(Topic ID: 141125)

New ideas for White Water topper?


By Princev911

4 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 412 posts
  • 105 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 26 days ago by joetechbob
  • Topic is favorited by 63 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 30 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

20190610_213331.jpg
compare1 (resized).jpg
filepsd (resized).jpg
compare4 (resized).jpg
compare2 (resized).jpg
compare3 (resized).jpg
winter preview (resized).jpg
32117733-6F9D-404E-A508-3ACF69DBE755 (resized).jpeg
mystery (resized).jpg
Screenshot_20190124-045918_Gallery (resized).jpg
Gibranx (resized).png
IMG_5665.JPG
IMG_5664.JPG
IMG_5663.JPG
IMG_5662.JPG
IMG_5661.JPG

There are 412 posts in this topic. You are on page 7 of 9.
#301 10 months ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

it appears imminent...
you may have missed the boat on that one?

I think so, my kids college funds just took a hit.

All in good fun. I hope that this project does come to market, hell, I'll snag one.

#302 10 months ago
Quoted from Gibranx:

[quoted image]

Lmao!! Well played sir

#303 10 months ago

Guys, Rygar's topper just arrived, 5 minutes ago.
Thanks again Rygar, I hope to do my best!

I feel like Indiana Jones in front of the Ark of the Covenant ...

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW!!!!!

#304 10 months ago

Teaser

I'm uploading comparison videos ...

whereas the work done to date was without ever having seen the original ...

Can I say that my little waterfalls have a better movement than the original?
It seems so to me!

#305 10 months ago
Quoted from Gibranx:

Teaser
I'm uploading comparison videos ...
whereas the work done to date was without ever having seen the original ...
Can I say that my little waterfalls have a better movement than the original?
It seems so to me!

Wowwee that is a bold statement. Im very excited now for sure to see this.

#306 10 months ago
Quoted from Gibranx:

Can I say that my little waterfalls have a better movement than the original?
It seems so to me!

Oh man.. I want the repro!!

#307 10 months ago
Quoted from Gibranx:

Teaser
I'm uploading comparison videos ...
whereas the work done to date was without ever having seen the original ...
Can I say that my little waterfalls have a better movement than the original?
It seems so to me!

If they are ever available, I’m in for a repro!

#308 10 months ago
Quoted from Gibranx:

Teaser
I'm uploading comparison videos ...
whereas the work done to date was without ever having seen the original ...
Can I say that my little waterfalls have a better movement than the original?
It seems so to me!

You probably already know this but keep in mind that bubbling on the foil can greatly affect the waterfall effect.

#309 10 months ago

first compare test version 5.5 vs original

in this video a think that my little waterfall move more better than original.

now i can study the original topper to make better bubble and central waterfall!

https://vimeo.com/313464648

Added 8 months ago:

I publish these images according to the law in force in Italy
Legge 22 aprile 1941 n. 633 art. 70 - 1 bis

#310 10 months ago

That is trully looking promising- very nice work sir! Some slight differences- perhaps original has longer streaks or maybe I got them mixed up but I like that one better. Amazing to see this after so much noise and promise for so many years with only failure until now.

Congratulations-keep on refining and I can see better than original as a very real possibility.

#311 10 months ago
Quoted from Gibranx:

first compare test version 5.5 vs original
in this video a think that my little waterfall move more better than original.
now i can study the original topper to make better bubble and central waterfall!
https://vimeo.com/313464648

ok damnit, which one is yours.....which one is original?

#312 10 months ago
Quoted from ccbiggsoo7:

ok damnit, which one is yours.....which one is original?

The second one is the original.

Clearly visible.

Very good work but i think you need a little more tuning.

But now you have the original Topper for comparsion and developing.

Keep on doing this great job.

#313 10 months ago
Quoted from Gibranx:

first compare test version 5.5 vs original
in this video a think that my little waterfall move more better than original.
now i can study the original topper to make better bubble and central waterfall!
https://vimeo.com/313464648

Ok you are clearly getting much closer. Keep fine tuning it and I feel you bring home a winner.

#314 10 months ago

Thanks, I'm already at work, experimenting with variations on my technique, taking cues from the original topper!

#315 10 months ago

I illustrate how I want to organize the work in the coming months.
Forgive my bad English!

If I realize everything by hand this waterfall can finally be done.

Now that I understand that I can believe in my abilities and that I have the original to know if I'm doing a good job, phase 2 can start for me.

So the prototype of the previous video is now a draft and I can try my hand in realizing a real topper.

I decided to work this way, as if every topper was a handmade piece of art.

So I will realize them with care and extreme slowness.
On this I can not do anything about it, I have no other solutions that I can experience now.

And experimenting with solutions could make me lose money and years.

Yesterday a printer who has 30 years of experience told me, after seeing the original Rygar topper, who can not understand how they could have made it.

This shows that, sometimes, doing a job with other methods (hands!), Can be better than solutions entrusted to the machines.

The original is printed on a single surface, offset printing + reflecting part of the waterfall. As you know, after 25 years, bubbles are created, the print is deformed.

In my case, however, I will use a plate much more resistant than the original, which therefore can not make bubbles or deform.

On this plate there will be the print (applied or direct, I'm still seeing) of the mountains (maybe even in winter version!)

The curved plastic shape of the topper will be made of steel or similar material. Then I'll have to see how to fix the lights and the card.

The lights work with 16 12V 3W bulbs and a 12v 5a 60w power supply.
The lights are independent of the pinball machine. It's just a game of lights.

The first topper that I will make will be my gift for my friend Sonnycor, a famous Italian pinball restorer, the one who gave me the idea for this challenge. It's also thanks to him if I'm doing all this!

Surely it will be a great beta tester to understand if I have done a good job.

I will continue to publish more and more videos, from various angles, always with the comparison of the original.

This is because I think it's right for everyone to see how work proceeds and that things work, without surprises!

#316 10 months ago
Quoted from Gibranx:

I illustrate how I want to organize the work in the coming months.
Forgive my bad English!
If I realize everything by hand this waterfall can finally be done.
Now that I understand that I can believe in my abilities and that I have the original to know if I'm doing a good job, phase 2 can start for me.
So the prototype of the previous video is now a draft and I can try my hand in realizing a real topper.
I decided to work this way, as if every topper was a handmade piece of art.
So I will realize them with care and extreme slowness.
On this I can not do anything about it, I have no other solutions that I can experience now.
And experimenting with solutions could make me lose money and years.
Yesterday a printer who has 30 years of experience told me, after seeing the original Rygar topper, who can not understand how they could have made it.
This shows that, sometimes, doing a job with other methods (hands!), Can be better than solutions entrusted to the machines.
The original is printed on a single surface, offset printing + reflecting part of the waterfall. As you know, after 25 years, bubbles are created, the print is deformed.
In my case, however, I will use a plate much more resistant than the original, which therefore can not make bubbles or deform.
On this plate there will be the print (applied or direct, I'm still seeing) of the mountains (maybe even in winter version!)
The curved plastic shape of the topper will be made of steel or similar material. Then I'll have to see how to fix the lights and the card.
The lights work with 16 12V 3W bulbs and a 12v 5a 60w power supply.
The lights are independent of the pinball machine. It's just a game of lights.
The first topper that I will make will be my gift for my friend Sonnycor, a famous Italian pinball restorer, the one who gave me the idea for this challenge. It's also thanks to him if I'm doing all this!
Surely it will be a great beta tester to understand if I have done a good job.
I will continue to publish more and more videos, from various angles, always with the comparison of the original.
This is because I think it's right for everyone to see how work proceeds and that things work, without surprises!

So your topper won't use the original lighting ?

#317 10 months ago
Quoted from bigd1979:

So your topper won't use the original lighting ?

I want to be clear with everyone
As already said I'm doing this because born of a bet, a game, a challenge.

When I ordered the original bulb, to make me prepare the card by my friend Enzo, by mistake, or because they were not available, I never understood, I sent these to 12v.

I did not want to waste time and I had the board prepared myself.

If you want you could also use the original light bulbs, although I think the result of these is excellent.
But I should have a new board created by Enzo.

The important thing is that they are incandescent and that they move in a certain sequence.

Now I do not know whether to use those from 14v is a really convenient advantage.

#318 10 months ago
Quoted from bigd1979:

So your topper won't use the original lighting ?

The topper works by reflecting light from different angles as multiple bulbs turn on and off in a fixed pattern. The results should be independent of source of light with one caveat.

I expect LEDs to give sub-optimal results like LEDs used with the original topper. Incandescent lights will provide a more aesthetically pleasing result (less harsh, less directional compared to incandescents).

Great work.

#319 10 months ago

Zene I will tell you more, if there was a way to get the lights that move physically, you would get an even smoother movement .... in theory doubling the lights you should reach fluency at all.
Like my tests done with a light bulb in my hand.

I could also experiment, but I do not want to waste time on something else!

#320 10 months ago
Quoted from zene10:

The topper works by reflecting light from different angles as multiple bulbs turn on and off in a fixed pattern. The results should be independent of source of light with one caveat.
I expect LEDs to give sub-optimal results like LEDs used with the original topper. Incandescent lights will provide a more aesthetically pleasing result (less harsh, less directional compared to incandescents).
Great work.

I didn't say anything about leds? Just if the new topper wld work off the existing wh20 lighting system which most people still have on their pins. I see no point in changing everything when many just need the topper. I'm assuming if the topper works with op 12v setup than it will work fine with the original setup with incandescent bulbs.

#321 10 months ago

yes, my topper work with 12v incandescent bulb and, but not tested, I think sure it work with 14v #194 bulb.

The light moviment illusion is the same.

led I dont think work, because the led light is a ray and not a light sphere (incandescent bulb).
in this case (led) the waterfall effect is not visible on any angle, but only to front view.

and if you see from down to top when you play pinball, the waterfall don't move

1 week later
#322 10 months ago

Here I am, I took days off from the project, a bit 'I had a fever, a bit' I had to think about the family.

After the last full immersion it was right for me to take a moment, to organize the ideas on what to do ...

I have just contacted a printer, to do a good job on the graphic part of the waterfall, that of the rocks.
In the next days I will see to meet with him, to show him everything.

First a small premise.
I do not like things that do not last over time or those products that then break. I believe that if something is done well, with the right materials, the objects created by man can last many years.

As I had already mentioned, I will use a slab that will last forever, which will not make bubbles or folds. The original topper, on the other hand, is printed on a layer more similar to paper or cardboard, with the embossed layer being further imprinted, which makes the waterfall move through a patented technique that is very difficult to reproduce.

So, if everything goes according to my plans, I will get a waterfall on a practically indestructible material, which will last, I hope, for centuries. So, even when I'm gone, these topper will continue to exist for the next generations of pinball lovers. At least I hope all this!

I ask you the patience to wait the time I need to do all this, I think a couple of months.

Then I would like to understand one thing:
some of you, I thought I understood, only need the curved part with the waterfall above, others need the sequence of lights and the waterfall. It's so true?

#323 10 months ago

Many White Water machines do not have the topper anymore.

This usually means the entire top is gone (the clear dome, the waterfall and the light strip).

People that do have the topper usually have creases (folds) in the foil and graphics. The graphics are usually faded.

Does this answer your question?

#324 10 months ago

what zene10 says - and you should also consider only sell the sticker if this is possible at all, as this will be the smallest part needed on some of the machines.

Keep the good work up...you can do it, molto grazie amici!

#325 10 months ago

Thanks Zene you were very clear!
So, if I understand correctly, there are also those who need only full adhesive ....

#326 10 months ago
Quoted from Gibranx:

Thanks Zene you were very clear!
So, if I understand correctly, there are also those who need only full adhesive ....

I have the clear topper dome and the lights just need the white water decal that you are trying to reproduce.

#327 10 months ago
Quoted from Gibranx:

Thanks Zene you were very clear!
So, if I understand correctly, there are also those who need only full adhesive ....

In the past, a decal was made that did not cover the foil waterfall. People that had faded colors could apply the decal around the existing foil waterfall.

I can not speak for other people, but I would be interested in a full replacement decal (the color graphics part plus the foil waterfall part as one piece).

#328 10 months ago

My intentions are these:
1 - make the sticker complete with graphics and waterfall plus a winter modded version designed by me.

2 - also make a version with the curved structure, in metal, with the adhesive already mounted

3 - as above complete with light kit (excluding power supply for those located in the USA, because in Europe we have a different frequency of electric current)

#329 10 months ago
Quoted from Gibranx:

My intentions are these:
1 - make the sticker complete with graphics and waterfall plus a winter modded version designed by me.
2 - also make a version with the curved structure, in metal, with the adhesive already mounted
3 - as above complete with light kit (excluding power supply for those located in the USA, because in Europe we have a different frequency of electric current)

I am very impressed with what I have seen so far. I was lucky enough to purchase an NOS decal from another collector in February of 2009 to pair with an NOS white plastic stand that displays the actual decal.

As such I don't need a topper for my WH2O, but upon seeing your excellent work I would likely be in on purchasing a decal from you. The winter modded version is very intriguing to me as is the curved metal stand.

Gord

1 week later
#330 9 months ago

Man this is awesome, I need a new decal

#331 9 months ago

As always, I update you on the project.
I talked to a printer friend, for the speech of the graphic part to be printed (the background with the mountains).
Soon, in a few weeks, I will carry out the first tests.
This is because I will use a sheet of aluminum rigid but at the same time thin and flexible on which I will then go to manually realize the waterfall. It is not something that can be torn with your hands!

By printing directly on the aluminum the problem of bubbles and ripples that afflict the topper over the years will disappear forever.

Because even if, after several years of humidity, the adhesive was detached, the design of the waterfall would remain intact and it would be enough to replace the double-sided adhesive tape.

I would rather avoid other printing solutions that could give problems over the years.

#332 9 months ago

Are we sure the printing process is dead? This is a Procédé Heliophore record I bought last year. To me it seems to have the same qualities as the WH2O topper.

https://www.discogs.com/Aphex-Twin-Collapse-EP/release/12512500

32117733-6F9D-404E-A508-3ACF69DBE755 (resized).jpeg
#333 9 months ago

If you have the original topper you can make comparisons with this vinyl. Many printed things can look like topper, but then they are not the same thing.

I have an email from the business sales manager of the company who had invented this type of printing and assured me that they have closed that business branch forever and nobody else can make those prints. (as the machines have also made them, I assume). They just said good luck with the project!

If I did not tell the truth, why was this topper not reproduced in recent years? In my opinion, up until 7/8 years ago there was a hope, since the company is still in business. Twisted Pins, probably also turned to a branch of their company in Germany, at the time existing (from the research I did). Probably something went wrong, in the sense that they certainly made some mistakes in the construction phase, or they wanted to use a hybrid system.

But of this I can not be sure, it may also be that at that time, turned to another printing company in Germany that had nothing to do with the correct method of printing.

If then tomorrow morning a company could make the topper I would be the first happy for you all and I would have a lot of free time to devote myself to other projects!

#334 9 months ago

Any idea how you'll price it yet?

#335 9 months ago

I still have not done any kind of calculation on the cost. The materials used are obviously not gold-plated! But for me it's a hobby, I do not have a company.
I have to understand how many hours of work it takes to finish one and then decide a right price that suits me and for you.

Certainly not a price like 800 dollars but not even 80 dollars!
I hope to succeed in a range between 150 and maximum 450 euros, considering in this range also the full version of lights.

But it's just an idea, because, frankly, I want to concentrate on making it and doing it well. There will be time to decide!

Then if you want to suggest your opinions I will be happy to listen to you!

I do not know if I give the idea! I would like everyone to have it, but also to be rewarded for my efforts and sacrifices, especially for the time that I take away from my family.

If it were possible for me to make it in series not by hand, for sure it would cost the whole half ....

Added 8 months ago:

Obviously this project is born as a bet with a friend.
So I consider it a private project for educational purposes.
It is not my intention to infringe on any copyright or profit.

#336 9 months ago

Somewhere between 150 and 450 sounds cool. I like the aluminum plate decal. No bubbles!

#337 9 months ago
Quoted from Gibranx:

If you have the original topper you can make comparisons with this vinyl. Many printed things can look like topper, but then they are not the same thing.
I have an email from the business sales manager of the company who had invented this type of printing and assured me that they have closed that business branch forever and nobody else can make those prints. (as the machines have also made them, I assume). They just said good luck with the project!
If I did not tell the truth, why was this topper not reproduced in recent years? In my opinion, up until 7/8 years ago there was a hope, since the company is still in business. Twisted Pins, probably also turned to a branch of their company in Germany, at the time existing (from the research I did). Probably something went wrong, in the sense that they certainly made some mistakes in the construction phase, or they wanted to use a hybrid system.
But of this I can not be sure, it may also be that at that time, turned to another printing company in Germany that had nothing to do with the correct method of printing.
If then tomorrow morning a company could make the topper I would be the first happy for you all and I would have a lot of free time to devote myself to other projects!

Nothing but respect and support for you Gibranx. It is a lot of work and I commend you for it.

#338 9 months ago

Jab, thank you!
I am convinced that if any industrialist in the printing world wanted to make this topper, without a shadow of a doubt, with a minimum study perhaps it would succeed. At most it could acquire the company that was able to make it happen.

But I think we need too much money for something like that and nobody would make such a crazy investment.

Then everyone would like to achieve something with minimum effort and maximum profit.

If I showed you how I realize them I would think that I am crazy, because with my left hand I hold a magnifying glass and with my right hand I work. It's like those works of the past, like making a painting, a miniature or making a Japanese sword.

Also the original topper has been made (a part of the process of realization of the master) manually.
I, however, for each topper, it is as if I should always do a new master.

This is why no one has ever succeeded.

#339 9 months ago

Im working on it...
winter edition topper, i hope you like it!

winter preview (resized).jpg Added 8 months ago:

I publish these images according to the law in force in Italy
Legge 22 aprile 1941 n. 633 art. 70 - 1 bis

#340 9 months ago
Quoted from Gibranx:

Im working on it...
winter edition topper, i hope you like it!
[quoted image]

Most impressive.

I’m another WH20 owner with no topper. Fingers crossed you can make this happen. Keep up the good work.

2 weeks later
#341 9 months ago

Any new progress to report?

#342 9 months ago

next days start printing.
because for 95% I almost finished restoring the graphic part for printing.
I had to take several pictures and touch up the folds and ruffles of the original that gave me Rygar.
So I think I'll finish this evening and in the week I can send the file for the press.

It took me more time because my daughter was not well. But now the high fever has passed. (40°C...!)

#343 9 months ago
Quoted from JimFNB:

Yeah, I'd really love to hear the story behind the topper from Dennis Nordman or someone who was there. I can't think of another machine where this done, so how did they even figure out to use stamped foil, where did they make it, how many prototypes did they go through, etc. I've looked but haven't found this in depth anywhere online. There are loads of stories out there, though, about remaking the topper and then they just fade away after giving up.

The Pinball Magazine featuring Dennis Nordman gives the whole story on how the topper came together and put into production.

#344 9 months ago
Quoted from Blitzburgh99:

The Pinball Magazine featuring Dennis Nordman gives the whole story on how the topper came together and put into production.

but i don't think explain how its made!
if you have the magazine post this interview for us!

#345 8 months ago

So is there hopes of this repro happening? The video looks fantastic so I hope it does happen.

1 week later
#346 8 months ago

Yes, there is a hope!

I update you on the latest news.
In about ten days the first test will be ready concerning the design printed directly on the metal sheet.
There was a delay of the ink supplier. Sorry!

  Only the graphic will be printed (it is not a pvc sticker, otherwise it would have been ready for some time!), Then I will have to manually realize the part related to the movement of the waterfall.

If the test goes well, I can complete the job for my friend!

And finally make the first topper after so many years!

1 week later
#347 8 months ago
Quoted from Gibranx:

Yes, there is a hope!
I update you on the latest news.
In about ten days the first test will be ready concerning the design printed directly on the metal sheet.
There was a delay of the ink supplier. Sorry!
  Only the graphic will be printed (it is not a pvc sticker, otherwise it would have been ready for some time!), Then I will have to manually realize the part related to the movement of the waterfall.
If the test goes well, I can complete the job for my friend!
And finally make the first topper after so many years!

Following

#348 8 months ago

see below

#349 8 months ago

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This project was born as a bet with a pinball restorer friend.
So this is my work of study and research on how the effect of the fall of water from the waterfall was achieved.
  The images and videos published are for research, study and sharing purposes.

In Italy there is a law that allows me to publish copyrighted material for this purpose.

I publish these images / videos according to the law in force in Italy
Law of 22 April 1941 n. 633 art. 70 - 1 bis.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A little update.
I did carry out tests with a screen printing.
Now, having the original rygar topper, I was able to make an honest comparison. Screen printing, as you know, was once used to decorate pinball and arcade. But it is a type of printing that offers a lower resolution than an offset or digital print.
You will have understood that I am a very stubborn and fussy person ...
Screen printing has the advantage of lasting over time, of not making bubbles, etc.
When I say time I think of many years. But I am not satisfied with the aesthetic result. If you look at it from about 2 meters it's ok. If you look closely, you see the print screen.
Screen printing is a manual printing process and therefore cannot be as precise as digital or offset printing.
For this reason I will have another digitally printed test done with a cutting plotter on 3M film, which should guarantee me a better aesthetic result.
I tell you these things because photos often deceive people's eyes, and this is not the right thing.
Also because those who have never seen the original might think that it's a great job.
Then maybe for many it will be fine, I don't know that.
We say that screen printing has an aspect of "old style" printing.
Anyway, I'm waiting for this test on 3M film, so I can decide what's best.
I publish the photos with a comparison between serigraphy and offset of the original.
Obviously the engraving process is still missing on mine.

I also enclose an image resulting from the work of scans of Rygar's original topper.

I have a 600 dpi cmyk file to which I made the necessary color corrections.
Unfortunately, the screen printing did not give me a good resolution and chromatic response.

filepsd (resized).jpgcompare1 (resized).jpgcompare2 (resized).jpgcompare3 (resized).jpgcompare4 (resized).jpg
#350 8 months ago

As for the movement of the waterfall, I managed to perfect it, including the bubbles. All this thanks to the topper who loaned me Rygar.
As soon as I finish this work I will publish a video.

I am very happy with this improvement, now it is even more similar to the original.

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
From: $ 39.00
Cabinet - Toppers
Full Tilt Pinball LEDs
There are 412 posts in this topic. You are on page 7 of 9.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside