(Topic ID: 141125)

New ideas for White Water topper?

By Princev911

8 years ago


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  • 505 posts
  • 125 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 62 days ago by Pintopia
  • Topic is favorited by 75 Pinsiders

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There are 505 posts in this topic. You are on page 9 of 11.
#401 4 years ago

With permission from WILLIAMS / PPS
Copyright WILLIAMS / PPS
Not for sale.

White Water handmade topper final

Test

https://vimeo.com/362960190

----------------------------------------------------------

I wanted to make a comparison with the original topper, without hiding anything, to really show what I managed to do.

Maybe it won't be like the original, but with this manual technique I managed to get it.
Maybe I can think of another idea to improve the work.

I take this opportunity to thank you:

www.arcademania.eu where this project was born, thanks to all the staff and forum users who encouraged me!

Thanks to Nik for the photos of the original topper and for giving me the measurements, Sonnycor for the challenge (this gift is for you, my friend!) And all the other members of the arcademania.

I thank Rygar for the original topper, without I could not have greatly improved the work!

I especially thank Mr. Rick of Williams for allowing me to continue and publish my studies on this fantastic topper.

Thanks Enzo for designing the lights sequence from scratch.

In the end, I thank the Pinside community for support, you are great people!

If I forgot someone, I apologize!

Returning to the video I wanted to show the two cascades from various angles.
I still haven't understood if I've done a good job, but it's certainly an alternative solution to the original.

The original waterfall, for me, is always the best, I hope to understand other secrets to perfect the work.

#402 4 years ago
Quoted from Gibranx:

With permission from WILLIAMS / PPS
Copyright WILLIAMS / PPS
Not for sale.
White Water handmade topper final
Test
https://vimeo.com/362960190
----------------------------------------------------------
I wanted to make a comparison with the original topper, without hiding anything, to really show what I managed to do.
Maybe it won't be like the original, but with this manual technique I managed to get it.
Maybe I can think of another idea to improve the work.
I take this opportunity to thank you:
www.arcademania.eu where this project was born, thanks to all the staff and forum users who encouraged me!
Thanks to Nik for the photos of the original topper and for giving me the measurements, Sonnycor for the challenge (this gift is for you, my friend!) And all the other members of the arcademania.
I thank Rygar for the original topper, without I could not have greatly improved the work!
I especially thank Mr. Rick of Williams for allowing me to continue and publish my studies on this fantastic topper.
In the end, I thank the Pinside community for support, you are great people!
If I forgot someone, I apologize!
Returning to the video I wanted to show the two cascades from various angles.
I still haven't understood if I've done a good job, but it's certainly an alternative solution to the original.
The original waterfall, for me, is always the best, I hope to understand other secrets to perfect the work.

Maybe it's just the angle but it appears as if maybe your version is a little too directly reflective where the original disperses the light more. I know those aren't very technical terms and this is far outside my area of expertise but that's the way it looks to me. Yours still looks better than any of the repros I've seen, good job and I hope you can improve it further!

#403 4 years ago

bobukcat I have to do a test with a slightly different material.
In my previous videos on vimeo, I had used another material, which reflected the light differently.

#404 4 years ago

This test helped me to understand how to make the topper, and what mistakes I made. Now I understand what I have to change.

#405 4 years ago

Dam, best looking remake of this topper so far,hands down. I’m sure your still going to tweak things and wish you good luck if you continue on this quest. Great job

#406 4 years ago

I already have in mind what to do. Use the pattern of the last video but on this material, used in a previous test, which better reflects the light and is more similar to the original.

old test
https://vimeo.com/313464648

https://vimeo.com/312918949

https://vimeo.com/312273354

It should be better, I hope!

#407 4 years ago

Wow. Nice!

#408 4 years ago

Looks great! I appreciate what you're doing, and look forward to being able to purchase one if you are ever able to go into production.

#409 4 years ago

really nice....you are very very close. Awesome work.

3 weeks later
#410 4 years ago

Keep at it! Hope you can get this into something we can buy from you. I saw an original whitewater topper at pinball expo this past weekend in Chicago and it was awesome! Wish I had one of those on my whitewater machine!

3 weeks later
#411 4 years ago

Small update work continues ...

Finally I managed to find, crossing my fingers, what I needed.

Next week I can see if these two new materials (unfortunately one is very expensive) can still improve my work on the waterfall, in order to achieve a result similar to 95% of the original.

As usual, as soon as possible, I will update you!

#412 4 years ago

Wow, looks great!

2 months later
#413 4 years ago

bump, and I need a WW topper

#414 4 years ago

lots of work went into this, hope someday we get a finished product out of it, help compensate the time and effort.

#416 4 years ago

Of all the attempts to solve this problem I really thought we were closer than we ever were. Disappointing.

#417 4 years ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

Of all the attempts to solve this problem I really thought we were closer than we ever were. Disappointing.

I know right ! It seems to be on par with curing baldness, not really necessary, cure is always around the corner, would make many happy, huge market for it ! Lol btw I’m not bald

#418 4 years ago

So we're talking about two possible toppers -- one for your head and one for Wh20.

IMO if I can't have them both then I'd want what I already got -- no hair and a nice Wh20 topper.

(btw I really hope this effort comes through for those who need toppers of the Wh20 kind)

#419 4 years ago
Quoted from JimFNB:

So we're talking about two possible toppers -- one for your head and one for Wh20.
IMO if I can't have them both then I'd want what I already got -- no hair and a nice Wh20 topper.
(btw I really hope this effort comes through for those who need toppers of the Wh20 kind)

NM

#420 4 years ago

Is this going to happen?

#421 4 years ago

tagging along. my money is ready to buy one of these. looks almost identical to the original.....GET ER DONE!

#422 4 years ago

I said long ago it would probably never be redone. I think this guy was going in the right direction, but not sure what happened. The guy that did the original topper for Williams died a few years ago, but had said the original plates/drawings where no longer available.

I pursued it and ultimately decided it was not worth the initial investment to get going.

#423 4 years ago

It seems like Rick getting involved killed it.

I get the licensing thing, so I can't necessarily blame him, but he seems to do very little to help push useful projects like this one out to the community.

A few years ago he was fine with some jackwagon making these, presumably because his palm was appropriately greased. That cost myself and other hobbyists hundreds of dollars. So I wouldn't exactly claim that he's protecting the integrity of the IP..

#424 4 years ago

I pm’d gibranx and got a reply, He’s been busy with life. Hasn’t forgotten about the project... not exactly anyone’s day job.

#425 4 years ago

well, poop.

I had a feeling this fizzled-out and won't happen.

15
#426 4 years ago

Unfortunately, I have spent some terrible months because of various situations.
Life is not always beautiful.
I am caring for a sick person.
It is getting worse and I don't know how many months are left to live.

But I haven't forgotten or abandoned the topper.

And even if I fail, I will publish the techniques that I have used and the various ideas, so that someone better than me can make it happen.

That's all.

#427 4 years ago
Quoted from Gibranx:

Unfortunately, I have spent some terrible months because of various situations.
Life is not always beautiful.
I am caring for a sick person.
It is getting worse and I don't know how many months are left to live.
But I haven't forgotten or abandoned the topper.
And even if I fail, I will publish the techniques that I have used and the various ideas, so that someone better than me can make it happen.
That's all.

Very sorry to hear. Hoping for the best for you and those around you.

When it comes down to it, pinball is just a silly hobby, please take care of your loved ones (and yourself) above all else.

#428 4 years ago
Quoted from Deaconblooze:

Very sorry to hear. Hoping for the best for you and those around you.
When it comes down to it, pinball is just a silly hobby, please take care of your loved ones (and yourself) above all else.

Ditto

15
#429 4 years ago

Thanks guys, for the support! Even if life is difficult, I will try with all my strength to keep the promise made.

Life must go on.

I will be like Leonidas as in the epic battle of Thermopylae!

I don't like to delude people or not keep a promise. Never give up, that's my way of thinking.

So I will make sure to update you every 15 days on the topper. Only by doing this, as a sort of progress diary, can I be sure to proceed in steps.
.................................

Picking up where we left off. (sorry for my terrible english).

In these days I will focus on the initial tests to see if mass production is feasible. The test consists in recreating on the computer what will have to be engraved by a laser. So understand what the limits of the laser are and what I can achieve.

I will do quick tests without wasting time to recreate the whole waterfall, but only some details, bubbles and falling water.
If it goes well it would be done and the possibility of obtaining an engraved and printed metal sheet of the waterfall would become reality.

I will not abandon you!

2 weeks later
#430 4 years ago

With permission from WILLIAMS / PPS
Copyright WILLIAMS / PPS
Not for sale.

As I promised you, I will update you on the work in progress.

I'm finishing a small portion test of the topper, to see if I can get it done by a machine. It's all recreated on the computer and it's a grueling job.

I have faithfully recreated the bubbles from the original, now I miss completing the part of the water that falls from above.

This is, in my opinion, the best method to obtain a virtual copy of the original topper, line by line, impossible to recreate by hand with my previous technique.

This means that if I did the math well and if everything goes well, I could achieve a faithful result, I believe 95% of the original.

Next steps:
Finish the water that drops in the 10x10 cm sample test.

Have the test file engraved with various thicknesses / depths to find the correct value that gives the best results, based on the laser.

We'll update in 15 days.
Know that it is a long job to do all this.

20200305_091743 (resized).jpg20200305_091743 (resized).jpg
#431 4 years ago
Quoted from Gibranx:

With permission from WILLIAMS / PPS
Copyright WILLIAMS / PPS
Not for sale.
As I promised you, I will update you on the work in progress.
I'm finishing a small portion test of the topper, to see if I can get it done by a machine. It's all recreated on the computer and it's a grueling job.
I have faithfully recreated the bubbles from the original, now I miss completing the part of the water that falls from above.
This is, in my opinion, the best method to obtain a virtual copy of the original topper, line by line, impossible to recreate by hand with my previous technique.
This means that if I did the math well and if everything goes well, I could achieve a faithful result, I believe 95% of the original.
Next steps:
Finish the water that drops in the 10x10 cm sample test.
Have the test file engraved with various thicknesses / depths to find the correct value that gives the best results, based on the laser.
We'll update in 15 days.
Know that it is a long job to do all this.[quoted image]

This is astonishing work. So cool! I really hope this gets done (even though it will devalue my really nice original topper).

#432 4 years ago

was the original embossed with a die?
Roller or stamped

#433 4 years ago
Quoted from urbanledge:

was the original embossed with a die?
Roller or stamped

I believe metal drum die. Sadly, after production no need to keep it.

#434 4 years ago

The original drawing has some pretty interesting text on it —

https://www.pinballvault.com/product/31-1710-white-water-foil-waterfall-marquee/

7A2B2DE8-7868-4B8D-A79F-33C1E3BE2963 (resized).jpeg7A2B2DE8-7868-4B8D-A79F-33C1E3BE2963 (resized).jpeg
#435 4 years ago

Outside of the obvious, does anyone know the technical details of why the repro attempt from Twisted was a failure? Looking at an example of one it appears that all of the right elements were there to accurately reproduce the original effect, but it was maybe not embossed deeply enough. Was the relief in the die insufficient. or not enough pressure used to adequately press the die into the substrate, or the foil layer itself was not thick enough to capture the full detail from the die? Just wondering because if you look at one of these it does look like it is all there, but just insufficient depth to the pattern pressed into the foil layer. Just wondering if the process they used could be improved upon and result in an accurate repro.

#436 4 years ago
Quoted from ABT12:

Outside of the obvious, does anyone know the technical details of why the repro attempt from Twisted was a failure? Looking at an example of one it appears that all of the right elements were there to accurately reproduce the original effect, but it was maybe not embossed deeply enough. Was the relief in the die insufficient. or not enough pressure used to adequately press the die into the substrate, or the foil layer itself was not thick enough to capture the full detail from the die? Just wondering because if you look at one of these it does look like it is all there, but just insufficient depth to the pattern pressed into the foil layer. Just wondering if the process they used could be improved upon and result in an accurate repro.

Maybe it's not the depth at all.. I haven't looked at one up close, but maybe there's some microscopic texture that helps reflect the light from the lamps? And if you don't have good reflection, it ends up just looking muddy and dark. Could literally be a special kind of foil material that has more shine that has nothing to do with the die.

#437 4 years ago

It is a patented printing process, a real ingenious invention.

The problem is that nobody is able to replicate this type of printing, because whoever invented this technique closed the company definitively, together with the machinery to make them, and who had invented them.

Let's see if I can get them done with a laser, otherwise, the last chance will be to use a process more similar to that used in the patent, by etching with acids.

The problem is precisely to replicate the texture made of infinite impressed marks. That's why I decided to redo them by hand in vector via computer. They will be, from my calculations, 250,000! It will take a long time.

Once I create this blessed file, then, I hope that in the world there is a fucking, even in the future, technology to replicate it. By hand, with the old technique, I did it, I got very close to the original.

If I fail, I will deliver the file to Rick from PPS, as it should be, also because I alone would not have the economic strength and time to travel the world to find a solution.

For now I can hope that the laser test is going well and that it is a possible solution.

10
#438 4 years ago

we are all rooting you on Marco!

#439 4 years ago

Marco, I still say you should check this out I own the WH20 and this album and they look pretty similar reflective wise:

Aphex Twin Warp récords technique is called Procédé Heliophore on silver foil and they put it out last year. Some print press in Europe made this.

9B5FC272-EA59-4459-9E11-5263D24777D0 (resized).jpeg9B5FC272-EA59-4459-9E11-5263D24777D0 (resized).jpeg
#440 4 years ago

Great!
YEEEEEEEEEES!
This is the printed process, yes!

Corresponds exactly to all the information I know!

Thank youuuuuuuuu JAB!

#441 4 years ago
Quoted from Gibranx:

Great!
YEEEEEEEEEES!
This is the printed process, yes!
Corresponds exactly to all the information I know!
Thank youuuuuuuuu JAB!

sweet, find a press, probably in France and sell me one!

#442 4 years ago
Quoted from J67ab:

sweet, find a press, probably in France and sell me one!

let me know if you need french translation

#443 4 years ago

I’ve got several hundred of the white Plastic decal backer Parts and a few of the twisted decals on the white plastic if anyone is looking

#444 4 years ago
Quoted from Gibranx:

Great!
YEEEEEEEEEES!
This is the printed process, yes!
Corresponds exactly to all the information I know!
Thank youuuuuuuuu JAB!

Very cool...this technique looks like it could readily handle printing new and functional White Water decals

#445 4 years ago

Guys, here in Italy they blocked everything until April 3 for the coronavirus. We can only travel from one municipality to another (from city to city) only for serious emergencies or business reasons.

#446 4 years ago

héliophore seems to be the name of the process.
very cool.

3 months later
16
#447 4 years ago

Hi guys
my work on the topper continues.

The vectorization of the topper engravings continues, it's a slow job, fortunately I have found a way to speed up this process, but it will take a few months.

Hope to finish as soon as possible, so I can share the file with Mr. Rick.
In this way it will be easier to have chances on a mass production, greatly facilitating the work for those who manage to produce it.

Before the covid I had the opportunity to speak with an engraver who told me, unfortunately, that laser engraving with certain metals, such as aluminum for example, creates many problems. However, in practice, because of Covid, we no longer felt and did not take a test.

If I can, I'll let you know, even if I don't hope for much. However know that I do not give up, I always think of you and this topper, sooner or later will be done!

All of this is meticulous, almost impossible work.

There is a saying that says, "If nobody has ever done it, then you have to do it."

I don't ask for money for this, I do it for you to help you. You have to be very patient.

If I had to ask for money for all my time dedicated to this project, the project would probably have died, because it would have been a risky investment.

Then I ask you only to be patient and to hope that everything goes well, without haste.

And if someone manages to do it before me, I will be the first to be happy!

1 week later
#448 4 years ago

https://vimeo.com/133017858
Procédé Heliophore

#449 4 years ago

I contacted these French gentlemen. Fingers crossed.

#450 4 years ago

Shit, they haven't been producing since 2012.

"Bonjour Monsieur

Merci de l'intérêt que vous portez à l'Héliophore mais hélas nous ne produisons plus ce procédé depuis fin 2012

Bien votre
Tanneguy de JORNA

IMPRIMHELIO"

I pretend nothing and continue with plan B.

There are 505 posts in this topic. You are on page 9 of 11.

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