing to do so. So it all returns back to who are the owners of the IP when the company winds down and what they do with their assets.

#1607 7 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

a simple interview question... neither Scott nor DV claim to be pinball people... so why start American Pinball? what are your aspirations? Why this segment vs others? who do you plan on engaging to ensure you 'hit the target' when it comes to the pinball buyers market? what segments do you look to target? What is your intended method of distribution?
If they can't answer simple questions like that.. its zidware all over.
You claim to be distributing games in just weeks and you don't have distribution and support at levels you are willing to talk about? Then you're full of (&^$

They plan on shipping 25+/- MG's before year end. Why do they need a distribution model for that? We don't know when (or if) Houdini will be going into production. That's what they need to worry about distribution for. Assuming that it is not a boutique pin and will be mass produced. At $6,995, it tells me that's a high production run title.

#1608 7 years ago

Give it up Flynnie on the legal front. You have ZERO clue with your ramblings about nothing

None of what you say means anything. You are clueless with respect to an involuntary dissolution and no I'm not going to write a two page essay explaining all of the possible options for you

And none of this BABBLE has any material relevance to anything!

#1609 7 years ago

On the other hand, a "voluntary dissolution" means the debts have been paid and assets distributed. You have gotten a certificate of good standing with the comptroller, etc

Now you don't see that here, do you?

#1610 7 years ago
Quoted from radium:

I start a company called "Balls of Steel" to produce pinball-themed underwear. My designs are fabulous and I'm awesome. My first design, titled "The Silver Hammock", blows everyone away. Everyone wants a pair, so I sell preorders to a lucky 100 people.

I'd like to know where I go to order a pair of this limited edition The Silver Hammock under roos good sir? Are you bringing them direct to customer or using distributors?

#1611 7 years ago

My hourly rate is $550 an hour. Or call Tiger or RobT so they can explain it to you

My number is 210-687-1333

-1
#1612 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Give it up Flynnie on the legal front. You have ZERO clue with your ramblings about nothing
None of what you say means anything. You are clueless with respect to an involuntary dissolution and no I'm not going to write a two page essay explaining all of the possible options for you

There is nothing saying Zidware was an involuntary dissolution. Zidware doesn't even have any judgements against it yet AFAIK let alone a court ordered dissolution.

If you have anything to the contrary... put up or shutup. Your lack of detail and over reaching is tiring.

#1613 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

My hourly rate is $550 an hour. Or call Tiger or RobT so they can explain it to you
My number is 210-687-1333

24
#1614 7 years ago

I've got a bumper sticker line for these guys:

"If it doesn't flip, it flops"

2 weeks. Get to work John. The 5 year coffee break is over.

#1615 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

My hourly rate is $550 an hour. Or call Tiger or RobT so they can explain it to you

I think I get like $20 lol

rd

#1616 7 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

There is nothing saying Zidware was an involuntary dissolution. Zidware doesn't even have any judgements against it yet AFAIK let alone a court ordered dissolution.
If you have anything to the contrary... put up or shutup. Your lack of detail and over reaching is tiring.

It says it on the Illinois state website! Open your eyes and f Ing read it

Doesn't have to be "court ordered" Mr. legal eagle. So many other ways. What are they?

If you have a question, ask it. You don't have to Trump it all the time.

#1617 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

It says it on the Illinois state website! Open your eyes and f Ing read it

It's status does not, but I do see now under 'secretary' it mentions involuntary. But how does that change the answers to the poster's questions?

See... you can have an actual contribution to the thread besides 'WRONG!!' - try adding value. He asked specific questions. Maybe you can afford those pinside members some pro bono work..

#1618 7 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

It's status does not, but I do see now under 'secretary' it mentions involuntary. But how does that change the answers to the poster's questions?
See... you can have an actual contribution to the thread besides 'WRONG!!' - try adding value. He asked specific questions. Maybe you can afford those pinside members some pro bono work..

I do, and offer it all the time!

I do Wills and Trusts for Pinsiders in Texas pro bono if they need the help. My license won't allow me to go out of state.

#1619 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

My hourly rate is $550 an hour. Or call Tiger or RobT so they can explain it to you
My number is 210-687-1333

By any chance do you accept tokens and redemption tickets too?

#1621 7 years ago

(a) It has failed to file its annual report or final transition annual report and pay its franchise tax as required by this Act before the first day of the anniversary month or, in the case of a corporation which has established an extended filing month, the extended filing month of the corporation of the year in which such annual report becomes due and such franchise tax becomes payable;
(b) it has failed to file in the office of the Secretary of State any report after the expiration of the period prescribed in this Act for filing such report;
(c) it has failed to pay any fees, franchise taxes, or charges prescribed by this Act;
(d) it has misrepresented any material matter in any application, report, affidavit, or other document filed by the corporation pursuant to this Act;

This is common in the State of Texas and easy to remedy and reinstate an entity if desired.

#1622 7 years ago

iceman44 you need to get an Illinois license. So funny, my wife and I were just talking yesterday about finally setting up a will.

#1623 7 years ago
Quoted from GetTheJackpot:

So does JPOP have a licence agreement with Houdini's estate to use his name and likeness?

Why do people keep saying this?

Dude has been dead 100 years. You wouldn't need a license for a Grover Cleveland pinball either

Believe me, licensing isn't even the parking lot of the ballpark that concerns of this project are in.

#1624 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I do, and offer it all the time!
I do Wills and Trusts for Pinsiders in Texas pro bono if they need the help. My license won't allow me to go out of state.

Can you elaborate on the definition of 'known claims' vs claims that can be filed under the 5 yr expiration? Re: 805 ILCS 5/12.75 I'm curious how this section could potentially limit suits against zidware from people who are not already engaged in the lawsuit (if for instance they take no action now in the >120 day window after the dissolution). I am not clear on limiting future remedies that are protected under 805 ILCS 5/12.80 if someone doesn't make their claim "now". I mean, if they are going to sue for things owed, etc.. if those liabilities are not forced open now.. wouldn't that limit the possible avenues available to persue in the coming years? .75 does not apply to criminal complaints.. but if people are focused on their money/product owed.. don't those claims need to be in there?

Given the supposedly horrid state of zidware accounting... I have to think all of this knowledge of outstanding liabilities and who creditors are has got to be a cluster$%@ and who would rely on notifications sent from those records?

-1
#1625 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

This is common in the State of Texas and easy to remedy and reinstate an entity if desired.

that's what I want to know.. if it was administrative or judicial. But the full illinois circuit court records for docs aren't available online for the lay... easily that I can find.

#1626 7 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

There is nothing saying Zidware was an involuntary dissolution. Zidware doesn't even have any judgements against it yet AFAIK let alone a court ordered dissolution.
If you have anything to the contrary... put up or shutup. Your lack of detail and over reaching is tiring.

If you are going to continue to play a Lawyer on Pinside, you should probably learn how to spell "judgments".

-1
#1627 7 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

If you are going to continue to play a Lawyer on Pinside, you should probably learn how to spell "judgments".

Ooo... the spelling police. Always a winner. Is this where I say 'I don't give a #@$%' about typos or insignificant spellings when typing fast and informally? Yeah, I think so.

The irony about nitpicking spelling.. yet ignoring the glossing over of significant generalizations and complete lack of precision or important differentiation between concepts just cement's Pinside's reputation.

-1
#1628 7 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

that's what I want to know.. if it was administrative or judicial. But the full illinois circuit court records for docs aren't available online for the lay... easily that I can find.

It doesn't appear to be judicial ordered because the litigation is still pending.

Admin dissolution due to lack of filing franchise tax return would be my guess.

None of it matters, John is a silent partner with AP and the IP with Zidware Inc.? What's it worth? Not much imo.

I don't know what Zidware Inc. worked out with Bill.

If I was AP I wouldn't care other than trying to make Zidware liabilities whole as part of the whole "process"

DC might know about actual IP filings and I know Steven Marsh has continued on to this day. I think Steve is a good guy and trying to do the right thing.

I highly doubt IP rights will be litigated, nobody will win in that case and I don't see anything of value anyhow

End of the day, how much $$$$ are the 3 amigos putting into this deal to try and salvage it? It will take a lot

#1629 7 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Why do people keep saying this?
Dude has been dead 100 years. You wouldn't need a license for a Grover Cleveland pinball either
Believe me, licensing isn't even the parking lot of the ballpark that concerns of this project are in.

Because they would rather post in haste than do some research. I've mentioned this exact point several times.

So will someone post pics of Houdini and let me know how to pre-pay? Thanks.

#1630 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

My hourly rate is $550 an hour. Or call Tiger or RobT so they can explain it to you
My number is 210-687-1333

I might hire you after I get a few presales. You need underwear? Maybe we can work something out.

#1631 7 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

I'd like to know where I go to order a pair of this limited edition The Silver Hammock under roos good sir? Are you bringing them direct to customer or using distributors?

I don't need distributors, my scam is you just send me check and get nothing until another company hires me and does a bailout.

You want a pair? It's $550 deposit!

#1632 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I don't know what Zidware Inc. worked out with Bill.

This is what Bill posted on the JPop thread on 9/22/16...

Quoted from wcbrandes:

Lawyers of his trying to contact me, when finally replied they said nothing was moving forward disregard all their calls to get back to them. I'm assuming they knew I still carry the rights to the titles.

The status *may* have changed in the interim? Bill hasn't posted on that thread since then.

#1633 7 years ago
Quoted from rotordave:

I think I get like $20 lol
rd

US NZ dollars?

#1634 7 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

1) if the company is the owner of the IP, it would look to sell it as part of their liquidation and wind-down to fund any ongoing liabilities. Else if they were in the clear, they would usually transfer ownership or outright sell to an interested party (even insiders). If the IP being used isn't the company's in the first place (like JPOP patenting things in his name instead of the company) then its just ending their use of the property. Where things get more messy is if arrangements are made like exclusive rights, etc. But when a company is dead, unless there are people owed money still.. there usually isn't someone there to fight
2) usually a dissolved company has nothing.. its liquidated. If there are designs, concepts, etc.. well who is going to persue when the company has no representation? Usually the IP would be picked up by another party if it had some value. Abandoned things depends on the subject matter and type of protection it had (trademarks, copyright, patents, etc). Usually it's less about the other company fighting back, but about how free-and-clear a concept is. You don't want to build your business around something, and have some skeleton come out of the closet and then pursue you now that the item is actually worth something.. or you are. It would be unusual for something to be completely abandoned at time of dissolution.
3) It again returns to who 'owns' the IP in question. Most employers have employment contracts that equate to saying the company owns everything you do while at work.. so the work and concepts are the company's, not the employee's. But with most civil topics, you'll get away with it until someone persues you.. and they need standing to do so. So it all returns back to who are the owners of the IP when the company winds down and what they do with their assets.

Not sure how correct this is, but at any rate it seems it's a fuzzy enough scenario that it is easily exploitable. Seriously, think of how easily someone could do this. Maybe Jpop really is a genius.

#1635 7 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

The irony about nitpicking spelling.. yet ignoring the glossing over of significant generalizations and complete lack of precision or important differentiation between concepts just cement's Pinside's reputation.

Geez, lose the bloody apostrophe will ya? Sheesh...

#1636 7 years ago

AP might do incredibly well...

Because it almost seems being shitty works great for some other pinball manufacturers?

AP should just say "games to ship in a few months" for the next 3 years then make sure the game has ghosted inserts which of course aren't programmed. Then raise prices, start an army, block folks on social media & do a cartwheel.

Yeah! Go AP & Jpop

#1637 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

It doesn't appear to be judicial because the litigation is still pending.
Admin dissolution due to lack of filing franchise tax return would be my guess.

I've not seen anything that suggests these records are available online either.. only their status and probably would have to pay for the record lookup and faxes to get the actual filings. As you said, remedies for Administrative closures are a plenty.

Quoted from iceman44:

None of it matters, John is a silent partner with AP and the IP with Zidware Inc.? What's it worth?

I don't think the zidware IP angle is worth much.. and probably not worth fighting the legal battle over since the stuff in question is probably only those 3 titles, and any of the patent stuff is in John's name, not zidware. Houdini is a great example of how you get get the 'guts' of what was of value from jpop's output... without having to buy the dead weight too.

But wrapping up John's legacy seems to be a goal.. which IMO.. speaks volumes about John's involvement with the company. I'm not buying at all that he's just a hired gun for design work alone. Can't you see some sort of release being a condition of completing your MG order? 'by accepting this.. you release AP, JPOP, Zidware, of all claims regarding your MG order... blah blah blah' etc? I can't grasp any other reason these 'independent' people are so committed to trying to clean up the prior jpop legacy. Do they really think he has that many profitable designs in him??

Quoted from iceman44:

If I was AP I wouldn't care other than trying to make Zidware liabilities whole as part of the whole "process"
DC might know about actual IP filings and I know Steven Marsh has continued on to this day. I think Steve is a good guy and trying to do the right thing.

I'm not as sure of that as I used to be. He acted EXTREMELY negatively (took his ball and went home) after being called out for failing to disclose his relationship and past work with AP after commenting about them and their outlook. This, among friends he has known for basically 20 years. It's clearly not an association he wants out there... and claims it is nothing beyond doing some paperwork for them. I've known the guy for 20 years and his reaction was quite shocking. Not a 'its nothing more than X..' kind of response.. it was a scorched earth, F you all I'm leaving kind of response.

#1638 7 years ago

I think Bill still owns the IP rights and contract to produce MG?

Not sure what legal theories could be implemented to get around MG other than simply not make it.

AP might be forced to try Houdini if they can produce it and come back to MG later?

#1639 7 years ago
Quoted from radium:

Not sure how correct this is, but at any rate it seems it's a fuzzy enough scenario that it is easily exploitable. Seriously, think of how easily someone could do this. Maybe Jpop really is a genius.

the issue is, the system largely leaves it to civil actions to pursue and expose.. meaning someone has to foot the bill. The state doesn't have the resources to chase every one of these down or necessarily the interest to investigate small fries... and the less there is to recover, less motivation for people to pursue to the end.

The big take away is.. if there are assets there of value.. they won't be abandoned. They'll be sold or granted to someone. The trick is making sure that transaction is actually in the best interest of the corp's responsibilities... and not just the individuals in play. Unless there is already an independent in play to prevent it from happening at the start.. its costly (and slow) for someone to challenge this after the fact.

#1640 7 years ago

I'm confused by the conflicting information on the state of Magic Girl. If you can't have the game flipping by Expo how can you have all the approvals you need (RoHS at a minimum and likely CE) to ship a game to the EU by year end? I know there's at least one sold into the EU; there may be other countries to deal with also.

To me, it never made sense for Zidware to take on multiple countries of regulations and approvals for a game with a run of only 25.

#1641 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I think Bill still owns the IP rights and contract to produce MG?
Not sure what legal theories could be implemented to get around MG other than simply not make it.
AP might be forced to try Houdini if they can produce it and come back to MG later?

but they've already gone on record (multiple times) that they intend to deliver MG this year. Before I would have said, that meant ensure zidware can deliver those games.. but if zidware stays defunct... that means another entity would have to be involved in the transaction.. or maybe MG is part of the wrap-up of zidware? So many angles that are possible...

Would be nice if bill clarified if he was transfered the exclusive right and if that included a license back to zidware.. but he's been mum on most of this. So makes you wonder if more dialogue is happening...

#1642 7 years ago
Quoted from KerryImming:

I'm confused by the conflicting information on the state of Magic Girl. If you can't have the game flipping by Expo how can you have all the approvals you need (RoHS at a minimum and likely CE) to ship a game to the EU by year end? I know there's at least one sold into the EU; there may be other countries to deal with also.
To me, it never made sense for Zidware to take on multiple countries of regulations and approvals for a game with a run of only 25.

Much of it is self-declaration stuff... and things like RoHS would be addressed in their supply chain.. its not some test lab they go through for it. The overly optimistic guy would say 'these guys come from an existing manufacturing business.. so they should be aware of this and have addressed it'. The pessimist... says these guys are sketch and will try to skirt what they must and try to minimize their exposure.. after all.. its only a small # of units they need to have imported.

I certainly think declarations are probably low on the risk factors of keeping the project from happening. They've made both manufactured and commercial goods.. these things won't suprise them. But it certainly calls into question their timelines as you say But I imagine there are much bigger blockers

#1643 7 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

but they've already gone on record (multiple times) that they intend to deliver MG this year. Before I would have said, that meant ensure zidware can deliver those games.. but if zidware stays defunct... that means another entity would have to be involved in the transaction.. or maybe MG is part of the wrap-up of zidware? So many angles that are possible...
Would be nice if bill clarified if he was transfered the exclusive right and if that included a license back to zidware.. but he's been mum on most of this. So makes you wonder if more dialogue is happening...

Suffice it to say dialogue is in the works

Must be the blind leading the blind

Putting the cart before the horse

First call should have been to Bill

If the $$$ is there this deal could work out. And I mean a lot of $$$

Why would AP basically assume the liabilities? Because AP is Jpop first and foremost

#1644 7 years ago
Quoted from radium:

You want a pair? It's $550 deposit!

Sold! But first I need to see some briefs with blinky lights.

#1645 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

My hourly rate is $550 an hour. Or call Tiger or RobT so they can explain it to you
My number is 210-687-1333

Sounds like someone can afford to come to Pincade next year

#1646 7 years ago
Quoted from rotordave:

I think I get like $20 lol
rd

You are the richest poor person I know RD

#1647 7 years ago
Quoted from Kiwipinhead:

You are the richest poor person I know RD

One of the smartest people for sure

#1648 7 years ago

Two of you guys need to open a lawyer fight thread lol

11
#1649 7 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Ooo... the spelling police. Always a winner. Is this where I say 'I don't give a #@$%' about typos or insignificant spellings when typing fast and informally? Yeah, I think so.

You would have been better off just dismissing my post as being the spelling police, which would have been fair enough, but when you go on to try and hide the fact that you don't know how to spell "judgment" or "judgments" by saying you don't give a #@$% about "typos" when "typing fast and informally" just makes you look silly and lose credibility. You have misspelled the word 4 times in the last week.

I had actually bit my tongue 3 times previously. The 4th time was just too much for me to take!

Quoted from flynnibus:

but he's not been forced into any bankruptcy.. he's not had any judgements against him.

Quoted from flynnibus:

Zidware doesn't even have any judgements against it yet AFAIK let alone a court ordered dissolution.

Quoted from flynnibus:

Again, the amount of material differences is where the judgement would be made. Not absolutes like you tried to project.

Quoted from flynnibus:

When in reality, we have his entire posting history here to make our own judgement on it.

#1650 7 years ago

Well at least he'll know on the 5th time...

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Pinball Machine
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Pinball Machine
Hey modders!
Your shop name here
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