When i look at that right ramp. It looks like the left slingshot has more chance of making the shot. Waiting for a trained eye to comment. My conclusion is this has not been thoroughly play tested at ALL.

Anyone have further comment on the ramp alignment.

No doubt they will be able to sell games. Eve if someone knows about Jpop, if they were not injured by him and don't know anyone who was injured by him, they have no reason to not buy.

Since they are owned by the same guy who owns the contract manufacturing firm, makes total sense for this to be a separate company. The core business is going to make money on this regardless, even if AP fails and goes under and if it does, any liabilities remain there and not impacting the core business. It will let them learn how to do this, when they are also the client, and lets them show they can do this, without having to deal with a client who might be less patient and it lets them get a better understanding of their cost model for doing this type of work in the future.

Assuming they can pull this off, I suspect we could see some other boutique games come to market, since a method for production is the biggest road block (especially for any licensed property). Problem is that the pre-order model for start-up or boutique firms is dead, so anyone wanting to do this is going to need sufficient capital to get to production and to get production started.

I hope this works out for you guys...

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They threw this thing together in a matter of months, and I doubt any of these newbie carpetbaggers behind this are decent pinball players.

Here's a prediction using the same stupid lingo I keep seeing here...This thing will "shoot" like shit. But if it's crammed with enough gimmicks and light bulbs that might be enough for folks.

We have about a billion pinball manufacturers all of a sudden and people have forgotten one of the main reasons Bally/Williams and Stern put out decent games for so long - factories and design rooms filled with people who are great pinball players and lifetime worshippers at the alter of the silver ball - people who can play others' designs and their own and help with some feedback on how to make the games "shoot great." These pop up entrants into the pinball gold rush don't have this at all, they are just cranking out playfields and code and hoping for the best. That's going to come out in the wash.

Nevertheless, there is a BIG difference here between the Kulek/SkitB situation and the Popadiuk/Zidware situation. Namely, Kulek is in an active Chapter 7 bankruptcy case, and Zidware, Inc. is not. The ground rules for anything in Kulek's case are determined by federal bankruptcy law, and that case is being overseen by a bankruptcy judge. No such constraints currently limit the Zidware parties in interest, but they could easily come into play in the very near future.

The Zidware situation is a legal minefield riddled with potential fraudulent conveyances and preferential transfers, and if American Pinball or the informal "owners group" attempts to move forward with what is effectively an out-of-court restructuring plan for Zidware that trips any of these legal mines, then the whole mess could collapse into bankruptcy as a way of unwinding any suspect transactions.

For example, anything that involves American Pinball owning or benefiting from the assets of Zidware, Inc. without paying for those assets in an arms-length transaction with proper notice to creditors and competitive bidding to maximize value for the Zidware estate could be construed as a fraudulent conveyance and could be nullified by a Chapter 7 bankruptcy trustee filing an avoidance action after the fact. Likewise, any proposed settlement that does not address *all* of Zidware's creditors (e.g., MG depositors, RAZA depositors, AIW depositors, parts suppliers, artists, programmers, taxing authorities, landlords, utility companies) could be construed as a preferential transfer that benefits a small subset of creditors at the expense of the remaining creditors of the Zidware estate and could also be nullified by a bankruptcy trustee filing an avoidance action after the fact.

I'm not suggesting that American Pinball or the informal owners group proceed with open negotiations on Pinside, because that would be incredibly unproductive (albeit entertaining), but they need to be aware of the potential pitfalls of moving forward behind closed doors without getting proper legal advice.

If you put it in the middle of the ramp it looks more like this...

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TOM also has a stepping staircase decal on the center ramp.
TOM center ramp (resized).png

of course, left flipper will do this shot..coz it seems to be compromised with right flipper!

A shot that close to the base of the flipper would go middle playfield. It looks like a totally makable shot to me.

Consumer always benefits from competition .... best of luck to AP

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I am not a representative for American Pinball. I am simply the administrator of the owners group and occasional spokesman.

Except in pinball. Competition normally drives prices down however in pinball it did was the opposite. Prices are so ridiculous people think this is a great deal at 7K.

do you know AP team? is there a great pinball player in Spooky, JJP, Heighway, DP team?
i get the feeling that many people enjoy to be naturally negative and criticize all day long. maybe i am wrong..

For $7k at least it comes with floating gargoyle plastic sentinels.

So true, considering this a good deal as of today because this is where the "market" is, just isn't valid.

Prices have crept up dramatically over the past year.

With all of the pinball producers now, prices won't stay up there, just won't.

A Stern premium for around $6500-6700, proven track record and great themes is the sweet spot.

Need to change the colours, look awful, but it may be a cool game.

Jpop is just designing the layout right? He doesnt have anything to do with american pinball? It would have been a tough call to include him, on one hand hes designed some good tables, on the other he screwed alot of pinheads over...

Not sure how I feel about milk escaping the pop bumpers. But at least it comes with flippers!

It wasn't competition that drove up the prices... but validation of new product offerings from new guys willing to try. JJP proved the home market target should be X - and Stern was forced to follow and adapted their pricing to the new world order as well.

It's like Smartphones vs flip phones. It wasn't Apple's competition that drove prices up, it was Apple proving the market should be X... and others followed as customer interest chased the new guy.

all I need to know now... do the leg bolts have spikes?

Good! Hope your "cautious optimistism" will be rewarded.
So there *might* be a real White Knight in Shining Armor coming for JPop customers rescue!? Amazing.

I have to confess... you made me laugh.

talking about legs.

what's with the wooden rail look with a bolt on each side?

Im beginning to think that only a remake of "Stars LE" would make you happy!

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How can you even compare the two? Cell phones continue to get more advanced with better technology (screens, processors, memory, camera,etc) and current smart phones have come along way from a flip phone.

What new product offering does Stern premium offer over games like TSPP, SM, LOTR, etc that were under 4K nib? We are talking a 3K+ increase for no reason at all besides them figuring if people pay that for JJP games they will pay it for theirs. It's the same reason BM66 LE is priced so high because they see what others are paying now for spooky, DP, Heighway. I highly doubt BM66 has 2K-3K worth of new product offerings compared to recent Stern LE's.

Given all the things he's said, how the Hell did they get Ben Heck to pose for that flyer? The game looks a little rough on there, but we all know how hard it is to Photoshop some actual legs onto a mockup.

What in God's name is a Real Solenoid Quickstep, and why is it good that all American Pinball machines will have them?

Only if it Shoots Great, just like the original! By the way I currently own two Stars, and we are trying to find a third so we can have a IFPA Stars tournament next month.

It can only drive prices up if customers are willing to pay those prices and obviously in pinball they are

Why so negative?

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As soon as I read that, I was wondering the exact same thing.

JJP has Keith Johnson, ranked 238 in the world and #1 in Illinois.
Heighway has 2 decent players on staff as far as I know.
DP, no idea.
Spooky, have taken feedback left and right to make code better for players. Dominos is getting geometry tweaks based on feedback from Nick Lane (sub-350 ranked), Kevin Manne (sub-750 ranked), and Jack Danger (sub-500 ranked). I would imagine this will happen for future titles as well.

100% agree. Stern has been making their games cheaper while increasing the price at the same time. As long as you have people that think Stern walks on water and can do no wrong then Stern will continue to stick it to them. Eventually there will be enough people that get tired of being screwed over with mono color DMDs and cheaper cabinets with power switches mounted in the head to save a couple of bucks while paying 7K + for their next pin.

There's so much bullshit and doubletalk on that ridiculous poorly-rendered photoshopfest flyer.

There's not an ounce of love nor authenticity on that thing - just a bunch of pop up carpetbaggers with no affection for pinball trying to turn a quick buck during the gold rush. The only pinball guy is clearly JPop, and that should scare the shit out of anybody who's thinking of investing $7,000 in this.

When did we switch to talking about BM66/BDKVE? Must have been when I fell asleep...

As long as people pay it, they will charge it. Applies to all of the pin manufacturers, not just Stern. As a consumer - if I don't feel the value is there, I won't pay for it.

I actually think the tide will finally turn against the high NIB prices because of the secondary market. We're already starting to see it happen.

Of course, there will always be a small segment of collectors that are rich enough to absorb any loss without a thought...but, if you've been watching the market over the last several months, quite a few games that would have flown out of collectors' basements in years past are sitting as their price is repeatedly dropped.

One could argue that folks are simply so enamored by all of the NIB offerings that they are simply ignoring the secondary market as they wait for a particular title to start shipping. One could also argue that the industry has sucked enough coin out of the collectors' market that there just isn't enough available money (potentially physical space?) to pay for what one would assume would be a reasonable price for an older game. That really damages the collector's notion of "paying a high price for NIB is okay because you can always get your money back with relatively little loss."

Unfortunately for Stern, as they attempt to increase profits though jacking prices and controlling the business of their distributors and the mod market...they are also diminishing customer loyalty. That's a big deal in a niche consumer market.

Is it too premature to start an American Pinball "Where's the Code" thread yet? Even if this game does make production, what are the chances that the code will be anything more than puddle deep?

Aren't all of Jpop's games relatively shallow? Not to say they aren't fun and beautiful...but they haven't exactly delivered with an overall deepness/difficulty level?? ?

when will the high NIB prices price out operators?

Yeah just as long as you start one for BM66, Aliens, Star Wars, Aerosmith and The Jetsons...

Haven't they already?

Honestly... what % of operators are buying $7,000+ machines to put on route? It's gotta be ridiculously low

Newsflash: Luxury is a price point.. not necessarily a marketable increase in actual product quality or function.

You can cherry pick the hits... but the reality is before JJP, we had CSI, Xfiles, NBA, etc and Stern had laid off the majority of their design staff, etc. They did not see the market as 'feature rich games' but rather games that had to cost less than X and they were struggling to make games at that price point and still get the net margins they needed to survive. A game like TSPP was not what Stern was designing or saw the market as before Jack split off... and was precisely why Jack went his own way.

Apple didn't say 'we need to build a phone at the flip phone price' - Apple didn't say 'the cell phone market price point is Y, and only Y. They instead said 'we are going to build a super computer in your pocket' and believed the market was actually WAY OVER THERE compared to the products on the field at the time.

Apple defined a new price point and the market moved to match it. Just like JJP believed the product the market wanted was a full featured, impressive game.. not a stripped down one.. and that people would pay premium prices. Not just stick to the same 'fit what I could under this operator price point'.

JJP validated that product and price point. Just like Apple validated the smartphone was for everyone at a new price point. The rest of the market moved behind their wake.. in both product and prices.

When your competitor proves people are willing to pay 50% more... you adapt or face leaving tons of money on the table.

Point is again.. it's not increasing the # of players in the market that caused the shift... it was a company validating the product and price point was viable and had plenty of demand. When JJP could PRE-sell hundreds of games based only on an idea... and Stern has trouble moving pins period.. well they finally conceded and changed.

I'm shocked people can look at this PF and think it's going flow just because jpop designed it. Go look at the MG video from pinball news and see how that thing shot. Designers have hits and misses all the time and to think this is automatically a homerun because jpop designed some games in the past is ridiculous. Sometimes less can be more (i.e. Ironman) and jpop might gone overboard trying to pack this full of everything he always wanted to do in the past.

Jack NEVER would have attempted what he did when the economy was in the shitter, which is why Stern was cranking out econocrap like CSI, 24, and NBA.

If you're going to use a "phonegument" it really should be the iPhone versus the Blackberry, Palm and WinMobile phones that were out at that time, not flip phones. Blackberries had browsers but no one used it unless they were somehow forced to / didn't have any other option at the time - I know because I had multiple ones for work.

I can and I did exactly that with the help of many people who believed in me and my Team January 2011 - the economy was in the shitter and nobody was opening any type of manufacturing company - in New Jersey

See you all at Expo with some AWESOME games you can play!

this thread is falling, but it is taking his time on his ride...

reminds me a song..

You mean like.. who on earth would consider announcing a $60k electric car in June 2008? Yeah, that'd be Tesla.. also announcing their huge expansion to build it too. Recessions are when people double down on pivots to take advantage of the downswing.

Jack's thoughts on the market predate his actual start of JJP of course. Leading up to his startup we had even more cost conscious designs like Iron Man, BBH, etc.

so? why AP would not be able to do the same and well advised by a great player?