(Topic ID: 141125)

New ideas for White Water topper?

By Princev911

8 years ago


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  • 483 posts
  • 119 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 months ago by MiniPinHead
  • Topic is favorited by 72 Pinsiders

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#90 8 years ago
Quoted from Laseriffic:

Were not sure yet, we'll see what it does when we finish..lol

the waterfall MUST appear to move, similar to the original. Anything else will come off as a cheap imitation IMHO.

3 years later
#217 5 years ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

You will be a hero in pinball if you are able to duplicate the original waterfall effects and mass produce it for a reasonable price.

if he is smart then he will get paid handsomely for his efforts!

Hell, crappy old beat up but working Whitewater toppers can sell for 1k. A game without a topper is worth 1k less to most.

I would think these will fly off the shelves at $500-700. That assumes they perfectly recreate the effect. It sure looks like he is closer than anyone has ever been.

#219 5 years ago
Quoted from Kneissl:

I think sales will be slow @ $5-700 at least I'd be out.

there is for sure a market for a complete topper. They sell used for 1k if you can find one.
Stern new topper junk sells for 400+
Lots of aftermarket junk for other games sells for 200+

I am curious what people think is a good $$$ spot for a 100% working, brand new, and functions like the original for whitewater topper is?

I think at $500 they sell like hot cakes to those in need.

There were 7000 Whotewaters made. I am guessing the entire market of ones with missing toppers is around 300-500 games.

Whomever makes this is likely to only sell around 100 total units, so for all the effort they should attempt to get paid for the effort IMHO.

-4
#226 5 years ago
Quoted from PinDeLaPin:

No freaking way at $5-700. Damn Whysnow are you his official north american distributor for the product? Who just wanders in and starts pulling bullshit prices out of their ass? Seriously uncool on your part.

what would be uncool, is not paying a dude making a handmade product with tons of skill and effort (remember, multiple previous attempts have failed miserably) a fair market price for his product.

It seems very reasonable to me that he should be able to sell these at $500 easy as they add that value plus more to any game currently missing the topper.

I can understand that if you are looking to buy one that you dont want to hear someone say that, but man to not be honest about the value of a whitewater topper is just disingenuous.

Crappy ones that are nothing more that a poorly produced sticker from Twisted pins sell for $250 easily
ebay.com link: Whitewater Pinball Reproduction Topper Williams White Water

I cant find it now but last original one I saw sold for $750 with the tub and light rig (i.e. plug and play) and it had a crack in the center of the waterfall part.

If he prices these at $500 for a plug and play version they will sell like hot cakes.
If he sells as just the foil portion like twisted pins did and it works like original then $400 easily.

-1
#229 5 years ago
Quoted from Deaconblooze:

I think this is less about trying to help a guy out, and more about trying to protect the value of a pin that you likely just landed in your own collection with the topper. I bought the game for the game, the topper is neat, but I'm not a buyer at gouge prices. I'm just not that worried about any topper.

lol. nope... still looking for a nice whitewater to add to my collection. I am with you that the topper is neat but nothing I care much about in the bigger picture.

Quoted from Deaconblooze:

It doesn't make sense to cite the highest price you've seen them sell for and claim that should be the value of a repro topper. The old argument that "something is worth what people pay" always relies on scarcity. Now, if you're reproducing them and hoping to sell them to dozens (or hundreds) of current owners, you can't really rely on what one desperate person paid on ebay as a pricing method.

Those crappy Twisted Pins examples have been selling easily for $250 or more each time they come up and that is only the sticker which does not have the effect.

Highest price I have seen was 1k for a nice original that was plug and play. Seen many others over the past few years for 500plus.

Supply and demand is all that matters. If someone makes this and they control the market on the supply side. To me, $500 is a very reasonable place to put them up for sale. If they dont sell at that, then always easy to run a special later on. For all the effort put in, these are a 1 and done product. Your demand is possibly 100 people looking to complete their game currently missing a topper.

Quoted from PinDeLaPin:

Again you are trying to dictate the pricing for the seller.

Sorry you are wanting to keep the price down on this for your own personal reasons. Guessing once you add it to your game, you will value your game at at least $500-750 higher. Seems to me like the artist and creator should be getting paid fairly for the effort and skill. I am just discussing what I think it is worth.

I personally would pay $500 for a plug and play topper that works like the original and I dont even have a game to put it on. I just know that someday I will buy a whitewater and having a topper on hand is a nice thing for when a project that is missing a topper comes along.

#232 5 years ago

lol

no thanks and nope.

-3
#240 5 years ago
Quoted from Methos:

Where can we find these sales results that show repeated original toppers go for 1k?

go look around. Report back with what you find.

-3
#242 5 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

You made the comment. It is up to you to prove it.

nah, I linked the one twisted pins sticker from ebay recent sales for him at $250. That was readily available to find as shows you what even a crappy version that does not work costs. toppers are so rare to find that you have to dig deeper to even find old sales. When they do come up they sell quick and cost bucks. He can go dig through the ebay/clist/parts supplier archive if he wants to prove me wrong.

He is just trolling as he knows they rarely come up for sale and cost a bunch.

-3
#246 5 years ago
Quoted from Methos:

I have seen some originals sell, but nowhere near 1k. I just would like to know if in fact that is the value they are pulling, or if your estimation is an exaggeration. Nobody else seems to find one selling for 1k either, unless it was a private party exchange.

What have you seen them sell for?

last one I saw sell was 1k. parts complete original that looked nice

Sorry, not gonna go dig it up for you as it is not worth the effort to me.

I hope anyone that makes a good example prices it at the exact right spot where they sell a boat load of these and make some good cash for their efforts.

Seems obvious that based on responses here and what they go for now (if you can find one) that he will have little problem selling a bunch somewhere in the $350 to $700 range. Since these are all hand made I would suggest shooting high and get more per topper for the individual effort it will take.

Why make 50 toppers and sell them for $350 when you can make only 25 and sell for $700?

-4
#248 5 years ago
Quoted from PinDeLaPin:

And this statement shows your true selfish attitude. @Whysnow "Why make 50 toppers and sell them for $350 when you can make only 25 and sell for $700? As i stated above in another post if the Op sells them and its more than I care to pay so be it at least it will help others. Your statement clearly defines your greedy stance on this matter. You stated before you don't own this game so not real sure why your input even matters. Here is a spoon why don't you take it to another group and stir your pot over there.

they are all HAND made!

I am not telling him to be greedy. I am telling him to go make some money for the product he developed that thus far nobody else has been able to, there is an obvious demand (but limited in total possible sales), and he has put a bunch of sweat equity in to, and each one requires he HAND make it!

If anything you are stirring the pot with wanting the guy to under value his hard work and skill.

How much do you really think these are worth?
How much are you willing to pay?

#254 5 years ago
Quoted from Methos:

Do you remember where you did see it sell? Ebay? Pinside? If you can give us a hint, I'll go looking for it. I admit I've not been lucky so far. You also said "they sell for 1k", so assuming that you have seen more than one sell for that?

that one was on ebay about a year ago (give or take a few months)

They are insanely tough to find it seems.

This is a very needed item.

Quoted from PinDeLaPin:

Then let him set the price for his work. If me tbe buyer find it to be a fair price I will buy 1. Until a working product is produced its pointless to speculate the value of something that doesnt even exist yet.

ok, check.

Based on this my advice is to set it as high as you can. You can always step the price down 6 months later to find out where buyers like PinDelaPin are willing to jump in. I have to think anyone willing to buy a poorly done sticker and bust out the stripper glitter for arts and crafts, would love to buy the real deal

I am just happy to see someone appears to finally be figuring this all out!

#256 5 years ago
Quoted from PinDeLaPin:

Again for someone who doesnt even own the game i really fail to understand your relevancy here. Thats right arts and crafts hour did take place all for a whopping cost of bout $45. Nowhere near the $1000 you have so eloquently stated for an original. Because Oh thats right I do actually own the game and have like others had to make do. After all the negative downvotes you get in every thread you partake one would think you would learn how to turn that trend around. I guess being a cynical busybody comes natural to you though. You have nothing positive to contribute wherever and whatever group you slither into. So keep trolling these groups of people trying to stay positive and Help other fellow pinheads out and you will continue to shine light on yourself for what you truly are. So keep clicking your pink pumps together and wishing for a new shiny white water with a brand new topper while the rest of us are enjoying ours with or without a $1000 topper.

not sure what you are talking about. I am rooting on this guy that is putting a bunch of effort into making a bunch of current and future Whitewater owners very happy!

Even if he sells for $500, he is basically allowing anyone missing a topper to add an instant $250 additional on top of that to the value of their current sans topper game. Seems like that would be a hell of a deal.

I did not realize I need to own the game to have an opinion on a topper. I would personally like to add a whitewater to the collection and assuming this turns out to be a success, then it sure is nice to open up the possibility of finding a game w/o a topper knowing that I could add in the reproduction.

#267 5 years ago
Quoted from rygar:

Hello.
I am really glad that you are willing to reproduce the topper, as I see it from your posts it is a true project of passion. I have an extra topper so I can lend it to you to help you achieving your goal. I will also pay for shipping both ways. Time frame for project completion is not an issue for me.
Thank you for doing this for all Whitewater owners out there.

awesome gesture!!!

1 week later
#300 5 years ago
Quoted from Methos:

I better sell my original for $1k before this hits the market.

it appears imminent...

you may have missed the boat on that one?

2 months later
#355 4 years ago
Quoted from pin-pimp:

i just bought all the twisted pins waterfall topper holograms and the mounting plastic at a going to prison sale. they are tainted by the
twisted pin reputation but lets see if this stuff can be salvaged and used again. bought it all, lots parts, arcades, pins, side art, plastics. truck loads

what all did they have?

what are they going to prison for?

1 week later
#366 4 years ago
Quoted from Gibranx:

Hi everyone, I'll update you on what happened in the last few days.
As you know this project is born for a bet with a friend. Make it an impossible thing, the white water topper.
But I always thought that it was not right that only he had (my friend) one day this topper, but that all the people in the world could complete their pinball machine.
This is why I thought of publishing my results on Pinside.
A few weeks ago I was contacted by Rick of PPS for a legal copyright infringement problem.
As everyone knows, copyright belongs to Williams and therefore to PPS.
Only they can market Williams products.
I explained to Rick my good faith in the success of this project.
Rick was a very helpful person.
He understood the passion I am putting into this project, which is not born to do business.
I, unfortunately, have not yet found a solution for mass production. It means that it would be impossible to make many topper by hand with my method. And then, very importantly, I would never be allowed to sell them myself because of copyright.
Above all, I am a serious person who respects the law and I would never harm Williams!
However there is a problem to solve for everyone, for Williams and for those who own the pinball machine. Being able to recreate this topper in an economical way.
This is why Rick has given me permission to be able to continue my work on Pinside!
Rick was an extraordinary person who didn't want to stop my research work on Pinside. Thanks Mr. Rick from me! (and I believe also from Pinside!)
Obviously every image I will publish on Pinside will always be with the permission of PPS - Williams, but with the clause on my part that I cannot make any sales.
I think that's right.
I think it's the right thing for everyone.
I believe it is right to have a quality product, at a correct price, not at a crazy price.
The right thing for everyone is that I succeed, now, I don't know when, to find an economic system to do mass production.
I don't know if I will succeed, but I can commit myself to doing it.
Especially thanks to the strength that Pinside gives me.
Now my steps will be the following:
Continue my research work on Pinside, publishing with the permission of PPS Williams but without being able to make any sales to individuals or companies.
To finish what I was doing a few weeks ago, to see, meanwhile, the result achieved with the manual technique.
Start studying an alternative production system, for the good of all!

Please dont concern yourself with Rick/ PPS

If you research him, he constantly threatens about copywrite laws even when it is not feasible for him to enforce or legally questionable for many countries.
Do you research and your risk is low/ null.

Keep in mind that Rick is out to make money and that is his #1 concern. He cares little for the community as evidenced by him licensing the previous remake to twisted pins for a junk product that ran off with many peoples money and now is supposedly off to jail for other crimes.

You just keep doing you.

Call ricks bluff and let him even attempt to come after you. I am not sure of the specifics of the laws in Italy and rick holding rights in USA, but needless to say, he is just looking for a buck as usual.
There are many people that have and continue to make stuff overseas with no enforcement.

#367 4 years ago

adding, he has ZERO right to tell you what photos you can publish here!
be warned that what you do publish it is always possible/plausible that he will take the info and steal your hard work to make the product for himself...

-2
#373 4 years ago

Great... now the lawyers and rick show up all looking for a cut...

So long to this project ever seeing production.

Thx for all your hard work on this. If you ever decide to just do it and need someone to help you keep it all hidden from the watchful eyes of those with their hands out but zero skill, them PM me. Happy to help you set it all up.

1 month later
#387 4 years ago

in typical fashion... Rick gets involved and the project stalls or falls apart completely.

Again, my advice to you Gibranx is to just ignore him. He is a super greedy guy that you never want to get into business with and frankly since you don't live in US he has zero jurisdiction over you, your product, or your efforts.

Most importantly he has already stolen money from bunches of pinball collectors with his previous licensed reproductions that turned out like crap, people never received, and yet he was all apart of that.

He likes to talk big, threaten legal action, and mail letter... but the reality is, he will never be able to get a dime from you.

Please just keep down the path you were on to make these, sell them as "art", and tell Rick to pound sand.

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